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    (Original post by Fizzel)
    Delusional about not walking to the title? Doesn't matter if Arsenal beat United, its 38 games, which you apparently by stating we'll be coming second have already given up hope of competing over. Back to tropes about Ibra's big game performances, as if of the 38 games that win a title its the big ones that get more points. LVG was a big game manager, took us all the way to 5th place.

    So a hybrid of all the those players or perhaps grading on specific elements determines what is the best player in the league. Good case for Wanyama as the leagues best CM on those criteria. As an overall package of the player how many players can be class as outright better? Fabregas is a passenger in high intensity games, Gundogan still isn't back to the level he previously was (you seemed pretty sure he was done not so long ago). Kante is a runner, not a top player in his own right (guy models himself on Lassana Diarra ffs), Sterling and Coutinho good luck playing either of those in a midfielder two. If being able to play wide AM makes you a complete midfielder how many attackers are we entering into this best midfielder position? Is Neymar a midfielder, he's usually playing up against a full back just like Hazard.

    Of proper CM's in the league how many would you be comparing as being as good as Pogba. You could count them on one hand. Also I'll note your tune on Pogba has changed since he became a United player as opposed to a Chelsea target.

    I don't think that is what Jose means when he says he wants specialists, he means he wants player who can be brilliant in the role or position he asks of them. He means he's not going to accept them failing in what he asks becuase they are also good at something else. Pogba having near zero drawbacks is what makes him so appealing for the top sides, he fits near any tactical set up with no downsides. He doesn't need a runner next to him, he doesn't need a creator, he doesn't need defensive cover, he fits without the deficiencies that come with most of the players you have mentioned, that dictate what tactical set up you can play if you include them.

    Why exactly have they all been so interested in signing a highlights player? Apparently all these clubs have fallen for a charade you in your wisdom managed to avoid. While other clubs wouldn't pay the fee we have, there was near universal agreement by people who live in the real world that he's a nailed on £60m+ midfielder, and how many of those are there in the PL? Even Wenger has admitted Pogba ticks all his boxes apart from price.


    Yes, but in your original post you said ALL midfielders, which include 10s/winger hybrids like Hazard. Pogba is probably the top CM in the league along with KDB ... but the competition is not exactly high in that area (just CM) come on.
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    (Original post by Fizzel)
    So a hybrid of all the those players or perhaps grading on specific elements determines what is the best player in the league. Good case for Wanyama as the leagues best CM on those criteria. As an overall package of the player how many players can be class as outright better? Fabregas is a passenger in high intensity games, Gundogan still isn't back to the level he previously was (you seemed pretty sure he was done not so long ago). Kante is a runner, not a top player in his own right (guy models himself on Lassana Diarra ffs), Sterling and Coutinho good luck playing either of those in a midfielder two. If being able to play wide AM makes you a complete midfielder how many attackers are we entering into this best midfielder position? Is Neymar a midfielder, he's usually playing up against a full back just like Hazard.
    The Sterling and Coutinho ones were clearly a joke, why would I put two of the worst finishers in the league as the best midfield finisher?

    Also how is Wanyama the leagues best CM on that criteria. He's not the best in tackling/interceptions anyway plus he's clearly a DM and is not good at passing/dribbling or whatever else on a CM that doesn't require defending.

    Currently under Chelsea's new system the CMs are playing higher up than the actual wingers. Kante is more than a runner anyway which you can clearly see from our first two games and at France, if he was a runner he would be playing higher up the pitch and not as a DM firstly and secondly he's a pretty competent passer of the ball, passes it fast unlike Mikel.

    In terms of Gundogan I didn't say he's done I just said he's a crock as he's had two major injuries in his past 3 seasons with one taking him out for a year. That doesn't mean I question his actual ability I just question his ability to stay fit for an entire season and produce at the level he was circa 2013.

    Of proper CM's in the league how many would you be comparing as being as good as Pogba. You could count them on one hand. Also I'll note your tune on Pogba has changed since he became a United player as opposed to a Chelsea target.

    I don't think that is what Jose means when he says he wants specialists, he means he wants player who can be brilliant in the role or position he asks of them. He means he's not going to accept them failing in what he asks becuase they are also good at something else. Pogba having near zero drawbacks is what makes him so appealing for the top sides, he fits near any tactical set up with no downsides. He doesn't need a runner next to him, he doesn't need a creator, he doesn't need defensive cover, he fits without the deficiencies that come with most of the players you have mentioned, that dictate what tactical set up you can play if you include them..
    Bro I'm playing around. The fee is quite a lot but I justified the Juventus signing of Higuain so I'd be hypocritical to criticise the Pogba signing. I would take Pogba any day and get Oscar out the team. I'd have him over Fabregas(just about) due to his defensive ability even though Fabregas is better offensively and dictating games he's a liability in big games while Pogba isn't in comparison.


    (Original post by Fizzel)
    He's clearly modelling this City team on his Bayern side not his Barca side. Still feel he'll suffer problems though, becuase like Barca that Bayern side still had key positions where he benefitted from exceptionally good players, which he simply doesn't have at City. You have a system which the build up, the attack and the defence is based around control, and you lack players in those key positions. Until that is fixed, City are not going to be able to control games like you expect from a Pep side. I am very much looking forward to Klopp vs Pep or even Pep vs Poch in that regard. Unless you can maintain control and stability you don't get to have a side with 5 attacker in it.
    Really fullback and DM is the issue. Pep also had ready made teams, not just in the sense that they were very good players but because a lot of the players were at the right age and maturity. Alves/Xavi/Iniesta/Toure/Messi/Eto'o/Henry who were key to their treble and obviously high quality players. At City there's a lot of room for growth and fullback is going to be a real issue for them this season if they want to play Guardiola's style as they're old. The wingers also are good but more potential(Sterling and Sane mainly) but obviously not as good as Robbery and the Messi/Pedro/Villa days.
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    (Original post by James.Carnell)
    Yes, but in your original post you said ALL midfielders, which include 10s/winger hybrids like Hazard. Pogba is probably the top CM in the league along with KDB ... but the competition is not exactly high in that area (just CM) come on.
    Okay to clarify my definition of league best midfielder means playing against midfielders not fullbacks. Doesn't matter about PL quality, you were talking about him being a flop. Look at a player like Yaya, a Barca cast off who did sweet FA in Europe, still an outright success for City. You dont need to be world class dominating CL finals to be a PL heavyweight. Plenty of players comparable to Pogba in Europe no doubt, but not in the PL, a handful at best. KDB and Silver perhaps under Pep can be considered as CM's in the free 8 role but prior to that they were both AM's wingers. A midfielder without qualification has to be capable of playing CM, the same way a striker has to be able to play 9.
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    Don't know why you'd buy KDB in that CM bracket. He can't defend for ****. Pogba wins.
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    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    The Sterling and Coutinho ones were clearly a joke, why would I put two of the worst finishers in the league as the best midfield finisher?

    Also how is Wanyama the leagues best CM on that criteria. He's not the best in tackling/interceptions anyway plus he's clearly a DM and is not good at passing/dribbling or whatever else on a CM that doesn't require defending.
    Well you said shooting not finishing I just thought Coutinho and long shots tbh. Wanyama has a pretty good case as the best midfield destroyer in the league, if you limit being a CM to just that I think you could say he's the best in the league. His passing isn't actually that poor either, he's not Pirlo of course.

    Currently under Chelsea's new system the CMs are playing higher up than the actual wingers. Kante is more than a runner anyway which you can clearly see from our first two games and at France, if he was a runner he would be playing higher up the pitch and not as a DM firstly and secondly he's a pretty competent passer of the ball, passes it fast unlike Mikel.
    Well I would simply say that is a tactical analysis quite apart from pretty much all of them I have read. spielverlagerung quotes on your west ham game, "From a base formation of something between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3", and "In deeper positions, neither Matic nor Kanté looked to consistently take up positions higher in the midfield and a ‘U’ shape began to form. As a result of this wing-oriented positional structure, Chelsea didn’t often look to occupy spaces higher up in the midfield." All the sentiments I've read and my own observations were similar. Not that I don't rate Kante but if he suffers an injury in which he loses his energy no top side will look at him again. He's not had a meteoric rise becuase his technical talents are clear.


    With regard to the specialist point. Mourinho likes to play a player in a specific position/role and stick to it, you can see that by the ridiculous situation we have in defence and the fact that Mata is playing at RW despite it being clear where he needs to play and who he needs to play instead of. He's not really changing things unless **** is really hitting the fan or he had already planned it(like the eventual dropping of Mata in a couple months). Would he be trying Hazard false 9 and at 10 at the start of a match if there wasn't an issue? Most of 14/15 you didn't have to see the team sheet to guess who's playing and how we're attempting to play the match as we played the same way.
    The point I was making was I don't think you'll see Pogba become anymore of a singular type player than for example Modric or Lampard became singular players under Jose, both still remained complete midfielders. I think by specialist he's talking about a player who fits a role in a system rather than players who need to be accommodated with a system.


    Really fullback and DM is the issue.
    City have potential no doubt but he's going to need to find a way around the fact he's not getting another Neuer. He's not getting another Busquets, or another Lahm/Alves let alone another Messi. Both those teams has at least two players who could be described as players of their generation. That can't be said at present for a single City player, probably even when you look at potential they don't have that in players like Sane or Stones.
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    (Original post by Fizzel)

    Well I would simply say that is a tactical analysis quite apart from pretty much all of them I have read. spielverlagerung quotes on your west ham game, "From a base formation of something between a 4-2-3-1 and a 4-3-3", and "In deeper positions, neither Matic nor Kanté looked to consistently take up positions higher in the midfield and a ‘U’ shape began to form. As a result of this wing-oriented positional structure, Chelsea didn’t often look to occupy spaces higher up in the midfield." All the sentiments I've read and my own observations were similar. Not that I don't rate Kante but if he suffers an injury in which he loses his energy no top side will look at him again. He's not had a meteoric rise becuase his technical talents are clear.
    Kante was playing deep anyway as a DM and was constantly the deepest midfielder, vs West Ham Matic occupied a higher position, or at least was allowed to move higher up. Although in the player position map he was deeper than Oscar who pushed up the most so I guess you're right there. Kante did have a yellow card very early on which was probably what altered this positional change. For the game vs Watford you saw more of what I was talking about. Hazard did play closer to Costa on the map(due to the fact he started at left wing in the 4-1-4-1 and moved RW in a 4-2-4 near the end of the game) but the CMs are clearly higher up than usual and higher up than Pedro as shown below.

    https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/10...atford-Chelsea
    Kante I guess has a lot based on his energy but he's pretty good in his positioning/interceptions. I think that his ability to sense danger and respond to it is clearly heightened by his pace so I agree with you here. it's a very important role and no central midfielder or DM in the league can do it as well as Kante.

    To also add to the point, our defence is atrocious so needs as much protection as it can get. The midfielders would be freed up more(like in pre season) if we had decent CBs who didn't need constant protection.


    City have potential no doubt but he's going to need to find a way around the fact he's not getting another Neuer. He's not getting another Busquets, or another Lahm/Alves let alone another Messi. Both those teams has at least two players who could be described as players of their generation. That can't be said at present for a single City player, probably even when you look at potential they don't have that in players like Sane or Stones.
    City don't have a special player yeah I agree. I'd say De Bruyne at most. Bravo is a pretty good keeper but yeah he needs that player who can do things like Robben/Messi could do. Guardiola is great for player development though, did people think Busquets would get as good as he got, or he could turn Pedro into a goal machine? So I think they'd be fine, they won't be dominant in this league though.
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    young promising CB - holding
    Wierd missing asian - asano
    Solid CM - Xhaka
    giroud competition - perez

    = Solid window, nothing special.. not enough to make me confident of a title challenge, but decent.

    + mustafi

    = Good allround, only complaint would be that we got it done so late in the window that it messed up our first two games..

    + another top player

    = Dreaming, wenger would never dothat, but if he did.. best potential window in a while.


    (Asano still takes the cake for this summer though.. 5 mil on a player who cant even come to the country.)
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    Is it safe to say that BBC Journalist David Ornstein has done more for Arsenal than Theo Walcott?

    https://twitter.com/bbcsport_david/s...83826500952064
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    .


    (Asano still takes the cake for this summer though.. 5 mil on a player who cant even come to the country.)
    Lmfao :rofl:
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    If these signings go through we'd have spent around £90m

    I'd say we have a pretty solid squad, and have competition pretty much everywhere (apart from LB)

    Though, I do wonder if we had acted earlier whether we would have gotten better players?
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    Not sure on Perez tbh, I haven't seen much of him at all. 17 goals for a side that finished quite low is good though..

    If him and Giroud can get 30-35 goals between them then it'd be perfect.

    Alexis will chip in a fair amount, and it does feel like because of Xhaka, Ramsey will have a good season of too.

    Also happy for four players fighting for RW
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    Nah Perez or no Perez we still have an underwhelming squad devoid of winners.

    Perez
    Mustafi
    Holding
    Xhaka
    Asano

    Only 2 out of the 5 are good signings, Xhaka and Mustafi.
    Perez, Holding and Asano is just how low our standards have become. Granted I'm grateful we actually are signing an 'established' striker however.
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    (Original post by AR_95)
    Nah Perez or no Perez we still have an underwhelming squad devoid of winners.

    Perez
    Mustafi
    Holding
    Xhaka
    Asano

    Only 2 out of the 5 are good signings, Xhaka and Mustafi.
    Perez, Holding and Asano is just how low our standards have become. Granted I'm grateful we actually are signing an 'established' striker however.

    If you want big blockbuster signings all around then I suggest you **** off and support Man Utd.
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    (Original post by James.Carnell)
    If you want big blockbuster signings all around then I suggest you **** off and support Man Utd.
    lol because Mustafi and Xhaka are "blockbuster signings".
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    His signings are crap these guys in this forum said Arsenal will win the league last season look what happened it's going to be even worse City, United, Chelsea should finish above us easily that only leaves one spot for Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool.
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    £10 says one of the two new signings fails their medicals
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    (Original post by AR_95)
    Nah Perez or no Perez we still have an underwhelming squad devoid of winners.

    Perez
    Mustafi
    Holding
    Xhaka
    Asano

    Only 2 out of the 5 are good signings, Xhaka and Mustafi.
    Perez, Holding and Asano is just how low our standards have become. Granted I'm grateful we actually are signing an 'established' striker however.
    Think you're being way too harsh on Perez when you've never seen him play. At least reserve judgement on him until he's played a game for us ffs. 17 goals and 10 assists for a bottom half team in his first season as striker. I have some more hope for this season now.

    We may not have a squad of big money players like united and city, but our depth is exceptional now. And also lots of different options tactics wise. We could have a 2nd XI of:

    Ospina
    Jenkinson Mert Holding/Gabby Gibbs
    Coq Wilsh
    Walcott Cazorla Gnabry
    Perez

    That is still a team that will beat most bottom half sides, and that doesn't include Iwobi, Neny, Akpom, Debuchy Chambers.

    Should we have signed earlier? Yes, but then Mustafi was injured anyway so wouldn't have played our first 2 games. Wenger has handled the media and the window appallingly (and has admitted he went into the window thinking it'd be a breeze), but provided these 2 transfers go through, we have addressed most major problems in our squad satisfactorily bar striker.
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    (Original post by AR_95)
    lol because Mustafi and Xhaka are "blockbuster signings".
    Did I say they were? Learn to read.
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    WOB's want Wenger gone even if he wins the league (their words, not mine) Genuinely think they are better off going to Man City like some of our ex players. Plastic fans that only jumped on because of the invincibles bandwagon.
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    (Original post by al_94)
    His signings are crap these guys in this forum said Arsenal will win the league last season look what happened it's going to be even worse City, United, Chelsea should finish above us easily that only leaves one spot for Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool.
    The same Chelsea who have 5 defenders for 4 positions and have limped through their first 2 fixtures? Give me a ****ing break. We have just as much chance of finishing ahead of them than they do over us.
 
 
 
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