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    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    Well you read my post wrong because I was talking about Arsenal after the bit where I agreed with James. I meant the 5 point lead we have over Arsenal and I name dropped Arsenal getting 1 point out of 6 vs United.
    Fair do's.
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    Love how you've become a City fan. Not even entertaining the idea Arsenal are up to the challenge of stopping a Jose lead United. Rather tragic when a fan of a top team is pinning hopes on a rival 2 games into the season.

    Like Pep hasn't said he rates Pogba and put out those feelers previously.

    We aren't walking to the title by any means, but looking to other teams and hoping for flops. Reality is staring you in the face.


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    Also the delusion over how many top managers have apparently bought into the hype over a YouTube highlights player is amusing.

    How many top clubs and managers have been fooled by this deluxe Milner? Conte, Allegri, Pep, Jose, Fergie, Enrique, Zidane, probably Wenger in a couple of years. Also of them fooled by a highlights player. Also everyone's talking about AM's when Pogba is blatantly a CM. Might as well just throw Aguero in there.


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    Anyway it's two games in. Arsenal clearly ain't got enough strength at ST and that's going to bite them. They're relying on in form streaky strikers when the other top clubs have at least one striker that's has a track record of firing for majority of the season and have more than capable backups.
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    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    Yeah pretty much what James says.

    But you have to take results from big teams. Lets be honest Chelsea you're getting 1 point out of 6 and probably the same for United and City(well 3 points out of 6 for you lot)

    So this 5 point lead has kinda got you ****ed.

    Also Eden Hazard is clearly the best midfielder in the league anyway. Pogba is a great jack of all trades though, can do everything and play everywhere in midfield. Personally I think Pogba is basically Milner on some serious MDMA while also sharing a potara earing with Coutinho. Makes a ****ing beast player but I don't think he's the best midfielder in the league.
    Yes, this. Precisely. Hazard two seasons ago was gliding past top players at ease. And providing a finished product consistently. Yet he receives nowhere near the praise Pogba gets.

    I don't think the 5 point lead is insurmountable at all. Its the PL and the big teams will also lose to some unexpected teams down the line.

    I think on talent the likes of Verrati and Renato Sanches are on the level of Pogba. Verrati doesn't have the long range shooting and the physicality, but I don't see him give the ball away like ever. Also, defensively very good despite his size.
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    (Original post by Fizzel)
    Love how you've become a City fan. Not even entertaining the idea Arsenal are up to the challenge of stopping a Jose lead United. Rather tragic when a fan of a top team is pinning hopes on a rival 2 games into the season.

    Like Pep hasn't said he rates Pogba and put out those feelers previously.

    We aren't walking to the title by any means, but looking to other teams and hoping for flops. Reality is staring you in the face.


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    You're not walking to the title at all. You're just delusional. Jose can keep on spending infinite money but so can Pep.

    I don't think we should discount Arsenal beating United if we have a solid defensive lineup.

    Also, United are so sure of Ibrahimovic lol. As if he has not been stifled by good defences many times in big games. He's not Ronaldo. You depend on him for goals.
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    (Original post by Fizzel)
    Also the delusion over how many top managers have apparently bought into the hype over a YouTube highlights player is amusing.

    How many top clubs and managers have been fooled by this deluxe Milner? Conte, Allegri, Pep, Jose, Fergie, Enrique, Zidane, probably Wenger in a couple of years. Also of them fooled by a highlights player. Also everyone's talking about AM's when Pogba is blatantly a CM. Might as well just throw Aguero in there.


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    I was more saying he's a jack of all trades player but there are better players in the league at doing each specific thing he's good at doing, even in CM. Also Hazard has not started as an attacking midfielder this season, his position has been quite deep, even deeper than he was under Mourinho and he's been pretty good so far.

    Passing-Fabregas/Gundogan
    Dribbling-Gundogan
    Stamina-Kante
    Shooting- Coutinho/Sterling

    That's not to say Pogba is poor at those, I'm saying he's capable of doing a lot but he's not really the best at each of his special traits. But I guess that's what you bought him for. He's competent at everything and very good for his best traits.

    Mourinho did say he wants specialist players so I think you'll see Pogba settle into one position.
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    Man United beat Southampton and Bournemouth and they suddenly think they are back, forgetting they have to play Man City in a couple of weeks
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    (Original post by Fizzel)
    Also the delusion over how many top managers have apparently bought into the hype over a YouTube highlights player is amusing.

    How many top clubs and managers have been fooled by this deluxe Milner? Conte, Allegri, Pep, Jose, Fergie, Enrique, Zidane, probably Wenger in a couple of years. Also of them fooled by a highlights player. Also everyone's talking about AM's when Pogba is blatantly a CM. Might as well just throw Aguero in there.


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    Those people you cited are either his countrymen, his club peers or people that have wanted to keep the door open to signing him. I.e. The sample size is not exactly great. It's speculation on a player that has not produced at the highest level... potential. Potential does not win you titles, just ask Wenger.
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    I do guess Arsenal have had a very tough start to the season as well. If they can just destroy the dross and weaker sides they are in the picture(until they get 3 points out of 18 vs United, City and Chelsea)

    (Original post by James.Carnell)
    Yes, this. Precisely. Hazard two seasons ago was gliding past top players at ease. And providing a finished product consistently. Yet he receives nowhere near the praise Pogba gets. I don't think the 5 point lead is insurmountable at all. Its the PL and the big teams will also lose to some unexpected teams down the line. I think on talent the likes of Verrati and Renato Sanches are on the level of Pogba. Verrati doesn't have the long range shooting and the physicality, but I don't see him give the ball away like ever. Also, defensively very good despite his size.
    Sanches is still raw but definitely seems like he can be as good as Pogba from what I've seen(in the european championships) but Verratti is probably on Pogba's level, he's not leaving PSG simply because he's going to cost close to the same amount as Pogba and PSG don't need the money.

    To the 5 point gap you have, see above. You ain't scored vs Chelsea in the league since 2013, Mourinho you've beaten once in like 15+ appearances and well Pep usually just has a stronger team and destroys you in the process. The fact that you have the best chance of getting anything other than a home draw against City probably shows that the 5 point gap is going to be pretty decisive.
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    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    I was more saying he's a jack of all trades player but there are better players in the league at doing each specific thing he's good at doing, even in CM. Also Hazard has not started as an attacking midfielder this season, his position has been quite deep, even deeper than he was under Mourinho and he's been pretty good so far.

    Passing-Fabregas/Gundogan
    Dribbling-Gundogan
    Stamina-Kante
    Shooting- Coutinho

    That's not to say Pogba is poor at those, I'm saying he's capable of doing a lot but he's not really the best at each of his special traits. But I guess that's what you bought him for. He's competent at everything and very good for his best traits.

    Mourinho did say he wants specialist players so I think you'll see Pogba settle into one position.

    When Mourinho was at Chelsea, I said time and time again that I wish we signed Hazard. I am not biased in the matter. He needs to get his **** together this season and I think Conte will help that, but to me its obvious that he is the better player.

    Pogba does not strike me as being exceptional at anything... he is a jack of all, very good at some, master of none.

    Hazard can basically humiliate top defenders... and has been doing so for a few seasons now. In this he is exceptional, he also has the end product. His dip last season is an anomaly because of the entire team's dip.


    KDB too, very good at most areas of the game. Not really exceptional at any but neither is Pogba.
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    Anyone else going to the legends game?

    That strike force..

    Can't wait to see Bergkamp, nothing makes me happier
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    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    I do guess Arsenal have had a very tough start to the season as well. If they can just destroy the dross and weaker sides they are in the picture(until they get 3 points out of 18 vs United, City and Chelsea)
    We just need to make sure we don't lose away to these. Which is do-able, you don't really need to win the away games you just need to make sure you don't lose.

    At home I think we would stand a better chance against all teams except City. City have that 80% defensive possession game (playing away, lol) down to a tee and that is why they will do very well in the league. Also providing Pep does not leave Kolarov and Zabaleta to be going up and down the pitch like early 20 year olds then they should be fine against teams looking to hit them hard with speed like Klopp would.

    Defensively they will be very good simply because they will have so much of the ball and I doubt Pep will allow the fullbacks to be so cavalier. Also, they will not be pressed so effectively 99% of the time since the whole team can now play total football all around the pitch, GK is important for this hence why Claudio Bravo is a crucial buy and John Stones was bought as he is an English CB who can keep the ball and distribute.
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    (Original post by James.Carnell)
    When Mourinho was at Chelsea, I said time and time again that I wish we signed Hazard. I am not biased in the matter. He needs to get his **** together this season and I think Conte will help that, but to me its obvious that he is the better player.

    Pogba does not strike me as being exceptional at anything... he is a jack of all, very good at some, master of none.

    Hazard can basically humiliate top defenders... and has been doing so for a few seasons now. In this he is exceptional, he also has the end product. His dip last season is an anomaly because of the entire team's dip.


    KDB too, very good at most areas of the game. Not really exceptional at any but neither is Pogba.
    In all honesty, Hazard since 2013 has basically been the team anyway. Anybody who actually watches Chelsea under Mourinho would realise we just gave the ball to Hazard if we couldn't get a quick counter opportunity from Fabregas' through balls. We're pretty Hazard dependent but we got the GOAT Moses now and Batman.
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    (Original post by James.Carnell)
    We just need to make sure we don't lose away to these. Which is do-able, you don't really need to win the away games you just need to make sure you don't lose.

    At home I think we would stand a better chance against all teams except City. City have that 80% defensive possession game (playing away, lol) down to a tee and that is why they will do very well in the league. Also providing Pep does not leave Kolarov and Zabaleta to be going up and down the pitch like early 20 year olds then they should be fine against teams looking to hit them hard with speed like Klopp would.

    Defensively they will be very good simply because they will have so much of the ball and I doubt Pep will allow the fullbacks to be so cavalier. Also, they will not be pressed so effectively 99% of the time since the whole team can now play total football all around the pitch, GK is important for this hence why Claudio Bravo is a crucial buy and John Stones was bought as he is an English CB who can keep the ball and distribute.
    Is Wenger going to just tell your team to do a Mourinho away job or will he just carry on being naive?

    United I think are going to struggle vs Peps City. They have the aerial and physical advantage but they're not really the fastest of teams on the break and that's going to kill them. With Chelsea you're a Fabregas pass, Hazard dribble or striker flick on(in the 4-2-4) away from a quick break goal. United are essentially going to defend and try to hurt on set pieces. Leicester similar story with Vardy/Musa/Mahrez to Chelsea.

    Pep if he is pragmatic could win the title with his team but if he's trying Barcelona tactics or just tinkers because of a **** itch for more possession then that's when he's going to get hurt in the league. He gets a ****ing a lot of possession though. He gets more possession playing against Barcelona ffs.
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    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    I do guess Arsenal have had a very tough start to the season as well. If they can just destroy the dross and weaker sides they are in the picture(until they get 3 points out of 18 vs United, City and Chelsea)

    Sanches is still raw but definitely seems like he can be as good as Pogba from what I've seen(in the european championships) but Verratti is probably on Pogba's level, he's not leaving PSG simply because he's going to cost close to the same amount as Pogba and PSG don't need the money.

    To the 5 point gap you have, see above. You ain't scored vs Chelsea in the league since 2013, Mourinho you've beaten once in like 15+ appearances and well Pep usually just has a stronger team and destroys you in the process. The fact that you have the best chance of getting anything other than a home draw against City probably shows that the 5 point gap is going to be pretty decisive.
    Basically our entire season rests on the big teams dropping points and us not losing against said big teams. Not a great way to start a season but you know. I don't really see Pep's team losing against the dross tbh with the way they are set up.

    I don't think a striker like Higuain, Lacazette (Suarez, Neymar, Griezmann or Lewa is the level you need, tier 1... even then I have not seen parts of Lewa's game that holds the flexibility needed for example so I don't actually consider him truly tier 1... suarez, neymar and griez all have that multi faceted nature to their game) changes things against this Pep side. Whereas with Mou you clearly saw his Chelsea side struggle against tier 2 strikers in Europe. The idea that Pep is not as good as Mou defensively is fallacious, it is just a contrasting approach to defensive play.
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    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    Is Wenger going to just tell your team to do a Mourinho away job or will he just carry on being naive?

    United I think are going to struggle vs Peps City. They have the aerial and physical advantage but they're not really the fastest of teams on the break and that's going to kill them. With Chelsea you're a Fabregas pass, Hazard dribble or striker flick on(in the 4-2-4) away from a quick break goal. United are essentially going to defend and try to hurt on set pieces. Leicester similar story with Vardy/Musa/Mahrez to Chelsea.

    Pep if he is pragmatic could win the title with his team but if he's trying Barcelona tactics or just tinkers because of a **** itch for more possession then that's when he's going to get hurt in the league. He gets a ****ing a lot of possession though. He gets more possession playing against Barcelona ffs.
    Surely even Wenger must see the level of opposition he is playing and adapt the gameplan rather than his usual "stamp our authority and play our game" nonsense.. He does not have a bad record against Pep so I think with that he adapts because he has a sense of respect towards the guy.

    City are a scary team because they have a lot of possession of course but they have also invested in penetrative wingers, quick players that are also very technical. They don't depend on Navas or Nasri (lol) anymore for that. Their signings are very tactically sound in nature this time around.

    With them you are basically hoping that Aguero hits an injury. Because they have not really got a top backup for him and his injury record is suspect.


    Vs Chelsea its tough because you have added Batman, i.e. two big physical presence strikers up front. Also, not a coincidence given that against big the top teams its a pretty good tactical option to have them both playing together as an outlet. Will lol at Blind, Shaw, Valencia, Bellerin, Monreal vs those two. I actually believe City have the best chance defensively against you guys as their defenders are all pretty imposing.
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    (Original post by James.Carnell)
    You're not walking to the title at all. You're just delusional. Jose can keep on spending infinite money but so can Pep.

    I don't think we should discount Arsenal beating United if we have a solid defensive lineup.

    Also, United are so sure of Ibrahimovic lol. As if he has not been stifled by good defences many times in big games. He's not Ronaldo. You depend on him for goals.
    Delusional about not walking to the title? Doesn't matter if Arsenal beat United, its 38 games, which you apparently by stating we'll be coming second have already given up hope of competing over. Back to tropes about Ibra's big game performances, as if of the 38 games that win a title its the big ones that get more points. LVG was a big game manager, took us all the way to 5th place.

    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    I was more saying he's a jack of all trades player but there are better players in the league at doing each specific thing he's good at doing, even in CM. Also Hazard has not started as an attacking midfielder this season, his position has been quite deep, even deeper than he was under Mourinho and he's been pretty good so far.

    Passing-Fabregas/Gundogan
    Dribbling-Gundogan
    Stamina-Kante
    Shooting- Coutinho/Sterling

    That's not to say Pogba is poor at those, I'm saying he's capable of doing a lot but he's not really the best at each of his special traits. But I guess that's what you bought him for. He's competent at everything and very good for his best traits.

    Mourinho did say he wants specialist players so I think you'll see Pogba settle into one position.
    So a hybrid of all the those players or perhaps grading on specific elements determines what is the best player in the league. Good case for Wanyama as the leagues best CM on those criteria. As an overall package of the player how many players can be class as outright better? Fabregas is a passenger in high intensity games, Gundogan still isn't back to the level he previously was (you seemed pretty sure he was done not so long ago). Kante is a runner, not a top player in his own right (guy models himself on Lassana Diarra ffs), Sterling and Coutinho good luck playing either of those in a midfielder two. If being able to play wide AM makes you a complete midfielder how many attackers are we entering into this best midfielder position? Is Neymar a midfielder, he's usually playing up against a full back just like Hazard.

    Of proper CM's in the league how many would you be comparing as being as good as Pogba. You could count them on one hand. Also I'll note your tune on Pogba has changed since he became a United player as opposed to a Chelsea target.

    I don't think that is what Jose means when he says he wants specialists, he means he wants player who can be brilliant in the role or position he asks of them. He means he's not going to accept them failing in what he asks becuase they are also good at something else. Pogba having near zero drawbacks is what makes him so appealing for the top sides, he fits near any tactical set up with no downsides. He doesn't need a runner next to him, he doesn't need a creator, he doesn't need defensive cover, he fits without the deficiencies that come with most of the players you have mentioned, that dictate what tactical set up you can play if you include them.

    (Original post by James.Carnell)
    Those people you cited are either his countrymen, his club peers or people that have wanted to keep the door open to signing him. I.e. The sample size is not exactly great. It's speculation on a player that has not produced at the highest level... potential. Potential does not win you titles, just ask Wenger.
    Why exactly have they all been so interested in signing a highlights player? Apparently all these clubs have fallen for a charade you in your wisdom managed to avoid. While other clubs wouldn't pay the fee we have, there was near universal agreement by people who live in the real world that he's a nailed on £60m+ midfielder, and how many of those are there in the PL? Even Wenger has admitted Pogba ticks all his boxes apart from price.
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    (Original post by Fizzel)
    Delusional about not walking to the title? Doesn't matter if Arsenal beat United, its 38 games, which you apparently by stating we'll be coming second have already given up hope of competing over. Back to tropes about Ibra's big game performances, as if of the 38 games that win a title its the big ones that get more points. LVG was a big game manager, took us all the way to 5th place.

    So a hybrid of all the those players or perhaps grading on specific elements determines what is the best player in the league. Good case for Wanyama as the leagues best CM on those criteria. As an overall package of the player how many players can be class as outright better? Fabregas is a passenger in high intensity games, Gundogan still isn't back to the level he previously was (you seemed pretty sure he was done not so long ago). Kante is a runner, not a top player in his own right (guy models himself on Lassana Diarra ffs), Sterling and Coutinho good luck playing either of those in a midfielder two. If being able to play wide AM makes you a complete midfielder how many attackers are we entering into this best midfielder position? Is Neymar a midfielder, he's usually playing up against a full back just like Hazard.

    Of proper CM's in the league how many would you be comparing as being as good as Pogba. You could count them on one hand. Also I'll note your tune on Pogba has changed since he became a United player as opposed to a Chelsea target.

    I don't think that is what Jose means when he says he wants specialists, he means he wants player who can be brilliant in the role or position he asks of them. He means he's not going to accept them failing in what he asks becuase they are also good at something else. Pogba having near zero drawbacks is what makes him so appealing for the top sides, he fits near any tactical set up with no downsides. He doesn't need a runner next to him, he doesn't need a creator, he doesn't need defensive cover, he fits without the deficiencies that come with most of the players you have mentioned, that dictate what tactical set up you can play if you include them.

    Why exactly have they all been so interested in signing a highlights player? Apparently all these clubs have fallen for a charade you in your wisdom managed to avoid. While other clubs wouldn't pay the fee we have, there was near universal agreement by people who live in the real world that he's a nailed on £60m+ midfielder, and how many of those are there in the PL? Even Wenger has admitted Pogba ticks all his boxes apart from price.
    Clubs invest heavily in young players all the time and United were desperate to make a statement signing with a big transfer fee. It doesn't reflect his superiority over recent big transfers. It's just a big fee.

    He has done nothing to suggest he is better than other young prodigies being bought for similarly exorbitant fees recently.
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    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    Pep if he is pragmatic could win the title with his team but if he's trying Barcelona tactics or just tinkers because of a **** itch for more possession then that's when he's going to get hurt in the league. He gets a ****ing a lot of possession though. He gets more possession playing against Barcelona ffs.
    He's clearly modelling this City team on his Bayern side not his Barca side. Still feel he'll suffer problems though, becuase like Barca that Bayern side still had key positions where he benefitted from exceptionally good players, which he simply doesn't have at City. You have a system which the build up, the attack and the defence is based around control, and you lack players in those key positions. Until that is fixed, City are not going to be able to control games like you expect from a Pep side. I am very much looking forward to Klopp vs Pep or even Pep vs Poch in that regard. Unless you can maintain control and stability you don't get to have a side with 5 attacker in it.
 
 
 
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