Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MagnificentFuhrer)
    I've been researching Spanish culture for Spanish class and I came across a bullfight on YouTube. If you skip to 5:05 in the vid, you'll see the ending for the bull isn't swift but rather torture! I used to think of bullfighting as just a cultural difference, but surley this sort of macabre torture can't be allowed in the 21st century, not in Europe anyhow.

    Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLDWj...eature=related
    No.
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by py0alb)
    Have you actually read the book? I defy you to read the book and come away without at least some sentiment of sympathy for the (once) great sport of bullfighting.

    Anyway, of course you should here the point of view of the alleged rapist. Thats why we have courts of law. :rolleyes:
    I never said alleged rapist. You misunderstood. If someone rapes someone else and it is known that they did rape them, looking at the situation from their perspective would be pointless as they would have no justifiable reason to do it.

    Whats the justifiable reason for bullfighting?
    Tradition? Well thats a weak argument
    Maybe because the bull fighter needs money? In the past this may have been the case but now bullfighters are well paid and there are several other jobs they could do
    Self defence? Yeah right, from an animal that never attacks on the wild unless provoked, an animal that has been kept locked up all night in the dark to make it angry.
    Entertainment? Again no defence. This is the 21st century and entertainment like this should be left in the past. You want to watch sport? watch football or f1 (both very popular in spain, perhaps more than bullfighting). You want to see some violence? Watch boxing.
    I cant see any justifiable reason for bullfighting. I havent read the book but i will if i come across it.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Lewroll)
    I never said alleged rapist. You misunderstood. If someone rapes someone else and it is known that they did rape them, looking at the situation from their perspective would be pointless as they would have no justifiable reason to do it.

    Whats the justifiable reason for bullfighting?
    Tradition? Well thats a weak argument
    Maybe because the bull fighter needs money? In the past this may have been the case but now bullfighters are well paid and there are several other jobs they could do
    Self defence? Yeah right, from an animal that never attacks on the wild unless provoked, an animal that has been kept locked up all night in the dark to make it angry.
    Entertainment? Again no defence. This is the 21st century and entertainment like this should be left in the past. You want to watch sport? watch football or f1 (both very popular in spain, perhaps more than bullfighting). You want to see some violence? Watch boxing.
    I cant see any justifiable reason for bullfighting. I havent read the book but i will if i come across it.

    I'm not attempting to defend bullfighting here at all. I'm merely defending the right of the accused to defend themselves, no matter how unjustifiable their alleged crime seems to be to certain observers. You have every right to hold the opinions you do on bullfighting, but at least give them the chance to put together an intelligent and articulate case for their defence before you make up your mind for good. You can only be said to have an "informed" opinion once you have actually listened to both sides of the argument.
    Offline

    10
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by py0alb)
    I'm not attempting to defend bullfighting here at all. I'm merely defending the right of the accused to defend themselves, no matter how unjustifiable their alleged crime seems to be to certain observers. You have every right to hold the opinions you do on bullfighting, but at least give them the chance to put together an intelligent and articulate case for their defence before you make up your mind for good. You can only be said to have an "informed" opinion once you have actually listened to both sides of the argument.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bonged.)
    This. What's more sickening is that people are devoting their whole lives to saving bulls, donkeys, dogs, etc. People are starving to death and dying of curable disease all over the world, yet they are ignored in favour of bulls? That's sick.
    Wrong way round, animals are the ones being ignored.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by py0alb)
    I don't think that is the general attitude in the UK, and for good reason: there is a clear difference between fully conscious, self-aware humans and animals. There is no coherent moral argument why animals should be treated differently from plants: both feel pain, neither are conscious (according to the most up to date scientific research). So where's the difference? Because animals are cuddly?
    What do you mean neither are conscious.
    Ofc animals are bloody concious.

    Definition:
    knowing and perceiving; having awareness of surroundings and sensations and thoughts.
    consciousness - awareness: having knowledge of

    I would love to see the source of this apparant "most up to date scientific research" that seems to be applying that animals are as aware as plants, seriously?..

    Anyone who lives around animals / has close bonds with their pets can see their more than a mindless beings and most def concious of themselves,others, memories & feelings.


    I hate how humans have this false sense of superiority, ignorance plays a huge part.
    Like how I see it, some humans think lowly of other cultures/languages because they do not understand them, the same goes for animals, once you understand their language which in their case usually body language you unlock a deeper understanding/connection.

    Yes we are more capable and intelligent than alot of creatures, But I do not see how this gives us the right to abuse them.
    We share this world, we do not own it.

    As for bullfighting, yes it is sick but no isn't the sickest spectacle on earth like others have said theres much worse going on in this world.
    Just another unnecessary cruelty among thousands of others.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Don't try and ban some country's entertainment or cultural tradition unless they actually have an impact on your life. I bet that the people who complained about bullfighting went to a fast food joint afterwards and happily munched on a mega burger, oblivious to the fact that the cattle used to produce the meat was treated in abysmal conditions. But since they got a tasty treat out of it, they didn't care as much. It's always about double standards. Often animal rights activists are not really interested in the fate of animals, but are just embittered individuals who hate their own kind. People complain about bulls being killed when members of our own species live in crushing misery. Help them before you help the bull or the panda bear and stop whining about the rights of animals when sentient beings don't even have those.

    For the record I don't feel superior to animals, in fact self consciousness is a bit of a drag, but since we're lucky enough to emerge on top of the food chain, we should take advantage of it.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Victor-PP)
    Bullfighting has been banned in a few regions of Spain. Get your facts right.
    Glad to hear that.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by nofuture)
    What do you mean neither are conscious.
    Ofc animals are bloody concious.

    Definition:
    knowing and perceiving; having awareness of surroundings and sensations and thoughts.
    consciousness - awareness: having knowledge of

    I would love to see the source of this apparant "most up to date scientific research" that seems to be applying that animals are as aware as plants, seriously?..

    Anyone who lives around animals / has close bonds with their pets can see their more than a mindless beings and most def concious of themselves,others, memories & feelings.


    I hate how humans have this false sense of superiority, ignorance plays a huge part.
    Like how I see it, some humans think lowly of other cultures/languages because they do not understand them, the same goes for animals, once you understand their language which in their case usually body language you unlock a deeper understanding/connection.

    Yes we are more capable and intelligent than alot of creatures, But I do not see how this gives us the right to abuse them.
    We share this world, we do not own it.

    As for bullfighting, yes it is sick but no isn't the sickest spectacle on earth like others have said theres much worse going on in this world.
    Just another unnecessary cruelty among thousands of others.

    It is easy to assume that because a rat and a person act the same in similar circumstances, they have the same kind of subjective experience. But can we really say this for sure? The only way to tell would be to compare what happens in the brain, and as it turns out, the area of the brain associated with conscious thought doesn't even exist in animals. A rat is no more "conscious" than my **** ing laptop.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by py0alb)
    It is easy to assume that because a rat and a person act the same in similar circumstances, they have the same kind of subjective experience. But can we really say this for sure? The only way to tell would be to compare what happens in the brain, and as it turns out, the area of the brain associated with conscious thought doesn't even exist in animals. A rat is no more "conscious" than my **** ing laptop.
    What is your definition of conscious thought? I'd be interested to see your source for this assertion that animals have no 'area of the brain' for conscious thought. What about intelligent animals such as dolphins and primates?

    Rats respond to the stimulus of pain in the same way as humans The mechanism is obvious, pain triggers distress and agitated behaviour in both humans and animals. If this is so, why think that rats' experience of pain is any different to that of humans?
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Ebbson)
    What is your definition of conscious thought? I'd be interested to see your source for this assertion that animals have no 'area of the brain' for conscious thought. What about intelligent animals such as dolphins and primates?

    Rats respond to the stimulus of pain in the same way as humans The mechanism is obvious, pain triggers distress and agitated behaviour in both humans and animals. If this is so, why think that rats' experience of pain is any different to that of humans?

    Rats don't think at all. They don't sit there thinking "mmm this is a tasty piece of cheese, or ow that hurts, why does this damn human keep poking me?" Neither do dolphins for that matter. This is hardly a controversial statement, its been known by science for years. They simply react via instinct. Clearly, even the most generous definition of "conscious" would involve the ability to possess a thought. Animals simply don't possess a sufficiently advanced brain for anythingeven remotely approaching conscious thought to be possible.

    Now it may be the case that the most extreme examples of intelligence in animals, those with more developed front cortexes such as chimps and dolphins, have something that borders upon this ability. But to suggest that animals in general are any more conscious than plants is simply incorrect. Plants do feel pain remember, by any functional definition of pain.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MagnificentFuhrer)
    I've been researching Spanish culture for Spanish class and I came across a bullfight on YouTube. If you skip to 5:05 in the vid, you'll see the ending for the bull isn't swift but rather torture! I used to think of bullfighting as just a cultural difference, but surley this sort of macabre torture can't be allowed in the 21st century, not in Europe anyhow.
    Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLDWj...eature=related
    I'm not for bullfighting (although I don't see why it should be banned, simply modified, after all there's no actual reason why it can't be done without hurting the bull).

    However, this whole high and mighty approach you Brits seem to take when it comes to anything even remotely Iberian is getting a bit excessive. I mean your last sentence is a fair verbal equivalent of what they did to the bull.

    Especially when you consider who enslaved and sold off most of the population of Africa, and then invented the concentration camp.

    I don't, however, want to pick fights over who did/is doing different naughty things. You're entitled to your opinion. But do you have nothing better to do than have a bit of a "the Spaniards are all barbarians" rally? It's a domestic issue at the end of the day (which is a polite way of saying it's really none of your business).
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bellrosk)
    Cultural relativism aside, I feel there must be something inherently wrong with you to find pleasure out of the pain and suffering of another living being.
    It's nice that you shoved aside cultural relativism. Audiences don't go to see the bull suffer. If they wanted to do that they would give it LSD and release it in a stadium full of glass shards.

    The point is to see the art with which the bulfighter evades the bull. The killing and maiming is all just a throwback to archaic times, which I agree should be done away with.

    But again, jumping on the barbarian bandwagon a little too easily.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Glowy Amoeba)
    Don't try and ban some country's entertainment or cultural tradition unless they actually have an impact on your life. I bet that the people who complained about bullfighting went to a fast food joint afterwards and happily munched on a mega burger, oblivious to the fact that the cattle used to produce the meat was treated in abysmal conditions. But since they got a tasty treat out of it, they didn't care as much. It's always about double standards. Often animal rights activists are not really interested in the fate of animals, but are just embittered individuals who hate their own kind. People complain about bulls being killed when members of our own species live in crushing misery. Help them before you help the bull or the panda bear and stop whining about the rights of animals when sentient beings don't even have those.

    For the record I don't feel superior to animals, in fact self consciousness is a bit of a drag, but since we're lucky enough to emerge on top of the food chain, we should take advantage of it.
    You got repped for that, especially the first bit of the last paragraph.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by xnatalie01x)
    It's disgusting. Enough rubbish about how animals aren't equal to humans, what a stupid thing to say. Would you like it if your pets were treated this way? The only good thing is if a bull decides to get its on back. I really hope they abolish bullfighting.
    So you're dead against bullfighting? About which I'd bet a large amount of money you know very little about.

    Except when a fellow human being, who by the way has done nothing to you and is trying to earn a living, suffers grievous bodily harm or even death?

    Are you even aware of the savagery of what you've written?
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Not by a long shot, but it's pretty damn sick, I hate when things are justified and ignored because of "culture". I'd have to say gangs going around raping and mutilating women in Africa is a sicker going on. Not the best example I guess as it isn't a public spectacle(well to be honest it probably is sometimes) so how about a girl getting stripped naked, flogged and then stoned as can occur in some Asian countries. I mean how can you can do that to another human being...throw that stone at someone's bleeding battered body, screaming for the pain to stop, tears streaming down their face...sick isn't enough to try and describe something like that, those sort of things just make our species seem disgusting. Cultures which allow such a thing are a cancer that needs to be cut out and those who are directly involved in such acts..do onto to others as you would have them do onto you applies I suppose.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Eldedu)
    .

    Especially when you consider who invented slavery.
    and you're applying to Balliol? :eek:
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by py0alb)
    and you're applying to Balliol? :eek:
    Are you going to attack my daydreams, or offer some form of counterargument? Because that, my...well not good...my sir, was below the belt.

    Edit: It has been edited from it's former condition of vaguely recalled general knowledge to something more in tune with your exacting demand for fact.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Eldedu)
    It's nice that you shoved aside cultural relativism. Audiences don't go to see the bull suffer. If they wanted to do that they would give it LSD and release it in a stadium full of glass shards.

    The point is to see the art with which the bulfighter evades the bull. The killing and maiming is all just a throwback to archaic times, which I agree should be done away with.

    But again, jumping on the barbarian bandwagon a little too easily.
    'The art in which the bullfighter evades the bull' is it really an art though? Now I could understand such descriptions if we're talking about boxing or a similar form of combat where humans of equal intelligence are pitted against each other. That requires speed and quick thinking (as well as brute strength). The same, I'm afraid can't be said about bull fighting as the fact remains that the beast has a brain a quarter of the size of the human brain and clearly is in a bewildered state, charging in a frenzied manner at a sheet the fighter antagonistically waves before it. This is not a match of equals, the humans clearly have the upper hand and thus there is no way this sort of spectacle can be called an 'art'.

    I understand the repercussions of ignoring cultural relativism and do not wish to radiate Western ignorance. But this is Spain we are talking about, a country most would argue is a modern, developed and forward thinking nation. The cruelty of bullfighting is not appropriate to such a nation. This is barely British colonialism speaking seeing as Spain is an influential member of the EU in which relatively standardized values are instilled.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Eldedu)
    Are you even aware of the savagery of what you've written?
    But at the same time the Animal is treated rather savagely itself. I mean a spear to impale your shoulder muscles, then another, then another, the intent firstly to weaken you, then latter to focus your rage, is hardly right surely? Then the pain of the lance itself throughout the performance. Obviously on occasion the bull is spared from death, but it's not the norm. I've seen one type of bullfighting, I assume not Spanish, where the bull had an object on fire on it's head, I wasn't sure if it was an attachment to the banderillas but the fact was the bull was clearly distressed and seemed to be being burnt.

    Unlike other animals we can reflect on our actions, we can..or should..empathise with things. They have the same type of nervous system we do, they clearly react to pain with anger, fear, distress. Maybe they don't have our entire spectrum of emotion or the ability to comprehend exactly what is happening(they're going to die) but surely as a higher intelligence we have a burden of responsibility?
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: December 4, 2010
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    What newspaper do you read/prefer?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.