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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV watch

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    How many men are Hamas getting back this time and in how many years?
    Depends on the value the Israeli's believe that the abducted soldier holds. In a way, the Israeli's would rather their soldiers die instead of being abducted as there is no way in which they cannot not negotiate with HAMAS.

    This is a game changer if it turns out to be true. I think HAMAS will go for 2000 'freedom fighters' as a ballpark figure.../
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Depends on the value the Israeli's believe that the abducted soldier holds. In a way, the Israeli's would rather their soldiers die instead of being abducted as there is no way in which they cannot not negotiate with HAMAS.

    This is a game changer if it turns out to be true. I think HAMAS will go for 2000 'freedom fighters' as a ballpark figure.../
    Hamas dictate the figure, not Israel. Israel have to get them back, Hamas just have to name the price, after a few years the Israelis cave in. Last time round, it was 1000 men 4 years later. No way is that man worth 1000 in a trade to Israel.
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    (Original post by SMEGGGY)
    I was just watching Live from West Bank they are having a bloody party. Thousands gathered, best thing now would a fighter jet to hover over and drop a bombing eradicating the terrorists.

    As for soldiers, It's a war soldiers die. Kill him or do what you want they are Shaheeds!!!

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    ofcourse they'll have a party that's the ******* that was ordered to kill them for what? for not being jewish and living in Palestine. God knows how many Palestinians he's killed already.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    I think the user was picturing fireworks in her head.

    Grad rockets are still used in combat. In fact 30 Ukrainian soldiers were killed last week by a Grad strike.

    They are a formidable weapon when fired in salvoes as this footage can attest to.

    Doesn't mean that they aren't primitive. It still works in the exact same way as BM-13 Katyusha systems (from 1939): point in the general direction, shoot, hope something hits. Completely unguided, just point, shoot, hope it hits. Primitive.

    They're not really firing them anymore. Their 'home made' one is M75
    You say "home made" as if there is a not home made version. It was designed and build by Hamas, and is another case of point, shoot, hope it hits something. When you're in those conditions you can't really develop guided weapons, especially since if you do you probably won't be able to mass produce them.

    It's the calibre. The name of the rocket is 'khaibar-1'
    Then it's a Khaibar-1, not a m302. Mxxx is a weapon registration and not necessarily related at all to caliber, it may be 302mm, but there is no such thing as m302 (for anything at this time).



    Images of khaibar-1 - Syrian made.

    Which is another primitive weapon, although slightly more sophisticated and classified as a ballistic missile rather than rocker artillery.


    43+ Israelis were killed by the same types of rockets in 2006 war with Hezbollah before Iron Dome. They too fired Grads/Katyusha and some Fajr etc.
    Now, does that include the dead soldiers, or just the civilians? How many thousands were then killed by Israel in retaliation, I have here some figures for deaths on both sides before the 2008 conflict in Gaza:

    Over the whole year (not including the last few days, given the war, only 20 Israelis were killed, despite a lack of Iron Dome, meanwhile, 412 Palestinians were killed, and in only one month did Hamas claim the most kills. And, for the record, all those figures come from the Israeli government before you claim the figures for Palestinian dead are being inflated. Now, of those 412 how many do you think are civilian? 350?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Hamas dictate the figure, not Israel. Israel have to get them back, Hamas just have to name the price, after a few years the Israelis cave in. Last time round, it was 1000 men 4 years later. No way is that man worth 1000 in a trade to Israel.
    Israel will do either one of two things:

    a) Go in hot-headed smashing the place up looking for the soldier. This will bring strong condemnation from the international community and the tide against Israel will turn quicker if it results in more civilian deaths. It will also increase the death of IDF personnel as they will have to penetrate Gaza further. Furthermore, the Israeli's have to be extra careful with their airstrikes as they might accidently kill their own man.

    If I were HAMAS and they had indeed captured the soldier, everytime Israel announces which place they would hit, I would send a message saying the soldier has been held in that area. Either way, Israel would have to abort for fear of hitting their own man.

    b) Israel will sue for peace with HAMAS for what is sure to be humiliating terms.


    Whichever route they go down, this is a dedining moment in the operation and it will be a 'victory' of some sorts for the Palestinians. For goodness sake, they are throwing parties in the WB and Gaza...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Israel will do either one of two things:

    a) Go in hot-headed smashing the place up looking for the soldier. This will bring strong condemnation from the international community and the tide against Israel will turn quicker if it results in more civilian deaths. It will also increase the death of IDF personnel as they will have to penetrate Gaza further. Furthermore, the Israeli's have to be extra careful with their airstrikes as they might accidently kill their own man.

    If I were HAMAS and they had indeed captured the soldier, everytime Israel announces which place they would hit, I would send a message saying the soldier has been held in that area. Either way, Israel would have to abort for fear of hitting their own man.

    b) Israel will sue for peace with HAMAS for what is sure to be humiliating terms.


    Whichever route they go down, this is a dedining moment in the operation and it will be a 'victory' of some sorts for the Palestinians. For goodness sake, they are throwing parties in the WB and Gaza...
    Anything that stops the Israelis achieving their objectives is a victory, it's actually a massive victory if you think about it as it may bring a swifter end to the conflict. Not only does it stop the objectives, but it also reduces civilian deaths. They will drop from the 50-100 we seem to be having now down to just a couple a day [on average] and should allow the displaced to return to what Israel has left of their homes.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Doesn't mean that they aren't primitive. It still works in the exact same way as BM-13 Katyusha systems (from 1939): point in the general direction, shoot, hope something hits. Completely unguided, just point, shoot, hope it hits. Primitive.
    The person I was replying to when you deemed it necessary to interrupt with your flimsy grasp of matters, was alluding to the "primitive" nature of the rockets in relation to the deaths of Israelis.

    i.e, the rockets don't have the capacity to cause great damage because they are "primitive"

    This is what they meant, not that the technology was primitive.

    If a Grad strike hits a group of people, it can kill dozens.



    Then it's a Khaibar-1, not a m302. Mxxx is a weapon registration and not necessarily related at all to caliber, it may be 302mm, but there is no such thing as m302 (for anything at this time).
    You're trying too hard and failing. I named the calibre (302mm) and not the name of the actual rocket. This is fairly standard to give an indication of the size of weapon.

    I've since clarified for the pedant pretending (after a quick google) to know his stuff.



    Now, does that include the dead soldiers, or just the civilians?
    43 were killed by rockets in Israel. Who they were and what they did does not come into the equation as we are talking about how many people were killed by these same rockets when Iron Dome did not exist.

    Try not to cloud the issue.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Anything that stops the Israelis achieving their objectives is a victory, it's actually a massive victory if you think about it as it may bring a swifter end to the conflict. Not only does it stop the objectives, but it also reduces civilian deaths. They will drop from the 50-100 we seem to be having now down to just a couple a day [on average] and should allow the displaced to return to what Israel has left of their homes.
    Until the next time.

    The fact is that unless HAMAS can secure building materials to rebuild the demolished homes, it would be extremely difficult to convince the everyday Palestinian that the countless deaths were 'worth it'.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)

    This will bring strong condemnation from the international community and the tide against Israel will turn quicker if it results in more civilian deaths.
    Yes, Hamas tactics in a nutshell. Have more civilians killed to "turn the tide against Israel"

    It appears Hamas' ideology is shared by some on this forum.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Until the next time.

    The fact is that unless HAMAS can secure building materials to rebuild the demolished homes, it would be extremely difficult to convince the everyday Palestinian that the countless deaths were 'worth it'.
    But that doesn't matter, it was a solid strike at the Infidel Israelis and you made them withdraw, despite their overwhelming superiority. You protected the civilians from further death and destruction, the number of deaths will drop to <10% of the current rates, likley <5% given the figures since the invasion (if you can really call it an invasion).
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    And that's the saddest indictment of them. This is what these people live for. To dance in the streets when they have decapitated a 3 month old baby. To throw parties when they kidnap people.

    That sums up the rotten culture and black hearts of the 'palestinians'

    Awful, awful.
    It's nice to see that, not only is your general logic and argumentative capabilities poor, but so is your ability to read. Or has the meaning of "capturing an Israeli soldier" suddenly changed to "decapitating babies"?
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Yes, Hamas tactics in a nutshell. Have more civilians killed to "turn the tide against Israel"

    It appears Hamas' ideology is shared by some on this forum.
    Just an analysis of the situation. I'm sorry if it's not to your liking.

    And that's the saddest indictment of them. This is what these people live for. To dance in the streets when they have decapitated a 3 month old baby. To throw parties when they kidnap people.

    That sums up the rotten culture and black hearts of the 'palestinians'

    Awful, awful.
    The correct term is captured, not 'kidnapped'.

    Meanwhile, Israeli's cheer whenever Israel bombs from the sky....
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    But that doesn't matter, it was a solid strike at the Infidel Israelis and you made them withdraw, despite their overwhelming superiority. You protected the civilians from further death and destruction, the number of deaths will drop to <10% of the current rates, likley <5% given the figures since the invasion (if you can really call it an invasion).
    Let's not be hasty. The Israeli's still haven't confirmed.

    I've given up asking our resident Israeli propagandist, who apparently has connection to the IDF, whether such reports are true but he has failed to respond.

    But in all circumstances, it has a high probability of being true.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    The person I was replying to when you deemed it necessary to interrupt with your flimsy grasp of matters, was alluding to the "primitive" nature of the rockets in relation to the deaths of Israelis.

    i.e, the rockets don't have the capacity to cause great damage because they are "primitive"

    This is what they meant, not that the technology was primitive.

    If a Grad strike hits a group of people, it can kill dozens.
    And, at the same time, a BM-21 strike aimed at a city could have a grand total of 0 hits, as is the case with such primitive weapons, especially if poorly aimed. If they had precisions weapons, you would know it, because there would actually have been substantial, regular fatalities on the Israeli side before Iron Dome.


    You're trying too hard and failing. I named the calibre (302mm) and not the name of the actual rocket.
    (Original post by Chindits)
    M-302
    You were saying? Also, giving the calibre is uninformative, for example, I could refer to a gun by it's caliber, 7.62mm, which is incredibly uninformative given how widely used it is, or even more uninformatively, give it as M-7.62

    This is fairly standard to give an indication of the size of weapon.
    Yes, but by using the "mm" suffix, not the "M-" prefix. They're completely different

    I've since clarified for the pedant pretending (after a quick google) to know his stuff.
    I can quite safely say I know more than you, and general practice when you come across something you are unfamiliar with is to look it up, savvy? You may not be too capable at it, doesn't mean everybody else is as incompetent.


    43 were killed by rockets in Israel. Who they were and what they did does not come into the equation as we are talking about how many people were killed by these same rockets when Iron Dome did not exist.

    Try not to cloud the issue.
    Except, you expect the soldiers to die in war, if all the fatalities were soldier on the front line then it's a meaningless statistic, in fact, it would show just how ineffective Iron Dome is since it's taken fatalities from 0 in a war, to >0 while not at war. Also, was it not you who was the other day complaining about how you're too blind/deaf to see/hear the western media distinguishing between civilian and military deaths in Gaza?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Let's not be hasty. The Israeli's still haven't confirmed.
    But, as you say, it's probably true. Also, consider that those who are celebrating probably trust what their government is saying on the matter. Suppose your country, whichever it is, is at war and the government announces that the war is over, you would believe them and not wait to hear it confirmed by the other parties before celebrating, right? Ok, they are slightly different circumstances, but it's the best analogy I could think of that might be reflective of the position.



    But in all circumstances, it has a high probability of being true.
    Which just returns us to the stalemate of the last few decades.
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    Pictures do seem to look legit. From @qassam_arabic1:
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Pictures do seem to look legit. From @qassam_arabic1:
    Unrelated to this specific post, I wonder, purely hypothetically, how easily Israel would be able to get away with some sort of biological weapon attack given the poor conditions in Gaza, make it seem legit.
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    Rally in Chicago:

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    Conflicting reports on how many IDF soldiers killed:

    Official toll says 18 but these guys have arrived at 23...
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    A primer from The Onion, America's Finest News Source.
    My favorite points (the most apt ones):
    1) Palestinian neighborhood/future Israeli neighborhood
    3) Vast archive of past ceasefire agreements
    5) Territoriality ambiguous pile of rubble
    7) Location where 65 years of consecutive years of violence recently broke out
    9) Tiny new settlements budding in rich West Bank soil
    13) 2296 Armistice lines
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