Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Blue Meltwater
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#9641
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
What grass roots movement? A few low level fringe organisations under the dominate SNP banner? That grass roots movement?
There's the literally hundreds of local Yes groups around the country, including Women for Yes, Business for Scotland and Third Sector Yes which are sort of under the SNP banner and sort of not, then groups such as Radical Independence, National Collective, Green Yes and Labour for Independence which have no affiliation at all with the SNP. These groups hold regular public meetings and always seem to be canvassing somewhere. Many of them are 'low level' but I don't see that as a bad thing.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
There's the literally hundreds of local Yes groups around the country, including Women for Yes, Business for Scotland and Third Sector Yes which are sort of under the SNP banner and sort of not, then groups such as Radical Independence, National Collective, Green Yes and Labour for Independence which have no affiliation at all with the SNP. These groups hold regular public meetings and always seem to be canvassing somewhere. Many of them are 'low level' but I don't see that as a bad thing.
The SNP have tried to use buzzard wrong campaigns. They all seem to be voting SNP though but trying to give the impression that its a grass roots movement.
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Reformed2010
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(Original post by sauzee_4)
To be honest with you I've not fully formed my opinion on whether we should be in the EU or not, facts are though that we are in just now and if we gained independence I'm sure we could have our own in/out referendum on that too.
The SNP and Scottish Greens on Scotland Newsnight were opposed to an EU in/out referendum. The EU and UK are both unions that require the people in Scotland to pool their sovereignty with other territories. But for some 'strange' reason, having your economy interfered with in London is unacceptable by MP's born in England, but MEP's born in Spain or Poland is completely acceptable.
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Midlander
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
The SNP and Scottish Greens on Scotland Newsnight were opposed to an EU in/out referendum. The EU and UK are both unions that require the people in Scotland to pool their sovereignty with other territories. But for some 'strange' reason, having your economy interfered with in London is unacceptable by MP's born in England, but MEP's born in Spain or Poland is completely acceptable.
Over half of the EU member states charge tuition fees. They have no problem letting these guys in for free but a Welshman? Forget about it.


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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
The SNP and Scottish Greens on Scotland Newsnight were opposed to an EU in/out referendum. The EU and UK are both unions that require the people in Scotland to pool their sovereignty with other territories. But for some 'strange' reason, having your economy interfered with in London is unacceptable by MP's born in England, but MEP's born in Spain or Poland is completely acceptable.
It's all about SNP politicians trying to get long term power. I bet if by some freak action such as a low turnout combined with voter apathy we had a lid dem majority in Westminster, we'd see changes being made there that would allow for lib dems politicians to open up expensively paid non jobs. Salmond et al are eying up the EU gravy trAin.
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Studentus-anonymous
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I'm not sure what the term 'grassroots' means anyway. I expect the pro-independence minded to be pro-active and self-motivated to run a Yes campaign. Yes is the side desperate to win.

(Original post by Wiki article on 'Grassroots')
"A grassroots movement (often referenced in the context of a political movement) is driven by a community's politics. The term implies that the creation of the movement and the group supporting it are natural and spontaneous, highlighting the differences between this and a movement that is orchestrated by traditional power structures. Grassroots movements are often at the local level, as many volunteers in the community give their time to support the local party, which can lead to helping the national party. For instance, a grassroots movement can lead to significant voter registration for a political party, which in turn helps the state and national parties."
Highlights my own.

Naturally a Yes campaigner is going to support a once in a life-times campaign to try and gain independence, thats what nationalists do.
The vast majority who won't be voting yes already have the situation they want, and they have nothing to prove. We all just need to go to the polls on the referendum day, cast our ballot and game set and match.

The Yes campaign also has strong local level support, because well. SNP (and the bulk of Yes support) is at the local levels.

When you hold a minority political opinion, you have no other option but to congregate together locally.


basically 'grassroots' is a bit of a nebulous term without any real meaning. Does my local gardening or cycling club (that participates in activities relevant to their interests which could be constituted as politics, constitute 'grassroots'?
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Blue Meltwater
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
The SNP have tried to use buzzard wrong campaigns. They all seem to be voting SNP though but trying to give the impression that its a grass roots movement.
I'd imagine several do vote SNP, but of the people I know personally involved in these campaigns more are likely to support parties like the Greens or the Scottish Socialist.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
I'd imagine several do vote SNP, but of the people I know personally involved in these campaigns more are likely to support parties like the Greens or the Scottish Socialist.
So a very small proportion of the population?

Not having a go at people for following those groups, but they lack significant levels of support.
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Blue Meltwater
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(Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
The Yes campaign also has strong local level support, because well. SNP (and the bulk of Yes support) is at the local levels.

When you hold a minority political opinion, you have no other option but to congregate together locally.
How is this a bad thing? I would much rather be part of a campaign that operates on a series of local levels than is part of a top-down power structure. This is exactly why Better Together, by its own admission, is being outperformed by the Yes Campaign.


(Original post by Studentus-anonymous)
basically 'grassroots' is a bit of a nebulous term without any real meaning. Does my local gardening or cycling club (that participates in activities relevant to their interests which could be constituted as politics, constitute 'grassroots'?
I'm not sure how gardening or cycling constitutes as politics. If they worked to lobby the government on gardening/cycling issues, or raise attention otherhow as part of a larger campaign, then yes, it would. Again, nothing wrong with that.
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Blue Meltwater
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
So a very small proportion of the population?

Not having a go at people for following those groups, but they lack significant levels of support.
A small proportion of the overall population, yeah, but they seem to make up a disproportionate amount of the actual campaigning population.

It's a fair point that the Yes side does need to campaign much more than the No campaign - it's a seriously uphill struggle - but I suspect it's this attitude which has led to narrowing of the polls over the last year.
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Midlander
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(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
I'd imagine several do vote SNP, but of the people I know personally involved in these campaigns more are likely to support parties like the Greens or the Scottish Socialist.
The Greens have 2 MSPs, the socialists have none. To pretend that they are the ones pulling the strings behind the scenes of the Yes campaign is laughable. The white paper itself is a list of election promises from the SNP. This is Alex Salmond's ego trip, simple as.
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Blue Meltwater
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(Original post by Midlander)
The Greens have 2 MSPs, the socialists have none. To pretend that they are the ones pulling the strings behind the scenes of the Yes campaign is laughable. The white paper itself is a list of election promises from the SNP. This is Alex Salmond's ego trip, simple as.
I'm not suggesting they're the ones orchestrating the high level campaign, but on a local level it is much less of an SNP endeavour.
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Midlander
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(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
I'm not suggesting they're the ones orchestrating the high level campaign, but on a local level it is much less of an SNP endeavour.
So they are happy to promote a white paper their parties had nothing to do with?
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Blue Meltwater)
A small proportion of the overall population, yeah, but they seem to make up a disproportionate amount of the actual campaigning population.

It's a fair point that the Yes side does need to campaign much more than the No campaign - it's a seriously uphill struggle - but I suspect it's this attitude which has led to narrowing of the polls over the last year.
Smaller political parties tend to be more vocal. Small groups of people shouting doesn't equate to popular support.
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L i b
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(Original post by Boab)
No, no, no!

Stop lying to yourself. They come north, make an announcement and run!
What I said was factual. Your response, conveniently couched in folksy metaphor, is wrong.

(Original post by Boab)
The changes you talk about have nothing to do with the changes that doctor is talking about!

Alex Salmond disagrees with you btw. Look at that English audience stamping their feet in applause with him too!
Alex Salmond unfortunately doesn't really understand the NHS. Not only has he increased the use of independent outside contractors (ie, 'privatisation') considerably, his government also supports policies that will lead to considerably more of this.

Community based care - which the SNP and every other major party supports a major shift to - is largely delivered by private contractors: whether a GP, a pharmacist, an optician, the care sector - it's all private.

In point of fact, people who talk about the NHS as some great nationalised structure rarely give what they say a moment's thought. Some are genuinely surprised to hear that virtually every contact they have had with "the NHS" has been with a private contractor. Many of us on this forum will have only used NHS state-provision on a handful of occasions despite regular NHS contact.
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1tartanarmy
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#9656
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#9656
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
What grass roots movement? A few low level fringe organisations under the dominate SNP banner? That grass roots movement?
There is a huge number of independently run yes campaign groups. I am signed up to my home towns one that is run by my childhood primary school teacher. I am also signed up to the yes campaign for the city I live in and for regularly get news from different yes campaigns all oveT the country. They raise their own cash ad do their own thing.

There is thousands of yes campaign volunteers so if that is not a grass roots movement I don't know what is. I have yet to see a better together stall, I have seen loads of yes. Apparently better together can't get the volunteers they need.
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Midlander
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
There is a huge number of independently run yes campaign groups. I am signed up to my home towns one that is run by my childhood primary school teacher. I am also signed up to the yes campaign for the city I live in and for regularly get news from different yes campaigns all oveT the country. They raise their own cash ad do their own thing.

There is thousands of yes campaign volunteers so if that is not a grass roots movement I don't know what is. I have yet to see a better together stall, I have seen loads of yes. Apparently better together can't get the volunteers they need.
I have had BT leaflets put through my door more than once. Nothing from Yes campaigners. Do you live in the central belt?


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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
There is a huge number of independently run yes campaign groups. I am signed up to my home towns one that is run by my childhood primary school teacher. I am also signed up to the yes campaign for the city I live in and for regularly get news from different yes campaigns all oveT the country. They raise their own cash ad do their own thing.

There is thousands of yes campaign volunteers so if that is not a grass roots movement I don't know what is. I have yet to see a better together stall, I have seen loads of yes. Apparently better together can't get the volunteers they need.
There's a huge number of organisations being run by the SNP to give the impression of a ground swell in support. Try reading up in some marketing. They're operating along Kotlers concept of on line social media campaigning.

That's what happens when you keep things on social media. A dozen or so people lacking the ability to socially interact with other people can give the impression of a lot of support by giving multiple likes on Facebook pages.

How many other social media threads do you haunt? I'm hazarding at least half a dozen and wouldn't be surprised if you have multiple on line personas.

Do you know if Swinney has republished the oil production figures yet? It's almost like he doesn't want to.
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by Midlander)
I have had BT leaflets put through my door more than once. Nothing from Yes campaigners. Do you live in the central belt?


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I don't live in the central belt no. I didn't even mention leaflets, I'm talking stalls. Yes scotland have stalls in every city and most big towns every single week now. In fact If you look at pictures posted up some have two or three different yes groups out on the same day.
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1tartanarmy
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
There's a huge number of organisations being run by the SNP to give the impression of a ground swell in support. Try reading up in some marketing. They're operating along Kotlers concept of on line social media campaigning.

That's what happens when you keep things on social media. A dozen or so people lacking the ability to socially interact with other people can give the impression of a lot of support by giving multiple likes on Facebook pages.

How many other social media threads do you haunt? I'm hazarding at least half a dozen and wouldn't be surprised if you have multiple on line personas.

Do you know if Swinney has republished the oil production figures yet? It's almost like he doesn't want to.
First they ignore you, then they laugh, then they fight and then you win...seems like you are going back to the ignore phase again.

Better together will lose this due to complacency at this rate!

In other news: a better together coordinator for lothian has switched to labour for independence because and I quote he "realised over the past 6 months we are not better together".
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