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    (Original post by Kralizec)
    I can't believe you just said that.

    Blatant sexism.

    I would love to see you go up to man who has had his life ruined by a false rape accusation and tell him that.
    Sexism? Oh please.

    Like I've said, if the legislation was regarding all crimes, I wouldn't have a problem. What I do have a problem with is the focus on rape, and the distrust of rape victims over victims of any other crime.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    What's the point of granting anonymity if there aren't shed loads of innocent people being accused of rape? To justify this legislation, the number of lying victims would have to be pretty high. Therefore, the idea that rape victims are lying is reinforced.

    Of course, if there ARE a large number of false accusations, this legislation would be justified, but there aren't. It's just prejudice against rape victims.
    But no one is making the assumption that rape victims are lying. The onus of this legislation is to ensure that the dignity of the accussed is perserved until they are proven guilty. Rape is a very serious and a henious crime that leads to many preconcieved judgements of an individuals and essentially a media trail which can have extremely negative ramifications for the accussed both financial and mental for many years to come.

    To ensure fairness and justice, it is only fair that the accussed of such a "sensitive" accusation be made anonymous and the trial should only be the buisness of the two parties concerned, the victim and defendant.
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    (Original post by Kralizec)
    Are you even thinking about what you are saying?

    Child molestation doesn't happen often
    Really not the point. My point is- either you apply anonymity to defendents of all crimes, or to none. There's no reason why rape victims should be trusted any less than other victims, yet they're really not taken as seriously as they should be.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Sexism? Oh please.

    Like I've said, if the legislation was regarding all crimes, I wouldn't have a problem. What I do have a problem with is the focus on rape, and the distrust of rape victims over victims of any other crime.
    + Men who are falsely accused of rape and found innocent will not have their lives ruined and their reputation destroyed

    - Some women will be upset

    You have already admitted that you don't think this will negatively impact conviction rates so that is really the only downside there will be.

    If you think the positives outweigh the negatives here then you clearly just don't give a **** about what happens to the men who are falsely accused
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Really not the point. My point is- either you apply anonymity to defendents of all crimes, or to none. There's no reason why rape victims should be trusted any less than other victims, yet they're really not taken as seriously as they should be.
    Because a rape accusation has far more capacity to destroy someones life than those of most other crimes.
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    (Original post by Diaz89)
    But no one is making the assumption that rape victims are lying. The onus of this legislation is to ensure that the dignity of the accussed is perserved until they are proven guilty. Rape is a very serious and a henious crime that leads to many preconcieved judgements of an individuals and essentially a media trail which can have extremely negative ramifications for the accussed both financial and mental for many years to come.

    To ensure fairness and justice, it is only fair that the accussed of such a "sensitive" accusation be made anonymous and the trial should only be the buisness of the two parties concerned, the victim and defendant.
    No I totally see your point, and if the perception of rape victims was different to what it is, I would probably agree. But I value the way the rape victims and their cases are treated over the anonymity of the defendants, and I think at present taking rape victims more seriously is far more important than the anonymity of the defendants, and unfortunately the latter compromises the former.
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    (Original post by Kralizec)
    Because a rape accusation has far more capacity to destroy someones life than those of most other crimes.
    Than murder? Than paedophilia?
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Sexism? Oh please.

    Like I've said, if the legislation was regarding all crimes, I wouldn't have a problem. What I do have a problem with is the focus on rape, and the distrust of rape victims over victims of any other crime.
    The difference is that there is no surefire evidence that someone has been raped (unless there is physical assault as well), as opposed to murdered, stolen from, GBHed etc. It is one person's word against another that not only that the offence took place, but that the accused is guilty of it (mistaken identity, as an innocent reason for a false accusation).

    Rape victims are anonymous anyway, even if what you say is true about the public thinking rape victims are probably lying, they won't be publicly called out for it, unlike falsely accused men at the moment.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Sexism? Oh please.

    Like I've said, if the legislation was regarding all crimes, I wouldn't have a problem. What I do have a problem with is the focus on rape, and the distrust of rape victims over victims of any other crime.
    The reason it focuses on rape is very simple. It is because victims of false rape accusations have their lives ruined in ways that victims of false accusations of other crimes don't. When someone is accused of rape they will typically lose their jobs, possibly relationships and children, even if they are found not guilty. They may even have to move and assume a new identity. This simply doesn't happen to the falsely accused of other crimes, which would suggest that if anything society tends to automatically believe the alleged victim, rather than the opposite which you seem to be suggesting.

    I think the only crime accusation that would even be comparable to rape in terms of societies prejudice against the accused would be paedophilia, and I would support similar legislation there.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Than murder? Than paedophilia?
    I'm not arguing that this shouldn't be extended to other crimes
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    (Original post by Kralizec)
    You have already admitted that you don't think this will negatively impact conviction rates so that is really the only downside there will be.

    If you think the positives outweigh the negatives here then you clearly just don't give a **** about what happens to the men who are falsely accused
    I never said that it won't affect conviction rates. I haven't even expressed my view on conviction rates, so I'm at a loss as to why everyone's decided to do that for me.

    I care about the anonymity of falsely accused men, but I care about the welfare of rape victims a lot more. You, however, seem to want to deny that rape victims are ever treated badly or not taken seriously. Unless you stop dismissing this problem, I don't think there's much more that we can discuss.
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    (Original post by Kralizec)
    I'm not arguing that this shouldn't be extended to other crimes
    I'm arguing that it can only be applied to rape if it's applied to all other crimes, because of the attitude towards rape victims in our society.
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    (Original post by aeonflux)
    The reason it focuses on rape is very simple. It is because victims of false rape accusations have their lives ruined in ways that victims of false accusations of other crimes don't. When someone is accused of rape they will typically lose their jobs, possibly relationships and children, even if they are found not guilty. They may even have to move and assume a new identity. This simply doesn't happen to the falsely accused of other crimes, which would suggest that if anything society tends to automatically believe the alleged victim, rather than the opposite which you seem to be suggesting.

    I think the only crime accusation that would even be comparable to rape in terms of societies prejudice against the accused would be paedophilia, and I would support similar legislation there.
    This is part of it, a big part of it. But the fact is, it's not being extended to equally stigmatic crimes such as murder and paedophilia, and that says a lot about how seriously we take rape allegations.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    I'm arguing that it can only be applied to rape if it's applied to all other crimes, because of the attitude towards rape victims in our society.
    Yeah about that

    I have never witnessed this supposed attitude or seen any evidence of it.

    Where exactly is this claim coming from?
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    Some feminist on the radio was whinging about this and it really got my goat. Innocent until proven guilty.
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    I don't.




    But women not being taken seriously about their accusations does have something to do with it.




    No, I haven't. Was I supposed to or something?

    I believe allowing the accuse to remain anon might actually improve conviction rates. As I stated in a previous post.I believe one very good reason for low conviction rates,is peoples attitude to the crime of rape. Someone else brought up 'there is no smoke without fire' ,when talking about the falsely accused man's life being ruined but that saying is also applied to the victim too. Remember that post, that I believe was on here sometime ago speaking about a survey of the publics attitude to rape victims?

    By reading that, if ever I was accused of rape, I would really want to have middle aged women on the jury. There was a prevailing view in that survey that the raped women 'asked for it', their sexual history was a factor as well as how they dressed. Then you have the high profile cases in the newspaper where a named falsely accused man, had his life ruined by an idiot woman, who lied.

    If the accused were made anon unless there was a conviction,that might mean juries are more sympathetic to the alleged female victim. Because there will be less of these stories in the media.

    I actually ,think these women who are against this change, should be more angry with the women who make these false accusations,because I do believe even if it is only a few who do it, the way they get blown up by the media, I think has had serious concequences for how we think about rape victims. And Iam not even going to go into the serious concequences for a falsely accused man, and why this change has been a long time in coming.
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    (Original post by Kralizec)
    Yeah about that

    I have never witnessed this supposed attitude or seen any evidence of it.

    Where exactly is this claim coming from?
    Prosecutors have accepted a number of failures in dealing with rape, particularly since the publication in 2007 of the Without Consent report, which was highly critical of some aspects of the way the police and prosecuting authorities deal with rape cases.

    One of the most serious problems has been the initial handling of rape complaints by the police. The 2007 report by Her Majesty's Chief Inspectorate and Her Majesty's Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate, the independent inspectorates for the police and CPS, found that many officers dealing with rape victims had "very little training in responding to rape cases" and a "lack of awareness" of the need to follow the relevant guidance.

    Victims were found to experience delays, "unpleasant environments", inappropriate behaviour by professionals, insensitive questioning during interviews and "judgmental or disbelieving attitudes" when coming forward with complaints of rape.

    As a result, between half and two-thirds of rape cases did not proceed beyond the investigation stage. The majority of victims decide to withdraw their complaints, while high levels of rape complaints are essentially ignored, with reports pointing to scepticism on the part of the police and "the view that the victim lacks credibility".

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ma...onvictions-low
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    (Original post by missygeorgia)
    Prosecutors have accepted a number of failures in dealing with rape, particularly since the publication in 2007 of the Without Consent report, which was highly critical of some aspects of the way the police and prosecuting authorities deal with rape cases.

    One of the most serious problems has been the initial handling of rape complaints by the police. The 2007 report by Her Majesty's Chief Inspectorate and Her Majesty's Crown Prosecution Service Inspectorate, the independent inspectorates for the police and CPS, found that many officers dealing with rape victims had "very little training in responding to rape cases" and a "lack of awareness" of the need to follow the relevant guidance.

    Victims were found to experience delays, "unpleasant environments", inappropriate behaviour by professionals, insensitive questioning during interviews and "judgmental or disbelieving attitudes" when coming forward with complaints of rape.

    As a result, between half and two-thirds of rape cases did not proceed beyond the investigation stage. The majority of victims decide to withdraw their complaints, while high levels of rape complaints are essentially ignored, with reports pointing to scepticism on the part of the police and "the view that the victim lacks credibility".

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/ma...onvictions-low

    Yes all very lamentable, and worthy of discussion,but I fail to see how giving the male accused anon has anything to do with this? Just because women victims still aren't perhaps being treated correctly doesn't men we shouldn't protect the rights of the male accused until conviction.

    And I said just earlier ,one reason for the disbelieving attitudes amongst the general public is that the men are not anon until conviction and the high profile cases put in the Daily Mail etc.
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    I support this legislation. Never understood why it wasn't anon until proven guilty
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    (Original post by Ministerdonut)
    Yes all very lamentable, and worthy of discussion,but I fail to see how giving the male accused anon has anything to do with this? Just because women victims still aren't perhaps being treated correctly doesn't men we shouldn't protect the rights of the male accused until conviction.
    Well then, read my previous posts or this article (http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/20...ity-defendants) because I'm not explaining it again.
 
 
 
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