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    (Original post by digitalis)
    Had a bit of a weird incident on firms today. There was a girl doing work experience for a week, finished up last Friday.
    Much to my surprise she rumbles into the Department today! So I asked her what she was doing and 'apparently', she had been told it was OK by the volunteer coordinator as long as one of the doctors gave 'their consent'.

    Now this set off question marks in my head, some school girl wandering around the department unsupervised tagging along onto random doctors in a very busy part of the hospital, no badge, no nothing. I am pretty sure that isn't on and that she wouldn't be covered by Trust insurance/malpractice etc if not on an official work experience project.

    Thoughts?
    That sounds so dodgey. Work experience is an EXPERIENCE- you go there for a week and it's done. volunteering to bring tea and read is a different thing. and taking bloods is just wrong!
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    stupid question: when you examin someone who'd had cataracts surgery in the past, would their pupils be reactive?
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    Dissection of the perineum, and male reproductive tract today. lovely.
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    (Original post by Philosoraptor)
    Yeah that's not a problem dude - we don't get taught till first year clinicals (4th out of 6)
    That just seems ridiculous!
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    (Original post by crazylemon)
    That just seems ridiculous!
    I've never taken bloods before. :sad: Some people here were taught it in their 1st/2nd year MedSoc placements, but most learn on their first year of clinicals, which in my case will be year 4 of 6.
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    (Original post by RollerBall)
    If I was you I'd have a quiet word with your reg/cons and see that they pass it on through the proper channels that this isn't responsible. Tbh, what the **** is a work experience student doing in resus/A&E anyway!? Surely she'd be better off in the quieter wards, chatting to fairly well patients or in stuff like the angioplasty labs with the technicians observing from there? Maybe a bit of surgery, or put her in the clinicals skills lab and jab plastic arms to her hearts content.

    Regardless, her work experience is up. IF she wants to crack on then she needs to get an official extensions not just permission to pester random consultants to allow her to follow them around.
    Meh, this place seems to be putting students in A&E-I think it's alright if they are closely supervised but I know what you mean-I'd prefer somewhere where everyone isn't rushed off their feet and keep letting you get left behind. I think this is some decent advice, I kind of said 'yeahhh don't think you should be here' sort of thing to here yesterday and hope she got the hint, if she pitches up again (at 4PM, mind you..) I'll have a word with the nurse in charge...it's their patch after all.


    (Original post by Philosoraptor)
    My friend on the course's brother wants to do medicine so followed him about for a day or two - always asking permission with patients, saying this is a wannabe medical student is it ok it he listens to our chat... Tbh, that's harmless - don't touch anything, don't get in the way, and ask permission.
    I reckon your mate would have got into deep deep **** if he got caught. The point I want to make is that NHS Trusts are not public institutions like taking your brother to the beach, they are businesses and employers. Consenting patients is fine, but you pitch up to this place of work and you play by their rules. They have agreements with medical schools that stipulate exactly who can attend on placements, names and dates are the minor points, the major points are occupational health, who's paying the malpractice cover and liability insurance. Trusts get money for this. Why do you think they bang home in every single induction that everything you do invasive must be directly supervised by someone qualified-it is so that if they get sued.

    Hospitals are not zoo's, they are relatively dangerous places filled with extremely sick people. If you agree to have a work experience student shadow you, you are agreeing to supervise them. There is no chance in hell that I am taking responsibility as an unqualified *student* for another student.

    There are so many disaster scenarios that can come along with bringing a sibling/mate who isn't a medic around for an unofficial gawk I want to bang this one home in case anyone else is reading this and is having the same idea!

    1.) Imagine if your mate got stopped by his reg or the ward sister and they were like 'wtf is this?'...err it's my brother. Enough said.

    2.) What if a patient starts questioning who they are in xyz scenario and starts getting angry and demanding to know why they weren't properly told who they were after they gave their life hx of haemorrhoids etc; and how you should have been more clear as they are a little deaf and they want to speak to the management now? Can't even say they are on official business, actually they are just a member of the lay public who has listened to all of it.

    3.) On the same vein as above, your excited brother/mate goes off and blabs an entire confidential history (believing it is not important part of the history) in the lift/corridor/street/pub and someone hears it and complains.

    4.) Brother/mate goes off and gets a work related injury/stabs himself/falls and is now **** scared and blubbering that he is going to get HIV.

    All of those could happen on official work experience, yes. The difference being that you are there officially, you are covered, you have access to their occ health and it isn't shady and below the books.
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    (Original post by malaz_197)
    stupid question: when you examin someone who'd had cataracts surgery in the past, would their pupils be reactive?
    Yes they would be.
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    (Original post by digitalis)
    Yes they would be.
    thanks
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    (Original post by digitalis)
    Meh, this place seems to be putting students in A&E-I think it's alright if they are closely supervised but I know what you mean-I'd prefer somewhere where everyone isn't rushed off their feet and keep letting you get left behind. I think this is some decent advice, I kind of said 'yeahhh don't think you should be here' sort of thing to here yesterday and hope she got the hint, if she pitches up again (at 4PM, mind you..) I'll have a word with the nurse in charge...it's their patch after all.

    I was first going to suggest the nurses but based on your past opinion of them I'm not sure how you'd take the advise
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    (Original post by digitalis)
    ...
    The ironic thing about it is - with my 100% official above the board work experience with the Renal team at your Royal London Hospital I was allowed to roam the wards - talk to patients talk to nurses, etc etc

    You'll probably mention occy healthy but I wouldn't have got it any faster than anyone else in A&E
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    (Original post by Vulpes)
    How can the person in charge have allowed her to do that? I have been immunised against Hep B, but even I declined taking blood from a patient when my consultant offered to teach me.

    Is it even legal to be able to draw blood from a patient without being properly signed off?
    Some of us don't get 'signed off' on clinical skills... So long as you feel competent to do it, the qualified doctor supervising you thinks you're competent to do it, and the patient (aware of your student status) consents for you to do it, you're fine...
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    :work::work::work:

    Cramming for this damn exam tomorrow morning. Too much bull crap to read. :sad:
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    (Original post by Becca-Sarah)
    Some of us don't get 'signed off' on clinical skills... So long as you feel competent to do it, the qualified doctor supervising you thinks you're competent to do it, and the patient (aware of your student status) consents for you to do it, you're fine...
    Ooh interesting!
    Although it's all a bit silly as obviously having not taken blood for like a year and a half now I'd obviously go an practice in the clinical skills lab before I did anything like that again! (BSc year, and now specialties year)



    Also how's your BSc going? Haven't chatted in a while!
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    (Original post by malaz_197)
    stupid question: when you examin someone who'd had cataracts surgery in the past, would their pupils be reactive?
    Pupil reactivity is neurological.
    Your not replacing the pupil just the covering.


    Walk in centres are a waste of time. Ive got a chest infection so asked for some antibiotics and an inhaler. So the nurse practitioner has given me 3 antibiotcs and refused to give me an inhaler - because she cant prescribe inhalers. Now i have to go back to the sodding gp for the second time today (i had to see nurse this morning and she offered me an appointment - which me obviously knowing better refused) because i cant breathe and i think my flatmate may strangle me in my sleep if i cough all night again tonight! Oh and i had to leave my consultants supervisors ward round because i was coughing up yellow.


    And another small rant - its panel time!
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    (Original post by _Andrew_)
    Dissection of the perineum, and male reproductive tract today. lovely.
    We have that to look forward to in 2 weeks! Enjoy :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by crazylemon)
    That just seems ridiculous!
    Why? We don't get taught until start of 4th year either - we don't go on clinical placement before that so there's no point being able to take blood if it's just from a plastic arm.
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    (Original post by Philosoraptor)
    Ooh interesting!
    Although it's all a bit silly as obviously having not taken blood for like a year and a half now I'd obviously go an practice in the clinical skills lab before I did anything like that again! (BSc year, and now specialties year)


    Also how's your BSc going? Haven't chatted in a while!
    Aye, apparently uni is organising a refresher clinical skills session for iBSc-ers before we're back on wards. I've never seen the real use of fake arms etc tho as to me they feel so different to a real vein that I'd rather practice on patients.

    BSc is going alright at the moment! Finally got some data, some idea of what I want to do with it, and booked lots of imaging sessions for the next month, so panicking less about getting to the end of term with nothing to write my project report on. How's specialty year? I went back up north at the weekend for medsoc ball and hearing everyone talk about being on placement has made me start looking forward to being a clinical student again
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    (Original post by Helenia)
    Why? We don't get taught until start of 4th year either - we don't go on clinical placement before that so there's no point being able to take blood if it's just from a plastic arm.
    Well, there is a point. Plastic arms are often actually harder than people with good veins e.g. fellow students/young fit patients. And of course there is the "not doing the procedure for first time on a person" aspect... given that forgetting simple parts of procedure which you can easily practice on a plastic arm (taking off tourniquet before taking out needle, sharps discipline) can lead to major ****ups on a real person, there's probably quite a bit of use in doing it.
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    (Original post by thisismycatch22)
    Well, there is a point. Plastic arms are often actually harder than people with good veins e.g. fellow students/young fit patients. And of course there is the "not doing the procedure for first time on a person" aspect... given that forgetting simple parts of procedure which you can easily practice on a plastic arm (taking off tourniquet before taking out needle, sharps discipline) can lead to major ****ups on a real person, there's probably quite a bit of use in doing it.
    I think the point Helenia is making is that there's no point learning to do it in 1st / 2nd year if they don't go on placement until 4th year.
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    (Original post by thisismycatch22)
    Well, there is a point. Plastic arms are often actually harder than people with good veins e.g. fellow students/young fit patients. And of course there is the "not doing the procedure for first time on a person" aspect... given that forgetting simple parts of procedure which you can easily practice on a plastic arm (taking off tourniquet before taking out needle, sharps discipline) can lead to major ****ups on a real person, there's probably quite a bit of use in doing it.

    I disagree - If you learn the skill, and don't use it for a while, you lose it anyway. In many ways the real arms are easier - you can feel the vein properly, you practice shifting the needle slightly. High success rates on the fake arms make people overconfident because many people just follow the stab marks of previous attempts. Besides, all the fake arms have sites in the ACF, whereas in reality, you're looking for hands.
 
 
 
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