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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    What makes you think direct democracy creates equal societies. You might want to look at polling on issues like immigration, welfare, sentencing and foreign aid before thinking that society would anything like the one you envisage.



    This is sensationalism, not supporting referenda is very different from shutting the people out completely.
    Yes I know it would lead to tribalist problems and that people would want tougher sentences and want people dying all the time which again is awful but using reasons like' people don't know what's good for them' is pretty shocking.

    It's what he seems to be suggesting.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Yes I know it would lead to tribalist problems and that people would want tougher sentences and want people dying all the time which again is awful but using reasons like' people don't know what's good for them' is pretty shocking.

    It's what he seems to be suggesting.
    Well they don't to be fair. For all the faults of the political class we can at least be reasonably sure that most MP's are more informed than most of their constituents.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Well they don't to be fair. For all the faults of the political class we can at least be reasonably sure that most MP's are more informed than most of their constituents.
    But whos truth is right? Just because they are more informed about the truth you believe in doesn't mean it's the right thing. With societal issues society as a whole should decide not a tiny political class.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    But whos truth is right? Just because they are more informed about the truth you believe in doesn't mean it's the right thing. With societal issues society as a whole should decide not a tiny political class.
    You're like Jaden Smith.
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    You're like Jaden Smith.
    Who?
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Who?
    Sometimes your comments make me think of his tweets.

    Examples: http://uk.complex.com/music/2014/12/...-life-lessons/
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    Sometimes your comments make me think of his tweets.

    Examples: http://uk.complex.com/music/2014/12/...-life-lessons/
    I really don't like most of his views on love I can see how you might see some similarities though.
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    (Original post by nebelbon)
    Sometimes your comments make me think of his tweets.

    Examples: http://uk.complex.com/music/2014/12/...-life-lessons/
    That was sneaky, a classic Aph! :laugh: At first I didn't recognise the sarcasm but then, after reading the first two tweets, everything has made sense.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    People don't know what's best for them? So what? Should we get rid of these nasty elections which give people who don't know a thing at power over their lives. Should we just appoint politicians from within our circle? It's not often that we disagree ray but here I have to say I find your opinion rather abhorrent. We already established that everyone seves their own purposes even politicians. So if that is the case surely having more people having more say and thus more opinions being represented is better than having a tiny minority of the population having all the power. Right now about 0.0001% of the population have all the power!!! That is hardly an advanced equal society.
    That's a hyperbole and you know it. The entire population wield the power when they pick their government on polling day. They have their say when they join parties and vote on policies and when they sign petitions and make their voices heard. But the population simply can't and probably don't even want to make every decision. Again - who's going to vote in the monthly referendum to decide the interest rates? Who's going to turn up for the public debate on social housing reform for carer accommodation? You can have a more equal society without equally spreading the 'power'. Don't forget that each person wielding an infinitesimally small amount of influence is each person actually achieving nothing.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    That's a hyperbole and you know it. The entire population wield the power when they pick their government on polling day. They have their say when they join parties and vote on policies and when they sign petitions and make their voices heard. But the population simply can't and probably don't even want to make every decision. Again - who's going to vote in the monthly referendum to decide the interest rates? Who's going to turn up for the public debate on social housing reform for carer accommodation? You can have a more equal society without equally spreading the 'power'. Don't forget that each person wielding an infinitesimally small amount of influence is each person actually achieving nothing.
    Sell our power is picking the best out of a bad bunch and we even have to vote tactically on top of that because we can't choose who we want because other people want but the same way we will thanks to 1st past the post? petitions mean absolutely nothing and you know it. The petitions need 100,000 signatures to have the chance of being debated in the comments (they don't even have to be debated) and on top of that these petitions are censored and only certain thing are allowed to be asked for. How is that democracy?!
    politicians don't even know what's best for us Either, they aren't special they don't have skills that no one else has. The chancellor has a degree in history!! That suddenly make some qualified to run the country's accounts?! I think you're seriously mistaken there.
    and I think you'd be surprised at the amount of people whose actually want to get involved given the option.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    Sell our power is picking the best out of a bad bunch and we even have to vote tactically on top of that because we can't choose who we want because other people want but the same way we will thanks to 1st past the post? petitions mean absolutely nothing and you know it. The petitions need 100,000 signatures to have the chance of being debated in the comments (they don't even have to be debated) and on top of that these petitions are censored and only certain thing are allowed to be asked for. How is that democracy?!
    politicians don't even know what's best for us Either, they aren't special they don't have skills that no one else has. The chancellor has a degree in history!! That suddenly make some qualified to run the country's accounts?! I think you're seriously mistaken there.
    and I think you'd be surprised at the amount of people whose actually want to get involved given the option.
    You seem to think the general population are a better bunch than our duly elected representatives. If you have a problem with FPTP then campaign for AV or PR (though the latter would mean virtually all MPs who don't come from their constituencies).

    Osbourne is a colossal fool but economic decisions can't be made by the population. Its not possible or desirable. Who's going to turn up for the monthly referendum on the interest rate? And of those people who will vote with the countries long-term interest and in mind and not their next mortgage payment?

    The argument you've put forward suggests you just want to hand over government to a bunch of academic experts. Its in no way an argument for politics without politicians. MPs aren't perfect - but are you or I?

    I think you'd be surprised by who screwed the country would be if we became a stateless society.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    You seem to think the general population are a better bunch than our duly elected representatives. If you have a problem with FPTP then campaign for AV or PR (though the latter would mean virtually all MPs who don't come from their constituencies).
    I know that generally groups make better decisions then small people because they have more resources and more knowledge to draw from.

    Osbourne is a colossal fool but economic decisions can't be made by the population. Its not possible or desirable. Who's going to turn up for the monthly referendum on the interest rate? And of those people who will vote with the countries long-term interest and in mind and not their next mortgage payment?
    cell is that Beth her then alterations being made by a man he's never had a mortgage in his life? And why do you hate people so much? You seem to think they need to be nannied all the time and I can't look after themselves. That attitude is quite frankly deplorable!

    The argument you've put forward suggests you just want to hand over government to a bunch of academic experts. Its in no way an argument for politics without politicians. MPs aren't perfect - but are you or I?
    I don't know where you get that opinion from although I would say handing over to bunch of academic expert should be far more desirable than our current catastrophe of career politicians. Who really know nothing about anything and only care about where the next photos coming from and not what's right.

    I think you'd be surprised by who screwed the country would be if we became a stateless society.
    and I think she'd be surprised at how well it would work.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    I know that generally groups make better decisions then small people because they have more resources and more knowledge to draw from.
    Groups in the millions? Nothing at all would happen.

    cell is that Beth her then alterations being made by a man he's never had a mortgage in his life? And why do you hate people so much? You seem to think they need to be nannied all the time and I can't look after themselves. That attitude is quite frankly deplorable!
    I don't hate people, I love them - and want to save them from the incredibly pointless exercise of going to the polling station every month to decide wether or not to lower interest rates by 0.5% Heck, I won't even turn up for those votes.

    I don't know where you get that opinion from although I would say handing over to bunch of academic expert should be far more desirable than our current catastrophe of career politicians. Who really know nothing about anything and only care about where the next photos coming from and not what's right.
    Now that's dictatorship talk right there.

    Unless we'd be selecting them via a vote? Why not pick one for each section of the country in a general election? Though we might just end up with a legislative chamber full of oxbridge graduates. :rolleyes:

    and I think she'd be surprised at how well it would work.
    Who's she? :confused: The Queen?
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Groups in the millions? Nothing at all would happen.
    not at all! people can work together if they want to.



    I don't hate people, I love them - and want to save them from the incredibly pointless exercise of going to the polling station every month to decide wether or not to lower interest rates by 0.5% Heck, I won't even turn up for those votes.
    to be fair the commons is empty in most of the debates anyway ans MP's get whipped so they can't represent their constituents even if they are there and half of them are off pandering to big buisiness sometimes I could swear we live in a dictatorship.



    Now that's dictatorship talk right there.

    Unless we'd be selecting them via a vote? Why not pick one for each section of the country in a general election? Though we might just end up with a legislative chamber full of oxbridge graduates. :rolleyes:
    i said it'd be better, not what I want though. If we had TV channels dedicated to environmental, economic, social, political ect. Debates we could really inspire a nation!!! People would care, there would always be a debate which resonated close to someone.
    Who's she? :confused: The Queen?
    She is you, and she sits on a thown of lies lies about how peope, can't even be trusted to brush their teeth correctly.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    how peope, can't even be trusted to brush their teeth correctly.
    This is just stupid now. I'm fairly libertarian myself but to skew what Ray said into that kind of comment is sensationalist nonsense. No one here is saying we need the government to tell us how to brush our teeth.
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    (Original post by The Financier)
    This is just stupid now. I'm fairly libertarian myself but to skew what Ray said into that kind of comment is sensationalist nonsense. No one here is saying we need the government to tell us how to brush our teeth.
    Yes, we are all sensationalist at times. Although there is a proper tooth brushing technique.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    cell is that Beth her then alterations being made by a man he's never had a mortgage in his life?
    (Original post by RayApparently)
    I don't hate people, I love them - and want to save them from the incredibly pointless exercise of going to the polling station every month to decide wether or not to lower interest rates by 0.5% Heck, I won't even turn up for those votes.
    The interest rate is set by a panel of economists at the Bank of England, not the Chancellor. The Bank of England controls nearly every aspect of monetary policy while the Treasury controls fiscal policy, and the Chancellor decides how much money to spend on things after taking advice from economists.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    The interest rate is set by a panel of economists at the Bank of England, not the Chancellor. The Bank of England controls nearly every aspect of monetary policy while the Treasury controls fiscal policy, and the Chancellor decides how much money to spend on things after taking advice form economists.
    I Did wonder that but not being fully aware of what the chancellor does I didn't want to question him.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    not at all! people can work together if they want to.
    A referendum is announced on the change of interest rate. It is publicised and ran at the tax payer's expense. Once the vote's been counted too much time has passed for the fiscal fine-tuning to be effective. Furthermore, very few people cared enough to turn up. The people who did either didn't know all that much about interest rates but had bought into some propaganda or voted based on what would be best for their personal situation and not the country's. In the end everyone is worse off and angry that no one's there to do the job for them so they can get on with their happy, prosperous lives.

    You talk in platitudes like 'people can work together' without actually considering any of the realities of what your proposing. You can't sweep reality under the rug with 'work together' and 'you'd be surprised at the number of people who want to get involved'.

    to be fair the commons is empty in most of the debates anyway ans MP's get whipped so they can't represent their constituents even if they are there and half of them are off pandering to big buisiness sometimes I could swear we live in a dictatorship.
    Listen to what your saying - the people who's job it is to vote on legislative matters aren't interested in half of them - most of these people studied law and are extremely competent - its their job that they're paid to do. Now tell me why the average joe does this job better? You know the adage 'too many chefs spoil the broth'? Well 30 million chefs royally screw up the broth.

    Not to mention that many MPs defy the whip with no consequence (usually due to their own conscious and not on behalf of their constituents as a constituency is rarely against a particular Commons issue except for things like HS2) and most people vote for the party not the individual so the 'party-line' is what the constituents actually want.

    i said it'd be better, not what I want though. If we had TV channels dedicated to environmental, economic, social, political ect. Debates we could really inspire a nation!!! People would care, there would always be a debate which resonated close to someone.
    Politics isn't that hard to learn about. LBC, politics on the BBC, the entire internet, the newspapers and Parliamentary proceedings on TV. You can't just shove politics down people's throats. There simply isn't the demand for the kind of apocalypse you want to bring about.

    If an issue resonates with someone they can write to their MP - then they'd have more chance of getting their voice heard than as one voter in the never ending referendum.

    She is you, and she sits on a thown of lies lies about how peope, can't even be trusted to brush their teeth correctly.
    I'm pretty sure I didn't go out of my way to abolish myself last term...

    People can brush their teeth as they please.
    Representative democracy brings about good change for people. Yours is the suggestion that would end in tyranny and a horrible country to live in.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    The interest rate is set by a panel of economists at the Bank of England, not the Chancellor. The Bank of England controls nearly every aspect of monetary policy while the Treasury controls fiscal policy, and the Chancellor decides how much money to spend on things after taking advice form economists.
    I am fully aware of this - but Mark Carney wasn't elected, I'm showing how direct democracy falls apart when the small, technical but hugely important decisions arise.
 
 
 
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