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theBOON
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#81
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#81
(Original post by innerhollow)
What? Which thread?



So these other world religions are correct then? *gasp* I think... I think... you just broke a commandment.
No I didn't. :lol:
The fact that some of the events they mention are historical facts helps to prove that they aren't lying.
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Aeolus
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#82
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#82
(Original post by Elipsis)
I don't have to continuously adapt my beliefs to science at all, the two are entirely seperate entities for me; how and why if you will. As I said, you cannot use science to disprove God, just as I can't use it to prove there is a God.
As you cannot use science to disprove Yoda, or intergalactic dragonflys. But you can use it to show how infinitely improbable those things are, the same goes for god.

An asssertion without any kind of evidence can be dismissed in the same way. That is where science comes into it, i could say that there was a ford focus in orbit around Saturn. But science, logic and reason would infer that such a thing would be of the highest order improbable. So yes, of course science is important when it comes to religion. The only peoplle who do not think it, nor want it so, are the people who do not want to think or accept the conclusions it presents.


I too disagree with any manifestation of power in man that comes from religion, but I think that is more to do with mans nature rather than religion,
Religion is mans nature. Religion is so obviously and laughably man made, that i honestly wonder why so many still insist it is the word of God. Which, if anything would do discredit to what would be an immensely powerfull being, if he did exist. It would have him a jealous, cruel, evil, flawed mad scientist. Who only sought to reveal himself directly to the most illiterate and ignorant of his creations, and then vanish.

if religion weren't here it would just be replaced with other things.
I agree. Reason, science, logic and human freedom.

Furthermore, there is also strong evidence in the book
No, there really isn't.

'Who really cares' that having religiousity makes people give more than their atheist counterparts. So if saving lives increases
How exactly does it save lives? I would say religion has done completely the opposite, and even so that is no justification for it. In Gaza, Hamas take part in alot of charity, they provide medical care and shelter etc... Does that make their Jihad from god ok?

religion is a good thing overall regardless of if people use it as a justification for bad things.
What disgusting reasoning.
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Charzhino
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#83
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#83
(Original post by Aeolus)
Religion is mans nature. Religion is so obviously and laughably man made, that i honestly wonder why so many still insist it is the word of God. Which, if anything would do discredit to what would be an immensely powerfull being, if he did exist. It would have him a jealous, cruel, evil, flawed mad scientist. Who only sought to reveal himself directly to the most illiterate and ignorant of his creations, and then vanish.
Here is the difference. You see at as obviously man made, but more 50% of the world see it obviously true. It's a subjective opinion which neither is proved to be right or wrong at the moment. Also your examples of comparing a creator for the universe with a flying ford fiesta or whatever you put orbiting Saturn are laughable themselves
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34253
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#84
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#84
(Original post by Aeolus)
As you cannot use science to disprove Yoda, or intergalactic dragonflys. But you can use it to show how infinitely improbable those things are, the same goes for god.

An asssertion without any kind of evidence can be dismissed in the same way. That is where science comes into it, i could say that there was a ford focus in orbit around Saturn. But science, logic and reason would infer that such a thing would be of the highest order improbable. So yes, of course science is important when it comes to religion. The only peoplle who do not think it, nor want it so, are the people who do not want to think or accept the conclusions it presents.




Religion is mans nature. Religion is so obviously and laughably man made, that i honestly wonder why so many still insist it is the word of God. Which, if anything would do discredit to what would be an immensely powerfull being, if he did exist. It would have him a jealous, cruel, evil, flawed mad scientist. Who only sought to reveal himself directly to the most illiterate and ignorant of his creations, and then vanish.



I agree. Reason, science, logic and human freedom.



No, there really isn't.



How exactly does it save lives? I would say religion has done completely the opposite, and even so that is no justification for it. In Gaza, Hamas take part in alot of charity, they provide medical care and shelter etc... Does that make their Jihad from god ok?



What disgusting reasoning.
Science hasn't proven anything either way though. It has not gone any way in proving the improbablity or probability that we have a creator, and it can't. If such evidence existed do you not think you would have quoted it already? To put it simply enough for you; what evidence would one present to support an hypothesis that God exists? If we wanted to prove there was a ford focus going around saturn then we could have a picture taken with a powerful microscope.

I have directed to you a book that proves my point that the religious give more, however you have not proven that being religious makes you commit more murder or anything like that. Therefore when a religious person says they are giving because their religion asks them to they probably are, and when they are killing on behalf of their religion they probably would have been murderers even if religion wasn't here. Therefore the rational thinker would realise we are better off with religion than without it.
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Aeolus
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#85
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#85
(Original post by Charzhino)
Here is the difference. You see at as obviously man made, but more 50% of the world see it obviously true. It's a subjective opinion which neither is proved to be right or wrong at the moment. Also you examples of comparing a creator for the universe with a flying ford fiesta or whatever you put orbiting Saturn are laughable themselves

Why are they any more laughable than an all powerfull being who created this whole 74 billion+ lightyear universe with us in mind, and made rules on how we should eat, sleep, have sex, cut our childrens foreskins, wash, pray, sell our daughters, trade cattle etc..etc..etc.. While not telling us how to fight disease, or develop technology etc. After our species emerges on planet earth, he waits hundreds of thousands of years before revealing himself to illiterate bronze age peasants before vanishing never to be seen directly again.?
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Charzhino
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#86
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#86
(Original post by Aeolus)
Why are they any more laughable than an all powerfull being who created this whole 74 billion+ lightyear universe with us in mind, and made rules on how we should eat, sleep, have sex, cut our childrens foreskins, wash, pray, sell our daughters, trade cattle etc..etc..etc.. While not telling us how to fight disease, or develop technology etc. After our species emerges on planet earth, he waits hundreds of thousands of years before revealing himself to illiterate bronze age peasants before vanishing never to be seen directly again.?
I'm talking about the God that all religion including deism has, as an origniator of the universe. All individual attributes such as rules on foods and behaviour will obviously vary. But comparing a designer for the universe, with a anaology of flying dragons in space is not equal at all.
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Aeolus
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Elipsis)
Science hasn't proven anything either way though. It has not gone any way in proving the improbablity or probability that we have a creator, and it can't.If such evidence existed do you not think you would have quoted it already? To put it simply enough for you; what evidence would one present to support an hypothesis that God exists?
Occam's Razor dictates that the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions in explaining the results is almost always the right one. That is what makes God so improbable. The evidence is the laws of science and the universe itself. Which also go to make such a being improbable. But the religious of course will come back by saying things like' oh god doesn't adhere to the rules of science and you can't prove he does etc..etc.. :rolleyes:

As for evidence that god exists. Well apparently he spoke directly to moses. He could make a start there. If he is omnipotent, i am sure it isn't past his abilities to reveal himself to us and break the rules fo physics to prove he is what he says he is. He could make a start there. But it is not going to happen, because the probability of such a being existing is so incredibly low, it is frankly ludicrous.


If we wanted to prove there was a ford focus going around saturn then we could have a picture taken with a powerful microscope.

These ford focuses cannot be seen by microscopes. The only way you can see them is to float right next to them and pray to them. Only if you are deemed worthy will they reveal themselves to you. :rolleyes:

I have directed to you a book that proves my point that the religious give more,
No you haven't.

however you have not proven that being religious makes you commit more murder or anything like that. Therefore when a religious person says they are giving because their religion asks them to they probably are, and when they are killing on behalf of their religion they probably would have been murderers even if religion wasn't here.
:teehee: Your arguments are getting worse and worse. If that person would have killed anyway, then why justify it with god? Does god make iteasier to kil someone, does the feeling that he approves of what you do make it easier to walk into a shoppping mall and detonate a c4 waistcoat? What kind of justification for religion is this? :lolwut:

Therefore the rational thinker would realise we are better off with religion than without it.
#

No we are not. Religion has caused more deaths than lack of religion.

I think you may be interested in this. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...y-gregory-paul
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Aeolus
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#88
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#88
(Original post by Charzhino)
I'm talking about the God that all religion including deism has, as an origniator of the universe. All individual attributes such as rules on foods and behaviour will obviously vary. But comparing a designer for the universe, with a anaology of flying dragons in space is not equal at all.

Why not?
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VanillaCat
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#89
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#89
I personally believe in evolution, and that humans are very advanced animals. So they exist for the same reason that bisexual humans exist (which is everybody, to some extent).
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Charzhino
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#90
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#90
(Original post by Aeolus)
Why not?
On one hand you have a whole universe seemingly arising from now where with a vast number of galaxies, stars and other cellestial bodies. We don't know where it has exactly come from but is saying that a divine ''being'' designed/willed it, really that far fetched as an improbability with the same as saying there are flying pixies in Jupiter?

I certianly don't accept that it is improbable as the examples you are giving
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Aeolus
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#91
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#91
(Original post by Charzhino)
On one hand you have a whole universe seemingly arising from now where with a vast number of galaxies, stars and other cellestial bodies. We don't know where it has exactly come from but is saying that a divine ''being'' designed/willed it, really that far fetched as an improbability with the same as saying there are flying pixies in Jupiter?

I certianly don't accept that it is improbable as the examples you are giving

I do. If there can be one being which can break the laws of the uiverse, and the laws of physics. Then why not two or three?
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Charzhino
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#92
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#92
(Original post by Aeolus)
I do. If there can be one being which can break the laws of the uiverse, and the laws of physics. Then why not two or three?
What do you mean by breaking laws of physics? I don't believe God can break the laws of the universe otherwise they wouldn't be laws. And where has these ''laws'' come from? Isn't it possible someone designed them
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34253
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#93
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#93
(Original post by Aeolus)
Occam's Razor dictates that the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions in explaining the results is almost always the right one. That is what makes God so improbable. The evidence is the laws of science and the universe itself. Which also go to make such a being improbable. But the religious of course will come back by saying things like' oh god doesn't adhere to the rules of science and you can't prove he does etc..etc..

As for evidence that god exists. Well apparently he spoke directly to moses. He could make a start there. If he is omnipotent, i am sure it isn't past his abilities to reveal himself to us and break the rules fo physics to prove he is what he says he is. He could make a start there. But it is not going to happen, because the probability of such a being existing is so incredibly low, it is frankly ludicrous.





These ford focuses cannot be seen by microscopes. The only way you can see them is to float right next to them and pray to them. Only if you are deemed worthy will they reveal themselves to you.



No you haven't.



Your arguments are getting worse and worse. If that person would have killed anyway, then why justify it with god? Does god make iteasier to kil someone, does the feeling that he approves of what you do make it easier to walk into a shoppping mall and detonate a c4 waistcoat? What kind of justification for religion is this?

#

No we are not. Religion has caused more deaths than lack of religion.

I think you may be interested in this. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...y-gregory-paul
What is simplier than saying our whole universe was created though? The start of time is so complex science cannot and never will never explain it, because it is either beyond sciences and the human minds capability to do so.

I am mostly speaking in defence of non-Islamic religions here; whose clearly uninspired doctrine has provoked many people who would otherwise not have been murderers into being so. Christians who murder, and specifically murder on behalf of Christianity, would have been crazy anyway - and almost certainly would have murdered anyway. Dictators whom have hidden behind Christianity in order to commit attrocities would have come up with other ways and reasons to do so, just as we have seen in this last century with atheist led Socialism.

However, the book which you have some how discounted without validation, emphatically shows that there is more giving among religious people. Meaning if I earn £20,000 and you do to, then someone who doesn't know us who had to bet on which one of us gave most would be wise to put their money on me. This may not be the case, but common sense, evidence and science, would tell this person to be on me. However, if they were asked to also bet on which one of us is more likely to murder there is no evidence to suggest that either of us is more or less likely to do so; even if there have been many deranged people in the past who have fit our profiles. Therefore religion saves more lives than it takes.

Also, in reply to that article; I would say that higher levels of Christianity (not Islam) correlates with higher levels of personal freedom for that countries inhabitants, which in turn means far higher negative liberty than any atheist nations ever permitted in their short histories.
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Aeolus
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#94
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#94
(Original post by Charzhino)
What do you mean by breaking laws of physics? I don't believe God can break the laws of the universe


Stephen Hawking says of it in his book that in the period of the big bang, the universe was so infinitesimally small and dense that the laws of science themselves were undone and ceased to exist, it became impossible to predict future events in the way we can now.

Accirding to you God did this. Plus you have already mentioned yourself how incredibly vast the universe is. The theory of relativity dictates that nothing can travel faster thant he speed of light. So how is god supposed to get around, or even be omnipotent/omniscient?
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Kash:)
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#95
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Animals are bi becuase most are so horny they'd bang anything.

On youtube there's a mouse humping a computer mouse and my dog use to hump my leg and a pillow, along with both male and female dogs.
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Charzhino
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#96
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#96
(Original post by Aeolus)
Stephen Hawking says of it in his book that in the period of the big bang, the universe was so infinitesimally small and dense that the laws of science themselves were undone and ceased to exist, it became impossible to predict future events in the way we can now.
It still doesn't really say what was before the big bang if anything or where it came from. This still leaves the God scenario open to plausability. He also said that if a God did exist he wouldn't be able to break the laws of the universe, I remeber watching a interview with him on some ISreali TV.

Accirding to you God did this. Plus you have already mentioned yourself how incredibly vast the universe is. The theory of relativity dictates that nothing can travel faster thant he speed of light. So how is god supposed to get around, or even be omnipotent/omniscient?
I believe the soul contains the divine light itself and needs enlightenment to realise it's oness with all. In that sense, every living thing has ''God'' inside them as a transcendental, but needs to be realized. God is described as being ''absorbed in this universe'', so he would be omnipotent. But it is not as simple as that, as an infinite God cannot be fully understood by a finite mind.
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Aeolus
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#97
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#97
(Original post by Elipsis)
What is simplier than saying our whole universe was created though? The start of time is so complex science cannot and never will never explain it, because it is either beyond sciences and the human minds capability to do so.
Actually, science has gone quite a long way in explaining it. The start of time as we knw it, is the big bang. This will probably be simple enough for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_bang

As for simplicity. I think you will find it goes.

Benevolent, omnipotent creator.
Creator
Creation

Declaring that the universe is 'created' by something which you seek to personify just makes things even more complicated. Questions arise such as who created the creator? Why did the creator create etc..etc.. And you cannot escape these questions. You have already said youself that something cannot just come into existence without cause, so you ahve to explain how the creator did. So you can see how this explanation is so much more complicated than the simple creation explanation.

I am mostly speaking in defence of non-Islamic religions here;
Oh like christianity? A religion which tells africans condoms are evil, which in turn helps to spread one of the most deadly and indiscriminate viruses around Africa, or maybe we can discusss the vast cabal of child rapists and abusers which have been exposed to exist withing the highest echelons of the faith, despite it's attempts to protect them. Maybe we can focus on christianities war of genocide against the Muslims in Bosnia and the former Yugoslavia? The horrors of christian misssionary around the world, the inquisition and so on and so forth.

Or maybe Judaism? A religion which along with it's Islamic cousin is threatening WW3 in the west bank and Jerusalem. Where it's adherrents want to knock down someones holy building to build their own holy building because God told them to?

Or amybe their evangelical supporters who only do so, because they think that they are hastening the apocalypse? Hence the prophecy, when all the Jews are dead or enslaved the messiah will return and bring about the reckoning etc..etc..

People actually really believe these things and will stop at nothing to make them happen.

And that is just two thirds of the abrahamic faith. You said above you aren't defending Islam, so i didn't list the horrors which eminate from that faith. but i could if you want me to? I don't see how it would help your argument though?

Christians who murder, and specifically murder on behalf of Christianity, would have been crazy anyway - and almost certainly would have murdered anyway.
I have said it before i will say it again. Assertions made with no evidence can be dismissed in the same way.

I wonder, would all those thousands of priests and bishops have been child rapists if they werent forced to become virgins?

Would the pope have indirectly killed millions if he hadn't been a chrisitan Would he still have spread the word around Africa that condoms are evil? Would he still have condemned millions of children to die needlesly of aids?

Dictators whom have hidden behind Christianity in order to commit attrocities would have come up with other ways and reasons to do so, just as we have seen in this last century with atheist led Socialism.
LOL Socialism was a religion in itself. Centered around an all powerfull leader, whos name could not be taken in vain, and around whom was created a cult, much the same as that which exists around religious leaders or profits. We could look at North Korea now, where the glorioous leader was said to be born of a virgin, and that when he was born, all of the birds began singing in Korean. If that is your idea of a secular and non religious society then i suggest you do some reading.

However, the book which you have some how discounted without validation, emphatically shows that there is more giving among religious people

What book! You keep talking about 'the book' what book is this?


would tell this person to be on me. However, if they were asked to also bet on which one of us is more likely to murder there is no evidence to suggest that either of us is more or less likely to do so;
I live my life by rules and morals such as you should not kill. And that is final. You live your life by rules and morals such as thou shalt not kill...unless god tellls you to.
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Aeolus
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#98
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#98
(Original post by Charzhino)
It still doesn't really say what was before the big bang if anything or where it came from. This still leaves the God scenario open to plausability. He also said that if a God did exist he wouldn't be able to break the laws of the universe, I remeber watching a interview with him on some ISreali TV.
Well if everything must come from something. Then you are forced to explain where the creator came from. And in doing so admit that he is not God because he was created like everything else. If you were to say 'he did not need to becreated' then you ddefeat yourself. Because why then does the universe have to be created? Why couldn't the big bang just have happened? Why are you so willing to accpet that god happened to come into existence one day. But not that the universe did so?


The rest of what you have written contradicts your point above. If God existed at all times in all places. Then he would break the rules of physics, and of the universe.
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Charzhino
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#99
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#99
(Original post by Aeolus)
Well if everything must come from something. Then you are forced to explain where the creator came from. And in doing so admit that he is not God because he was created like everything else. If you were to say 'he did not need to becreated' then you ddefeat yourself. Because why then does the universe have to be created? Why couldn't the big bang just have happened? Why are you so willing to accpet that god happened to come into existence one day. But not that the universe did so?


The rest of what you have written contradicts your point above. If God existed at all times in all places. Then he would break the rules of physics, and of the universe.
I don't believe the universe ever had a single origin point in existence. Since God ''creates'' a universe and destroys it (by whatever means), and this process has no beginning, then it is eternal.

edit: if he existed everywhere, why would that break laws of physics
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Aeolus
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#100
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#100
(Original post by Charzhino)
I don't believe the universe ever had a single origin point in existence. Since God ''creates'' a universe and destroys it (by whatever means), and this process has no beginning, then it is eternal.

But the universe does have a beginning. Plus why would you need a god if the it is eternal? Occams razor negates the need for uneccesary assumptions or extras.
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