Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KFC Buffet)
    Lovren is abysmal, Markovic was knackered and is not a defender ffs. Ramires is a box to box midfielder who loves a tackle and a bite. Markovic is a bloody lightweight attacking prodigy.

    No, Ramires didn't win or make us lose it. We could and should have still won it in normal time, regardless of Ramires. We didn't have a cutting edge and the two most braindead lazy ***** in our team combined to switch off at a set piece. Ramires helped but it wasn't over just because he came on.
    Markovic has good work rate and has done well defensively. Yeah he's a little lightweight but you've seen many times wingers going back to fullback midgame to get more attacking impetus.

    Ramires helped us badly, we were getting pressurised a lot in the first leg, he provided energy and turned the game into a fitness test where we trumped. He changed the complexion of Liverpool dominating to Chelsea overrunning your midfield. Henderson at RB was another possibility, so Can works with Lucas. Better than Johnson playing LCB anyway.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    He ain't getting out of this - the Can stamp was clear although the Skrtel one was accidental imo.

    The FA will make sure it's sorted before the city game.
    Out of my fantasy team he goes
    Might be risky and bring in Sturridge
    • Community Assistant
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    Community Assistant
    (Original post by jam277)
    Markovic has good work rate and has done well defensively. Yeah he's a little lightweight but you've seen many times wingers going back to fullback midgame to get more attacking impetus.

    Ramires helped us badly, we were getting pressurised a lot in the first leg, he provided energy and turned the game into a fitness test where we trumped. He changed the complexion of Liverpool dominating to Chelsea overrunning your midfield. Henderson at RB was another possibility, so Can works with Lucas. Better than Johnson playing LCB anyway.
    Need to keep Henderson away from right wing-back at all costs imo. He's so ineffectual there. His and Lucas' partnership in the centre of the midfield have the been the bedrock of our upturn in performances, too.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Henderson only plays wing back when he has to.

    Although if we end up playing 3-4-3 with Moreno-Lucas-Gerrard-Henderson I'll smash my TV.

    Unfortunately, you can see it happening.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KFC Buffet)
    Give me examples of Glen Johnson's attacking contribution then?

    Zerf there's a regular theme of the straw-man with you and you fail to address the point made against you. I never said at any point that 'he's such a great attacking option'. Stop putting words in my mouth. Regularly I've said that he doesn't have the first touch or passing to make the most of the space that he gets. I have never suggested his attacking abilities are presently better than average.

    What makes you so sure that Markovic will immediately be converted into an attacking player and Can immediately into a midfielder? Markovic has offered precious little going forwards, even on this run of form. A great work rate and a composed head but nothing by the way of penetration.

    You underestimate the difference between the back three and a back four, and how much having two men alongside Skrtel helps him. It completely eradicates his failings against people running at him and helps him stick to what he does best - pure defending, clearing of the ball and covering the man attacking the ball, getting himself into the box, where he's most comfortable. There is literally no way in the entire world that bringing Sturridge into our team will not improve our attacking play; attacking play that has already lead us to better than top four form.

    Can't comment on your ideas for the game because we'll never know.

    Gerrard is better at CM in a defensive sense than Lallana. Even a tired Gerrard.
    I've already explained how Johnson makes himself into an option when the attacking player (Sterling for example) is on that flank. He either overlaps or he comes inside to help the winger. Manquillo just hangs back too deep to influence play and that's the difference. There's a reason why Rodgers wants Johnson to sign a new contract and why he still got game time over Flanagan and Manquillo even though some fans slate him.

    So if Manquillo is a crap attacking player (whether fullback or wingback), what use is he in our system? Our attacking players do not play wide or stretch play. It's fundamental to the way Rodgers wants the team to play for the full/wingback to create that width.

    As far as I'm aware Markovic hasn't play that wingback role in the past? He's too relaxed in his passing to be in that key defensive role and his instinct is to attack or be 10 yards higher up the pitch. That and he has the skill, pace and ball control to beat his man which means he'll get played closer to goal in the future. You don't waste that attacking talent further back as a wing/fullback.

    Can has been a midfield player by trade. He only played CB as a youth player. Maybe he will remain as CB but we've seen him make a few mistakes now. I don't think his anticipation is good enough as a defender since sometimes he looks sluggish in reacting. He looks like a natural replacement for Lucas?

    And I think you're over-estimating the difference between a back 3 and a back 4. If anything, when the wingbacks are up the pitch (as they regularly are for us) then the 3 CBs are each covering a bigger area than when we play with 4 at the back and you have the DM deeper/more covering and usually one fullback attacking and the other in a more defensive position. You can't just write off a Sakho/Skrtel partnership (which has Lucas and Henderson in front) without seeing that in play. Skrtel successfully played as a pair of CBs for years now, even last year for our title challenge. Sakho plays as a pair for PSG and France. They can build a relationship when the other players around them are the right suit too.

    Sturridge may need to play back to top match fitness. He might not be firing from day 1. I hope he is but some players need time after such a long lay off.

    Gerrard wasn't playing as a CM until the reshuffle. He and Coutinho were playing behind Sterling. The switch should have been Lallana for Gerrard in that attacking play. Henderson/Lucas would have then been dealing with Oscar/Matic/Ramires, who would've dealt with them better than Gerrard, with Coutinho and Lallana often dropping back onto Matic/Ramires like we usually see them do.

    (Original post by Mackay)
    A right-footed Moreno wouldn't be ideal. Our defence would all be shaky defensively, all be prone to errors, and it would unbalance the side imo.
    Well an error free, right footed Moreno :rolleyes:
    Basically another pacey fullback who can attack and stretch the pitch to compliment having a defensive one like Flanagan in the squad.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zerforax)
    I've already explained how Johnson makes himself into an option when the attacking player (Sterling for example) is on that flank. He either overlaps or he comes inside to help the winger. Manquillo just hangs back too deep to influence play and that's the difference. There's a reason why Rodgers wants Johnson to sign a new contract and why he still got game time over Flanagan and Manquillo even though some fans slate him.

    So if Manquillo is a crap attacking player (whether fullback or wingback), what use is he in our system? Our attacking players do not play wide or stretch play. It's fundamental to the way Rodgers wants the team to play for the full/wingback to create that width.
    Manquillo overlaps too. The reason why Rodgers wants Johnson to sign a new contract is the same as the reason why Rodgers has put faith in Skrtel despite mediocrity from him until recently - experience and personal favouritism.

    Again a lovely strawman you've built, I've never called him a crap attacking player. Flanagan worked perfectly for us last season without being a magnificent attacker and Manquillo can/will offer much more in the coming years. But more importantly, Manquillo is outstanding defensively, his defensive statistics are remarkable.

    As far as I'm aware Markovic hasn't play that wingback role in the past? He's too relaxed in his passing to be in that key defensive role and his instinct is to attack or be 10 yards higher up the pitch. That and he has the skill, pace and ball control to beat his man which means he'll get played closer to goal in the future. You don't waste that attacking talent further back as a wing/fullback.

    Can has been a midfield player by trade. He only played CB as a youth player. Maybe he will remain as CB but we've seen him make a few mistakes now. I don't think his anticipation is good enough as a defender since sometimes he looks sluggish in reacting. He looks like a natural replacement for Lucas?
    He's really not too relaxed in his passing at all, what an absurd notion. His instinct is to attack but he was magnificent in nullifying Hazard eg, so he clearly knows his duties. You'd like him closer to goal but he's yet to show any ability to beat his man so until he starts doing that (which btw he probably has a better chance of currently doing from wingback, after having built up a head of steam) he's fine where he is.

    Can's played CB quite a few times, he was playing there for Germany U21s when he got injured earlier in the year. Nothing to say he can't continue in the role. I don't think his anticipation is poor or his reactions are sluggish at all...

    And I think you're over-estimating the difference between a back 3 and a back 4. If anything, when the wingbacks are up the pitch (as they regularly are for us) then the 3 CBs are each covering a bigger area than when we play with 4 at the back and you have the DM deeper/more covering and usually one fullback attacking and the other in a more defensive position. You can't just write off a Sakho/Skrtel partnership (which has Lucas and Henderson in front) without seeing that in play. Skrtel successfully played as a pair of CBs for years now, even last year for our title challenge. Sakho plays as a pair for PSG and France. They can build a relationship when the other players around them are the right suit too.
    The last time Skrtel played successfully in a two was the second half of 11-12 (which happens to be our poorest season in memory). He was abysmal in a two last season. They don't work as a duo, which is the main issue with those two, it's not the players around them.
    • Community Assistant
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    Community Assistant
    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Well an error free, right footed Moreno :rolleyes:
    Basically another pacey fullback who can attack and stretch the pitch to compliment having a defensive one like Flanagan in the squad.
    My issue is having Moreno, and a right-footed equivalent on the pitch at the same time, is just an accident waiting to happen while we have a back three and goalkeeper prone to errors. It's the old debate of whether we need our wing-backs to be more wing than back, and during matches against the likes of Leicester/Sunderland/Burnley, we undoubtedly do.

    We need options like Flanagan and Manquillo, though, who offer us more solidity than Johnson or Moreno at the back. Players like those - while probably not going to whip in a match-winning cross - will keep things tight in matches against the back four clubs.

    We all saw Flanagan's ability during the matches against Tottenham last year, and the United/City matches at home.
    • Community Assistant
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    Community Assistant
    (Original post by KFC Buffet)
    Henderson only plays wing back when he has to.
    Basically when Rodgers needs somebody right-footed with energy to occupy that position, because no other ****er is capable.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KFC Buffet)
    Henderson only plays wing back when he has to.

    Although if we end up playing 3-4-3 with Moreno-Lucas-Gerrard-Henderson I'll smash my TV.

    Unfortunately, you can see it happening.
    Isn't that what you did last night and to make matters worse with Glen Johnson at LCB?

    Doubt Rodgers will do that, he's been playing Gerrard at no.10 for a reason. He said that he sees Gerrard as a ball playing CB in the future, which he did a few times last season when you go 3atb in possession, Maybe using Gerrard at CB the way United use Michael Carrick there at times is an option? Just think Can is wasted at CB.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KFC Buffet)
    Manquillo overlaps too. The reason why Rodgers wants Johnson to sign a new contract is the same as the reason why Rodgers has put faith in Skrtel despite mediocrity from him until recently - experience and personal favouritism.

    Again a lovely strawman you've built, I've never called him a crap attacking player. Flanagan worked perfectly for us last season without being a magnificent attacker and Manquillo can/will offer much more in the coming years. But more importantly, Manquillo is outstanding defensively, his defensive statistics are remarkable.


    He's really not too relaxed in his passing at all, what an absurd notion. His instinct is to attack but he was magnificent in nullifying Hazard eg, so he clearly knows his duties. You'd like him closer to goal but he's yet to show any ability to beat his man so until he starts doing that (which btw he probably has a better chance of currently doing from wingback, after having built up a head of steam) he's fine where he is.

    Can's played CB quite a few times, he was playing there for Germany U21s when he got injured earlier in the year. Nothing to say he can't continue in the role. I don't think his anticipation is poor or his reactions are sluggish at all...

    The last time Skrtel played successfully in a two was the second half of 11-12 (which happens to be our poorest season in memory). He was abysmal in a two last season. They don't work as a duo, which is the main issue with those two, it's not the players around them.
    Or maybe, Rodgers as a coach who sees them regularly in training, has a better idea than you?

    I'm calling him a crap attacking full/wingback. We didn't need Flanagan to do much offensively since Suarez/Sturridge/Sterling combo was destroying teams.

    Let's just leave it at that. You think Johnson is crap and I think Manquillo is heavily over-rated and out of him and Flanagan, I would only keep one (the latter).

    http://www.squawka.com/comparison-ma...earances#total

    I don't know if that link will work but if you use Squawka then it backs up my claims that Johnson is significantly better in attack (and obviously it show Manquillo is better in defensive). From the general attacking score to total forward passing, chances created, key passes, successful takeones etc

    Markovic once or twice every match will just try to play a simple pass and give it straight to the opposition. He also tries a number of flicks which look great when they come off and an attacking player can do when there's insurance behind him but Markovic needs to be more aware of where he is on the pitch and the risks of gifting the ball away in certain areas.

    Skrtel has probably been our best CB for the last 18 months. It doesn't say much since the bar has been set pretty low but I'm not sure who you are going to say has been playing better?

    (Original post by Mackay)
    My issue is having Moreno, and a right-footed equivalent on the pitch at the same time, is just an accident waiting to happen while we have a back three and goalkeeper prone to errors. It's the old debate of whether we need our wing-backs to be more wing than back, and during matches against the likes of Leicester/Sunderland/Burnley, we undoubtedly do.

    We need options like Flanagan and Manquillo, though, who offer us more solidity than Johnson or Moreno at the back. Players like those - while probably not going to whip in a match-winning cross - will keep things tight in matches against the back four clubs.

    We all saw Flanagan's ability during the matches against Tottenham last year, and the United/City matches at home.
    Personally I think we should be having 1 attacking wingback and one defensive fullback on each flank and you can alternate against the opposition. I'd rather see a Flanagan on the pitch against Man City but I'd much rather have a Moreno on the pitch against a Burnley.

    (Original post by jam277)
    Isn't that what you did last night and to make matters worse with Glen Johnson at LCB?

    Doubt Rodgers will do that, he's been playing Gerrard at no.10 for a reason. He said that he sees Gerrard as a ball playing CB in the future, which he did a few times last season when you go 3atb in possession, Maybe using Gerrard at CB the way United use Michael Carrick there at times is an option? Just think Can is wasted at CB.
    Gerrard is only here for 4 more months. Rodgers will play him off the bench more often and probably more in an attacking role. Gerrard doesn't cover enough ground even as a CM so he'll struggle even more when as a RCB he's being dragged wide.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Or maybe, Rodgers as a coach who sees them regularly in training, has a better idea than you?
    No, quite frankly, I don't think he does have a better idea than me. Seeing them in training is no substitute for actual game day performances.

    Brendan didn't even want Sakho around this season, wanted Lovren to start ahead of him (the absurdity of this really gets to me, Lovren over ****ing SAKHO) and Brendan repeatedly failed to punish Skrtel for his errors. Last season he was providing some key offensive output which perhaps gave him some value to the team but he really should have been dropped after some atrocious performances earlier in the year. So saying 'the manager knows better than me and is an impregnable source' is a bull**** argument because our manager knows absolute **** all about defending and has made more than his fair share of selection mistakes this year.

    Your squawka 'overall attacking scores' means nothing to me, I have no interest in how they weight and manipulate the stats. The raw stats show that Johnson creates one chance every three games, and Manquillo creates one every 8, with neither of them creating an assist. There's no tangible output from those stats from Glen Johnson and it doesn't equate to him being 'significantly better' in attack than Manquillo. The squawka stats really don't show how he breaks down many attacks for us and his lethargy in tracking back, following his man, blocking the cross costs us so often.

    Glen Johnson is awful, and there's very little more I need to say about him.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jam277)
    Isn't that what you did last night and to make matters worse with Glen Johnson at LCB?

    Doubt Rodgers will do that, he's been playing Gerrard at no.10 for a reason. He said that he sees Gerrard as a ball playing CB in the future, which he did a few times last season when you go 3atb in possession, Maybe using Gerrard at CB the way United use Michael Carrick there at times is an option? Just think Can is wasted at CB.
    Yeah, but we did it as victims of the circumstances, not out of real desire.

    Don't think Gerrard has the defensive ability to be in the back three, or the legs to handle wingers like an RCB is required to do (see Can winning the battle vs Hazard over the two legs). He's too flamboyant and in the home stretch of his career here, he's not going to be disciplined at all.

    I'm not sure Can is actually wasted at CB right now. I think he might not be refined enough with the ball under pressure for a midfield role just yet and that playing him at CB will help him with that at least. Plus he needs to improves his reactions and acceleration over 2-5 yards to help with the midfield scraps. I like him where he is tbh and don't see a massive need to change given that Lucas-Henderson is so brilliant.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Mackay)
    Basically when Rodgers needs somebody right-footed with energy to occupy that position, because no other ****er is capable.
    Nah I don't think so. Manquillo is right footed and with energy, Can can play there, obviously Markovic and reluctantly Glen Johnson is an option there too.

    I think playing Henderson at RWB just gives Brendan a way of keeping Henderson on the pitch, and also he's probably a better RWB than most of them anyway. If he was taught/instructed to hug the touchline properly then he'd be magnificent in the role (not that being a good fullback is a rare trait for CMs).
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KFC Buffet)
    Yeah, but we did it as victims of the circumstances, not out of real desire.

    Don't think Gerrard has the defensive ability to be in the back three, or the legs to handle wingers like an RCB is required to do (see Can winning the battle vs Hazard over the two legs). He's too flamboyant and in the home stretch of his career here, he's not going to be disciplined at all.

    I'm not sure Can is actually wasted at CB right now. I think he might not be refined enough with the ball under pressure for a midfield role just yet and that playing him at CB will help him with that at least. Plus he needs to improves his reactions and acceleration over 2-5 yards to help with the midfield scraps. I like him where he is tbh and don't see a massive need to change given that Lucas-Henderson is so brilliant.
    I wasn't going to use Gerrard at RCB that's suicide. I said how Michael Carrick is used at United so at CB. 2 or 3 of Lucas/Can/Henderson should theoretically be enough cover to stop Gerrard from being exposed, last season you had Allen/Coutinho alongside Henderson.

    I still think Lucas needs to be improved upon personally, should have been sent off anyway.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jam277)
    I wasn't going to use Gerrard at RCB that's suicide. I said how Michael Carrick is used at United so at CB. 2 or 3 of Lucas/Can/Henderson should theoretically be enough cover to stop Gerrard from being exposed, last season you had Allen/Coutinho alongside Henderson.

    I still think Lucas needs to be improved upon personally, should have been sent off anyway.
    I don't know how Carrick is used there for United.

    Lucas lacks the physicality which is why he struggled with, quite frankly, a defensively lazy, and ageing, Gerrard during 2013.

    But with Henderson around to cover a lot more ground, he's been exceptional. We've lost two in 18, one a hard fought loss vs Chelsea and the other was the only game that Lucas didn't play. His stats for tackles, interceptions and the other facets of general defensive play are >= Schneiderlin and second only to Matic.

    I was not a huge fan of Lucas post-injury, always ****ged him off and hated how he's pretty limp when someone is running at him but a combination of a more attacking CB line up behind him, and Henderson, have given him the platform to excel defensively. His passing is crisp and excellent going forwards too and he rotates the ball very, very well.

    Oh and Costa shouldn't have been sent off, lol
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KFC Buffet)
    I don't know how Carrick is used there for United.

    Lucas lacks the physicality which is why he struggled with, quite frankly, a defensively lazy, and ageing, Gerrard during 2013.

    But with Henderson around to cover a lot more ground, he's been exceptional. We've lost two in 18, one a hard fought loss vs Chelsea and the other was the only game that Lucas didn't play. His stats for tackles, interceptions and the other facets of general defensive play are >= Schneiderlin and second only to Matic.

    I was not a huge fan of Lucas post-injury, always ****ged him off and hated how he's pretty limp when someone is running at him but a combination of a more attacking CB line up behind him, and Henderson, have given him the platform to excel defensively. His passing is crisp and excellent going forwards too and he rotates the ball very, very well.

    Oh and Costa shouldn't have been sent off, lol
    Yeah the formation is allowing Lucas to look good. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be improved upon. You obviously need to upgrade on Skrtel first and your creative players all lack experience so aren't as good at creating/finishing chances as Suarez or Sturridge.

    After CB and GK(although don't think this is completely important yet, Hart was in shocking form too) where do you think needs to be improved upon? Your aim isn't obviously to find ways to scrape top 4 and it wasn't to scrape top 4 this season, so I think Lucas is a place you need to improve upon as well as a creative forward as good as Sterling minimum.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    Got a ticket for the Besiktas game
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jam277)
    Yeah the formation is allowing Lucas to look good. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be improved upon. You obviously need to upgrade on Skrtel first and your creative players all lack experience so aren't as good at creating/finishing chances as Suarez or Sturridge.

    After CB and GK(although don't think this is completely important yet, Hart was in shocking form too) where do you think needs to be improved upon? Your aim isn't obviously to find ways to scrape top 4 and it wasn't to scrape top 4 this season, so I think Lucas is a place you need to improve upon as well as a creative forward as good as Sterling minimum.
    In order of priorities for our next window;

    - striker, to partner and sub in for Sturridge


    And that's all we can really say right now. Mignolet looks much more at home in the back three. Even if he has a strong end to the season I'm not sure I'd want to gamble on him again, after two up and down years, so yeah a goalkeeper should probably be targeted. Can is the midfield heir so we won't be buying anyone there, unless it's to upgrade on Joe Allen. I read recently that we have the second most expensive defence in the world, so can't see too much money being spent there (not that much needs to be spent anyway if we stay with 3ATB, and even if we move to 4ATB, Skrtel is a Rodgers' favourite so we're not really going to move for an upgrade on him). We have Ilori to return and maybe he makes some kind of impact at RCB (ideal role for him). Talk on these forums about an RWB, but we have JM, JF, GJ, RS, LM, JH, EC all capable of playing there, even if none are a perfect fit, so I do wonder how much money we'd spend on that position.

    A good striker is the main priority and given Sturridge's ability to play in a two, I'd be so happy selling Borini, Lambert and maybe Balotelli, bringing back Origi, and then blowing 50-75% of our summer budget on a striker. We're really not far off, and if we'd had a striker this season we'd be sitting in third with a COC final to look forward to, even with the formation issues and poor defending throughout the first half of the season.
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by jam277)
    Yeah the formation is allowing Lucas to look good. Doesn't mean he shouldn't be improved upon. You obviously need to upgrade on Skrtel first and your creative players all lack experience so aren't as good at creating/finishing chances as Suarez or Sturridge.

    After CB and GK(although don't think this is completely important yet, Hart was in shocking form too) where do you think needs to be improved upon? Your aim isn't obviously to find ways to scrape top 4 and it wasn't to scrape top 4 this season, so I think Lucas is a place you need to improve upon as well as a creative forward as good as Sterling minimum.
    Buy new star striker + Origi joins in the summer and then sell Balotelli + Borini.
    Sell Mignolet and buy a new GK.
    Sell Enrique and buy new backup LB to replace him.
    Keep one of Flanagan/Manquillo/Johnson and buy a new starting RB. Recall Wisdom for cover.
    Sell either Toure or Lovren and buy a new CB.
    Buy a new CM as cover for Henderson. Sell Allen if we need more funds.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    Yh, would rather keep Mignolet and buy a new keeper. Brad Jones is not good enough.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

This forum is supported by:
Updated: February 4, 2015
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Would you rather give up salt or pepper?
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Write a reply...
    Reply
    Hide
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.