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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    x
    Brother/sister, I have a genuine question from myself - this is a question seeking a simple answer, not at all intended for further or detailed discussion:

    Do you believe that ahlu-Sunnah wal-jama'ah unanimously believe that Allah ta'ala is restricted by time, or by space? I've seen posts that suggest this in the past, so was wondering.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    Pray for me, exam in the morning
    Haha pray for meee toooo
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    (Original post by ash92:))
    Brother/sister, I have a genuine question from myself - this is a question seeking a simple answer, not at all intended for further or detailed discussion:

    Do you believe that ahlu-Sunnah wal-jama'ah unanimously believe that Allah ta'ala is restricted by time, or by space? I've seen posts that suggest this in the past, so was wondering.
    Peace and blessings be with you,

    As you are a moderator, i know i am safe in replying.

    Before answering your question, let me give a little bit of a background of myself. Half my family are from the ahlul-sunnah-wal-jamaah, i am living with my ahlul-sunnah family right now - and they are a moderately informed group of people. I'm also looking to get married to someone who was also part of the ahlul-sunnah wal jamaah. I also thoroughly enjoy the works of brother Hamzah Tzortis, and regularly united with my sunni brothers against atheistic ideologies and to prove the existence of God on these boards.

    You see, part of my extensive research into Islam came when i was having doubts at one point - years ago. I have done absolutely pain-staking research on this very issue, because Taweheed is the foundation of Imaan.

    I understand one thing, the ahlul-sunnah wal-jamaah do not believe Allah swt is bound by time or space. However, there are things, and i am saying this having ahlul-sunnah family that i contest and think are problematic, maybe you can discuss this with me on a different thread.

    Before i go on, let me also say i only affirm what Allah swt says in his own book. But i feel this concept is distorted.

    1. The idea Allah swt is 'above' the throne- and taking this literally. I.E Allah swt is literally above his throne. Allah swt is the one who created 'where', he existed before there was a 'where' and 'how'. Therefore it is not tenable to begin to describe him by means of direction. Before he created the 'throne' - where was he? If one believes he is above the throne it means he created it under him, therefore was already contained within an area where he was limited by direction.

    2. The idea Allah swt literally descends to the lowest heaven. Now, many among the ahlul-sunnah-wal jamaah refute those, mostly in the salafi group (correct me if i am wrong) who believe Allah swt literally descends, but we must not ask how. They state Allah swt can not be limited by movement, by time, by literally going from X to Y, he is free of all such need.

    3. The idea Allah swt has a Shin or tangible parts, but we must not affirm or deny what they are, merely accept he has a shin. If you look at the arabic, it is a metaphor to men severe punishment, and many translations reflect it, and such a interpretation is dangerous. Allah swt has no limited form, confine, shape - even if we say it is not like ours, it is disingenuous as we've likened it literally speaking.

    4. The idea on the day of judgment , as in Sahih Al Bukhari , he will change forms and then put his foot into hell. Even if we state his foot is not like our foot and w must only affirm he has a unique foot we can not imagine, we still divide Allah swt into separate parts, however unimaginable, while Allah swt is unchanging, one without any division, ahad, and is not limited. Allah swt is unchanging, eternal, he can not experience change.

    Here's an example i'll give:




    You see, i also affirm whatever Allah swt himself states in the Quran. For example, he states wheresoever i may turn, there is the face of Allah swt, and everything will perish except his face. By looking at both verses, it is clear this is allegorical(and also looking at hadith and tafseer on this issue) and therefore improper for someone to give the verse a literal interpretation that he has a face, but not like ours, and then claim to only affirm what is in the Quran after wrongly interpreting it.


    I've studied this whole issue in depth, and i would be welcome to cordial debate or discussion , maybe on another thread.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Dear brothers,

    It is clear Ibn Fulaan has an influence on IdeasForLife, you both meet up in real life, talk, and he seems like a bigger brother to you. Therefore it is of no surprise to me the views you hold, having seen them change - but i won't go into that. You're a medic , you've probably done a psychology module, so you know what i'm talking about.

    I do still love you both as my muslim brothers in faith. I think you're sincere, albeit to different degrees , we just disagree on issues, and i feel it is not to do with your sincerity or wish for justice, simply being unaware of things or preconceived biases.

    But lets keep it at that.
    Ideas 4 life hasn't ever even seen my face and i think he is older than me.

    i don't really care what you think of me and it would have been better for you not to respond to what was a clear joke of mine because i don't plan on leaving this unanswered.
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    (Original post by Ibn Fulaan)
    Ideas 4 life hasn't ever even seen my face and i think he is older than me.

    i don't really care what you think of me and it would have been better for you not to respond to what was a clear joke of mine because i don't plan on leaving this unanswered.
    Am i not allowed to respond a joke with a joke? (read the tone of my post) I think we should leave it there, there's no need for animosity, we're all under exam stress i have already told you i love you as my muslim brother.

    You and ideas do have a very brotherly relationship, and if he is older that would be strange , i always thought of you as the elder brother !
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Am i not allowed to respond a joke with a joke? (read the tone of my post) I think we should leave it there, there's no need for animosity, i have already told you i love you as my muslim brother.
    It's the same as the tone of every single other one of your posts.

    What do you expect me to do when you say "yo your bias makes you deluded and overrides any want for justice you have but i'm gonna leave it here"?
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    (Original post by Ibn Fulaan)
    x
    That's a misquote. Here is what i actually wrote:

    "I do still love you both as my muslim brothers in faith. I think you're sincere, albeit to different degrees , we just disagree on issues, and i feel it is not to do with your sincerity or wish for justice, simply being unaware of things or preconceived biases. "

    I won't debate on the ISOC , i must again state, nor be provoked into debating. Let us follow the sunnah of Muhammed pbuh and abandon this argument, peace?
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    That's a misquote. Here is what i actually wrote:

    "I do still love you both as my muslim brothers in faith. I think you're sincere, albeit to different degrees , we just disagree on issues, and i feel it is not to do with your sincerity or wish for justice, simply being unaware of things or preconceived biases. "

    I won't debate on the ISOC , i must again state, nor be provoked into debating. Let us follow the sunnah of Muhammed pbuh and abandon this argument, peace?

    It's quite clearly not word for word, i mean when have you even put "yo" in your posts?

    Yes i see. Insult then bail.
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    (Original post by Ibn Fulaan)
    x.
    Yo , I love you dear brother, and i want whats best for the Ummah and humanity as a whole.
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    Asalamu alaykum.

    A must watch documentary (if you have the time) on Islam in prisons. It's nothing short of tear-jerking. Brothers who went to prison for murder (before having embraced Islam) end up becoming great people. They're taught Qur'an / Arabic / Fiqh in the prisons and I ask Allah increase them in ilm and taqwa.

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    For all those who are about to go through exams, i pray for you, may you be granted success to pass, be successful human beings and try to better our world with your knowledge.

    For those who do not do so well, may Allah swt grant you patience and resilience to try again, keep going.
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    Potato
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    For all those who are about to go through exams, i pray for you, may you be granted success to pass, be successful human beings and try to better our world with your knowledge.

    For those who do not do so well, may Allah swt grant you patience and resilience to try again, keep going.
    Ameen
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    (Original post by ThatGurl)
    Haha pray for meee toooo
    May Allah grant you success in your exams
    (Original post by Tawheed)
    For all those who are about to go through exams, i pray for you, may you be granted success to pass, be successful human beings and try to better our world with your knowledge.

    For those who do not do so well, may Allah swt grant you patience and resilience to try again, keep going.
    Ameen
    (Original post by ImNotMe)
    Potato
    Carrot.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Peace and blessings be with you,

    As you are a moderator, i know i am safe in replying.

    Before answering your question, let me give a little bit of a background of myself. Half my family are from the ahlul-sunnah-wal-jamaah, i am living with my ahlul-sunnah family right now - and they are a moderately informed group of people. I'm also looking to get married to someone who was also part of the ahlul-sunnah wal jamaah. I also thoroughly enjoy the works of brother Hamzah Tzortis, and regularly united with my sunni brothers against atheistic ideologies and to prove the existence of God on these boards.

    You see, part of my extensive research into Islam came when i was having doubts at one point - years ago. I have done absolutely pain-staking research on this very issue, because Taweheed is the foundation of Imaan.

    I understand one thing, the ahlul-sunnah wal-jamaah do not believe Allah swt is bound by time or space. However, there are things, and i am saying this having ahlul-sunnah family that i contest and think are problematic, maybe you can discuss this with me on a different thread.

    Before i go on, let me also say i only affirm what Allah swt says in his own book. But i feel this concept is distorted.

    1. The idea Allah swt is 'above' the throne- and taking this literally. I.E Allah swt is literally above his throne. Allah swt is the one who created 'where', he existed before there was a 'where' and 'how'. Therefore it is not tenable to begin to describe him by means of direction. Before he created the 'throne' - where was he? If one believes he is above the throne it means he created it under him, therefore was already contained within an area where he was limited by direction.

    2. The idea Allah swt literally descends to the lowest heaven. Now, many among the ahlul-sunnah-wal jamaah refute those, mostly in the salafi group (correct me if i am wrong) who believe Allah swt literally descends, but we must not ask how. They state Allah swt can not be limited by movement, by time, by literally going from X to Y, he is free of all such need.

    3. The idea Allah swt has a Shin or tangible parts, but we must not affirm or deny what they are, merely accept he has a shin. If you look at the arabic, it is a metaphor to men severe punishment, and many translations reflect it, and such a interpretation is dangerous. Allah swt has no limited form, confine, shape - even if we say it is not like ours, it is disingenuous as we've likened it literally speaking.

    4. The idea on the day of judgment , as in Sahih Al Bukhari , he will change forms and then put his foot into hell. Even if we state his foot is not like our foot and w must only affirm he has a unique foot we can not imagine, we still divide Allah swt into separate parts, however unimaginable, while Allah swt is unchanging, one without any division, ahad, and is not limited. Allah swt is unchanging, eternal, he can not experience change.

    Here's an example i'll give:




    You see, i also affirm whatever Allah swt himself states in the Quran. For example, he states wheresoever i may turn, there is the face of Allah swt, and everything will perish except his face. By looking at both verses, it is clear this is allegorical(and also looking at hadith and tafseer on this issue) and therefore improper for someone to give the verse a literal interpretation that he has a face, but not like ours, and then claim to only affirm what is in the Quran after wrongly interpreting it.


    I've studied this whole issue in depth, and i would be welcome to cordial debate or discussion , maybe on another thread.
    And upon you too.

    Firstly, I will start by suggesting that this probably isn't the best place for such a discussion. The reasons being that a) we are both lay people and b) those observing the discussion are also lay people. With such a discussion on 'aqeedah, we should be cautious. As the narration goes, Hammad ibn Abi Hanifah began to debate matters of 'aqeedah with the various groups such as the mu'tazila. Upon discovering this, his father (Imam Abu Hanifah رحمه الله ) prohibited him from doing so. The people then came together to question his prohibition saying "O Abu Hanifah, you prohibit your son from doing that which you did yourself?!". His reply was "Yes, we would discuss matters of 'aqeedah with those who differed, but we would do so as if they were birds above our heads (an expression of precariousness with regards to being a cause for others to faulter and lowering the head in humility before Allah ta'ala). Whereas you people! You debate with them hoping that they would make a mistake!". No doubt, respect was not ascribed to him for no reason.

    As such, I will very briefly, here, mention a few things with regards to your questions as raised above.

    Now within this discussion there are the matters of tashbih, ta'weel and tafweed. It must be known that we do not go around making takfeer of groups of people, nor trying to make them err.

    Spoiler:
    Show
    Imam al-Nasafi (Allah have mercy on him) states, “He [Allah] is not a body (jism), nor an atom (jawhar), nor is He something formed (musawwar), nor a thing limited (mahdud), nor a thing numbered (ma’dud), nor a thing portioned or divided, nor a thing compounded (mutarakkab), and nor does He come to end in Himself. He is not described by quiddity (al-mahiyya), or by quality (al-kayfiyya), nor is He placed in a space (al-makan); and time (al-zaman) does not affect Him. Nothing resembles Him; that is to say, nothing is like unto Him.” (See: Sa’d al-Din al-Taftazani & Najm al-Din al-Nasafi, Sharh al-Aqa’id al-Nasafiyya, P: 92-97)

    Spoiler:
    Show
    Imam Abu Hanifa (Allah be pleased with him) also states in his Al-Fiqh al-Absat, “If it is asked, ‘Where is Allah?’ It will be said to him that Allah Most High existed when there was no place, before creating the creation. And Allah Most High existed when there was no ‘where’, no creation, nothing; and He is the Creator of everything.” (Al-Fiqh al-Absat, P: 21)


    Spoiler:
    Show
    Mulla Ali al-Qari states in his commentary of Al-Fiqh al-Akbar, “Allah Most High does not reside in a place from the places and neither in a time from the times, because place and time are from the created things whilst Allah Most High has existed eternally when nothing from the created things were in existence with Him.” (Minah al-Rawd al-Azhar fi sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar, P: 117)


    Spoiler:
    Show
    Qadi Abu Ya’la al-Hanbali says, “Indeed, Allah Most High is not to be described with [residing in a] place.” (Daf’ Shubah al-Tashbih, P: 43)

    If you want to read up on this, a very beneficial explanation has been written by Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam (hafizhahullah) here: http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/6810
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    (Original post by ash92:))
    x
    I am pretty pleased with your response dear brother. Am i correct in understanding you do not believe Allah swt is above the throne currently, does not descend, and does not -like Bukhari states- change states, and has no shin/face/hands/ and does not put his foot into hell etc?

    As you have affirmed, Allah swt is without a 'where', and if you correctly hold this belief, it is improper to then say he is 'above' the throne, because you give him direction, a limited position - something limited to his creation.

    I did know there were divisions among the ahlul sunnah about these issues, and i'm glad you're on the more moderate side.

    It was a genuine pleasure to read those words by distinguished scholars of the ahlul-sunnah, if i am correct in everything i have assumed in this post, then may Allah swt bless you for clearing things up. If i am not, i thank you for the respectful way inwhich you have engaged in dialouge.

    I also regard myself as lay, but i have already confirmed with what our ulema teach and what hadiths state, and of the importance of not reflecting on Allah swts essence - rather ensuring we do not label literalistic qualities to him.
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    Brother Ash can we start voting now? lol
 
 
 
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