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      (Original post by badtothebone)
      A socialist society would invest in renewable energies (other than nuclear) on a significantly bigger scale than under capitalism. Therefore there can be a greater amount of production with less environmental damge than sticking with oil, gas and nuclear.

      Capitalism struggles to invest in renewable energy when there is more profit in Oil and Gas etc.
      Then why haven't they?

      You do realise geothermal energy, nuclear, wind, tidal energy come from Capital investment? Anyway, I'd like to see you argue the economics of that.
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      (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
      of course he was antisemitic. Everyone knows the wretched Jews are those filthy Capitalists.
      I am sure there are a few classical liberals who you subscribe to who had "reactionary" ideas . Anyway, as pointed out, Marx himself was a Jew
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        (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
        I am sure there are a few classical liberals who you subscribe to who had "reactionary" ideas . Anyway, as pointed out, Marx himself was a Jew
        Oh, I know he was Jew. Not that that should change anything. I know a few self-loathing Jews - including one on this forum. I wrote a piece about his anti-Semitism. I have to say more out of surprise than anything ... You do realise that Hitler himself commented on Marx's views on the Jewish problem.
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        (Original post by Aj12)
        Having studied Marx at A level and reading some of his work i began to find myself agreeing with him on many points about capitalism. It exploits workers and the planet, the rich mainly benefit and in most cases own the means of production ect.

        But I did not follow his idea of a solution. The only conclusion I came to really was that capitalism is a bad thing but we don't have any other viable alternatives.

        Anyone else feel the same?
        The problem with Marx's manifesto is that it bit of a self fulfilling prophecy really, he believes that human society will "inevitably" go through these stages, yet what happens when they jump the gun altogether? What happens if they go straight to communism? or what happens when they go to communism back to capitalism? If that happens and it has I believe, it pretty much undermines his manifesto.
        He doesn't really take in to account the sole driving force of change. The human.
        Humans can become corrupted with power, so what happens then? Ideally communism should work, but it can't work due to the way we are. Again look at Russia who manipulated his values, China (but then again here it could be argued a dictatorship is needed) and North Korea.
        To me his manifesto is an ideal, a mere dream.

        When it comes to Marx's manifesto i think we have to be careful of believing in him, if you get what i mean? We have to take a step back and ask ourselves "okay where are the problems in this?" "What happens when..." don't know if i answered your question OP or if i gave more question
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        (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
        Oh, I know he was Jew. Not that that should change anything. I know a few self-loathing Jews - including one on this forum. I wrote a piece about his anti-Semitism. I have to say more out of surprise than anything ... You do realise that Hitler himself commented on Marx's views on the Jewish problem.
        Nope...enlighten me?
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          (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
          Nope...enlighten me?
          Lol. That would take an essay, but Jewish hatred wasn't merely due to cultural differences, but how they were the filthy Bourgeoisie in times of economic hardship.

          http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9...ion%22&f=false
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          (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
          Lol. That would take an essay, but Jewish hatred wasn't merely due to cultural differences, but how they were the filthy Bourgeoisie in times of economic hardship.

          http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=9...ion%22&f=false
          I haven't read the book you cite but I don't think Marx felt the problem of capitalism lied solely upon the shoulders of the Jewish race (himself being of Jewish descendant). Certainly, in his day though a large portion of the capitalist class was Jewish as well as in Hitler's day: this was part of the reason, as I know, why Hitler despised the Jews so much. He was poor and homeless for a long time and grew jealous of the countless rich Jewish families he saw pass by him. This jealousy, as we all know, grew very sour but he also failed to recognise (or acknowledge) the proportion of the working class in Germany that was Jewish.
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          I like Communism :love:
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            (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
            I haven't read the book you cite but I don't think Marx felt the problem of capitalism lied solely upon the shoulders of the Jewish race (himself being of Jewish descendant). Certainly, in his day though a large portion of the capitalist class was Jewish as well as in Hitler's day: this was part of the reason, as I know, why Hitler despised the Jews so much. He was poor and homeless for a long time and grew jealous of the countless rich Jewish families he saw pass by him. This jealousy, as we all knew grew very sour but he also failed to recognise the fact that a proportion of the working class in Germany that was Jewish.
            Well Hitler is bit of an oddity since he seems to be on both sides of the traditional political spectrum (albeit more of, what I call, left-fascism). I remember being puzzled by him when I started my research into the Reichconcordat with the Vatican, where his views on the Catholic Church and religion were also all-over-the-place, or so it would seem. This is what I mean when I say an essay is needed. I am not near an academic enough to point to a single cause & comment on Hitler's personal upbringing and what caused what. I think this is mostly speculation. But we can certainly point to things in his life that probably had an effect.

            I also know that Marx had the view that the Spanish were degenerate people. He also wrote about how we should purge the Jewish problem from civilisation. I seem to recall racist views towards blacks too? Moreover, what did Marx & Engels write about "primitive societies" when the evolution of society would take place from Capitalism to socialism?
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            (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
            Well Hitler is bit of an oddity since he seems to be on both sides of the traditional political spectrum (albeit more of, what I call, left-fascism). I remember being puzzled by him when I started my research into the Reichconcordat with the Vatican, where his views on the Catholic Church and religion were also all-over-the-place, or so it would seem. This is what I mean when I say an essay is needed. I am not near an academic enough to point to a single cause & comment on Hitler's personal upbringing and what caused what. I think this is mostly speculation. But we can certainly point to things in his life that probably had an effect.

            I also know that Marx had the view that the Spanish were degenerate people. He also wrote about how we should purge the Jewish problem from civilisation. I seem to recall racist views towards blacks too? Moreover, what did Marx & Engels write about "primitive societies" when the evolution of society would take place from Capitalism to socialism?
            R.e. the racist views on blacks and primitive societies, read the post I provided a link to on the former page. Again, the man was living in the 19th Century so such views were fairly common ground - can either myself or yourself claim we would not have adopted such views in a society filled with racism and prejudice?

            As for Hitler's economic political views, they were fairly populist as in whatever was good with the masses was generally good with him. I seem to recall he had fairly strong private property beliefs though his economy was certainly "mixed". He definitely disagreed with Marxian socialism.
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              (Original post by AnarchistNutter)
              R.e. the racist views on blacks and primitive societies, read the post I provided a link to on the former page. Again, the man was living in the 19th Century so such views were fairly common ground - can either myself or yourself claim we would not have adopted such views in a society filled with racism and prejudice?
              That is not true at all. Plenty of people were not antisemitic. Nietzsche, for instance, was an admirer of the Jewish race!

              Human beings define themselves and other by the external values (skin colour, ethnicity, religion, gender), and not by their internal values (one's values & virtues). This isn't unique to our generation, this century, or the previous 1000 years. It is something that every human being is faced with. I think having a vision of the world in an absolutist "oppressor vs. oppressed" causes more damage.

              As for Hitler's economic political views, they were fairly populist as in whatever was good with the masses was generally good with him. I seem to recall he had fairly strong private property beliefs though his economy was certainly "mixed". He definitely disagreed with Marxian socialism.
              This depends on whether you take Mein Kampf into account. But this is an interesting discussion that deserves its own thread tbh, and some detailed reading on my part .
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              (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
              I think having a vision of the world in an absolutist "oppressor vs. oppressed" causes more damage.
              Or is the division of the world into an "oppressing" class and an "oppressed" class the sole root of reactionary ideas?
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              I have just founded this society. Would any of you be interested in joining?
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              (Original post by Lord Hysteria)
              Then why haven't they?

              You do realise geothermal energy, nuclear, wind, tidal energy come from Capital investment? Anyway, I'd like to see you argue the economics of that.
              Because we don't live in a socialist society?........

              Theres nothing complicated about the economics - the governemnt invests rather than a capitalist. However a capitalist invests to make a profit, the socialist government invests to meet the needs of the people. Investing creates jobs - which means less people on the dole (reduced welfare spending) and more people working (paying income tax, spening money which generates more tax and economic growth)
             
             
             
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