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    (Original post by Sephiroth)
    The police can't deny the right to protest.

    You are exaggerating figures when you throw around the £50k figure and state it's three times what people pay now. Most people do three year degrees anyway. Your £50k figure can be compared to the current £30-35k that some people pay, not the £20k I paid. So going back to the 1/3 you mentioned earlier, that would be what, £100k debt? And you say you're not exaggerating figures.

    Do you think people are going to pay £27k for a degree in knitting from the University of Turd or do you think the university will set the fee to a price people think that degree is worth? The alternative is the university closes down and gets no money at all.

    Forget interest, it's there regardless of the fee system.
    They can deny it if they think the protest will be violent.

    I am not exagerating. I was wrong when I said current debts would be a 1/3 of future ones. But the actual figures I am saying (£40 - £50k) are realistic. Why ignore interest? It is set at a higher rate in the new system. Even if you take the £40,000 which is realistic (three years at £9,000, plus maintance loans plus interest), thats still double what you paid.

    And yes, I do think people will pay the higher fees even for crap unis / degrees. We heard the free market / different prices BS argument from Labour and it didn't happen so why would it now?
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    I don't mind about the protests themselves, because the people in my sixth form who went to protest are smart and know their stuff (if only from taking Politics AS), and even if I don't agree with them, they can argue the matter articulately and fairly. But a lot of people are just there for the excitement, they don't know much about it and haven't researched it, and all they know is that if they don't make some noise they'll have to pay more money for something which they expected just to fall into their laps (because- come on, be truthful- how many modern 17 year olds are going to uni because they really, truly are passionate about their subject and would pay anything, do anything to pursue it further?). They're mildly disgruntled.

    I can see how a cause like this would be appealing to today's sixth formers- a/ fun opportunity for grievance against the government for their 'class prejudice' (sound clever in front of your friends), b/ we've been the 'rebels without a cause' generation for way too long, and c/ what? they'll have to pay for their own education? shocking! when they thought it'd be so easy...

    It made me laugh to see an article about the protesters earlier this week. I'll see if I can find it again later. It went on about "this bunch of hardworking, concientious students protesting'- and they'd spelt the words in their banner wrong, in the photo Really made a good impression.
    We haven't got a right to EMA! We haven't got a right to discounted schooling! We get such an easy ride already, it's unbelievable how we think people have a duty to take care of us and make sure we get our degrees sorted out (which is ultimately all for ourselves). There comes a time when we have to accept we're on our own, and the way to deal with that is not to pull a temper tantrum and demand things stay the same, perfect for us.

    One of the few things I could criticise the government for, however, is encouraging everyone (including those whose families didn't go to university, and who are just going to get CDD in three mickey mouse A levels and a 2.2 mickey mouse degree) to go to uni and then raising tuition fees.

    Yes, my parents will help me out with uni, and yes, I can see why you'd just dismiss my opinion because of that, but if I could see sense in it then I would be out there waving a sign on your behalf. As it is, I can't support it.
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    I don't agree with the rise of fees, but what annoys me is that loads of people who were conservative supporters a week ago are simply joining in the protests beacuse they think its fun and is going to be of historical significance.
    Also, as someone said last week, when lorry drivers strike, we get no fuel. When bus drivers strike, we get not buses. In these circumstances, the public is always in the losing end, but when students strike and skip lessons, there the ones missing there education and its not like that without students going to school/ university, the country is going to come to a standstill. So all they can really do is make a lot of noise.
    I'm not saying its futile, Im just saying its easier for the Clegg/ Cameron coalition to ignore. Unless they burn the house of parliament down, of course.
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    (Original post by Laura-alice26)
    The whole thing has been handled wrong. there are reason for the changes.

    Personally i want to go to university because i have since primary school, i love learning and i am willing to pay more to get better educated. i think that some people go to university for the wrong reasons.
    That is great, but I think there is a much bigger picture. I see it like this:

    1. In the UK, the more you earn, the more you pay in tax. Will you, as a graduate, use more public services, than say someone who dropped out of school after year 11, and who does not earn much, and therefore pay as much tax as you will? Although not all higher tax rate payers are graduates, I suspect that the majority of them are, so dress it up however you will, there is already a form of graduate tax in operation in the UK.

    2. With what is now proposed, you borrow a whole amount of money from the government. You pay it back with interest. Then you pay the quasi graduate tax in '1' above. Is that fair? Will graduates be given tax breaks for the amounts of their loans and interest?

    3. Banks may not give mortgages to debt ridden new graduates.

    There are many other reasons why the educational cuts are unfair, but the above deals with the reasons why they are unfair to the majority of students. Yes spending has to be cut back, but why unnecessarily? If all the proposed cuts were absolutely crucial, the govt would not have any spare cash. Where then did the £7bn for the Irish bail out come from? If £7bn is being given (whatever) to Ireland, I bet there's more where that came from.

    The protests show that democracy is alive. If you don't like what the government is doing, the thing to do is to speak up - though not violently. Only then should the protests stop - as the participators would have achieved their aim - to be heard.
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    (Original post by WelshBluebird)
    Why? They won't be getting any more money than what they are now so why would the fees help us compete any more than what
    £3k cap --> £9k cap, there's £6k extra going into their pockets.
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    (Original post by yahyahyahs)
    £3k cap --> £9k cap, there's £6k extra going into their pockets.
    Except the government are cutting the funding to unis by 80%. Which means unis will have to charge the higher fees just to get back to the level of funding they have today.
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    (Original post by RamocitoMorales)
    How will they be able to compete if their teaching budgets are being cut by 40% and their research grants are also being cut significantly. Take a look at this table,



    The UK will fall even further behind the likes of the USA, because their universities receive ridiculous sums of money in terms of endowment, and as a result, are able to attract the best academic scholars from around the world, and build the best facilities.

    Let's take an average highly rated UK university, say York. They get an endowment of £8.7 million from the government. Now let's take a counterpart from the US, say the University of Michigan. They get an $6.6 billion in endowment.

    Now let's take another example, regarding the higher end of the spectrum. Let's take Imperial College as an example. They get £276.6 million in terms of endowment (which is considerable compared to most in the UK). Now let's take a counterpart, say MIT. They get $8.3 billion a year.

    Finally, if we look at the very top end. Oxford get £3 billion. Harvard get $27.4 billion.

    So it's easy to conclude then, why the US universities are in a whole different galaxy in terms of academia. And the UK is only going to fall further behind, thanks to these cuts.
    That is exactly why the unis need higher fees because they need the money to better themselves. But they can't because they are bound by the state system which forces them to accept a cap in fees. Actually what unis need to do to develop their alumni links and/or ultimately privatised themselves, which I doubt will make much difference as the smartest and most intelligent will always end up at the top schools, for example Harvard, one of the top private universities in world, still has a freshman class made up of the best in the US despite the $30k price tag.

    And you can't compare York to Michigan. On their respective national rankings, York would be compared to Berkeley or Stanford.
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    I feel like moving to China, even though I don't know how to speak Chinese. :dontknow:
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      (Original post by yahyahyahs)
      And you can't compare York to Michigan. On their respective national rankings, York would be compared to Berkeley or Stanford.
      I do hope you're joking, as you'll find that Michigan is far superior to York and is one of the top universities in the US. Berkeley and Stanford are going on Oxford/Cambridge level.
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      (Original post by Burninginme2)
      What a silly comment. Macroeconomic health? I don't think so...

      If people get degrees in micky mouse subjects then come out and can't find a job in that subject how does it benefit anyone? The last thing we need is more unemployed grads!

      Looking at my current group of friends the ones earning the money are electricians, plummers and trademan in general. THe rest of my friends who did sports science, graphics etc are working for about £12k at the age of 23 I don't call that success!!!
      I think as long as a subject can provide marketable skills, then I couldn't care less. A better educated population leads to macroeconomic health in the future, this is fact.
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      (Original post by Threepigs)
      What if a student with great potential comes from a family which rely solely on government handouts? + aren't there maintenance fees on top of that sum?
      The papers say that the maintenance grant is going to be much higher under the new system and won't have to be paid back and that the first years tuition will be covered by somesort of scholarship grant that won't have to be paid back.
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      I'm fed up with the protests and the waste of tax payers money to police them. Demonstrating is fine as long as it stays peaceful, it's just really annoying when most of the demonstrators who talk to the camera crews go on about EMA and when asked about tuition fees they don't appear to know what's being proposed or why and definately don't understand it. They just seem to be out to have a laugh, make a lot of noise, smash stuff up and have a day off school.
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      Read this seriously... Why should people on lower incomes, some paying minimum wages pay for people to go to university and then earn averagely £100k more anyway? How can this many people, namely the students protesting be this myopic?

      I felt as though I was missing something, like I didn't really quite get 'it'. When asking a friend, why are you going to protest they said:
      'Because the state should pay for university!'

      But do you know where the state gets money from?!?!
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      (Original post by RamocitoMorales)
      I do hope you're joking, as you'll find that Michigan is far superior to York and is one of the top universities in the US. Berkeley and Stanford are going on Oxford/Cambridge level.
      The only thing Michigan is good for is creating musicals based on Harry Potter.
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      (Original post by WelshBluebird)
      Except the government are cutting the funding to unis by 80%. Which means unis will have to charge the higher fees just to get back to the level of funding they have today.
      But what else can they do? The government are certainly not going to give them more money so they are looking at other alternatives in order to stay open.

      Also (this is a separate point not directed at you) does anyone else realise that it is ultimately the unis' choice to charge these higher fees? The government is not making them, they are just giving universities the choice to.
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      (Original post by yahyahyahs)
      But what else can they do? The government are certainly not going to give them more money so they are looking at other alternatives in order to stay open.

      Also (this is a separate point not directed at you) does anyone else realise that it is ultimately the unis' choice to charge these higher fees? The government is not making them, they are just giving universities the choice to.
      My point was that you were saying unis will be better off financially. When in reality they probably won't be.

      I agree the unis don't have any other choice really. It is ultimately upto them, but in reality they don't have a choice as they will be much worse off financially if they don't increase fees. But IMO the unis shouldn't be put in this position anyway.
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      it's stupid - if you watch the interviews, they don't really understand economics (then again, I don't either). I saw a few of them around charing cross - clearly asbos - probably studying for a degree in free drinking.
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      (Original post by jaggedspike)
      No, you undermine Britain. Go check her achievements because you appreciate none of it. I genuinely feel sick when I hear people calling Britain that.

      His point is still valid, those that wish to be educated will follow the course regardless of its price.

      The USA doesn't have a free education system what are you on about, they don't even have a free national healthcare system. The only country I can remember that has free university education is Scotland.
      That is because Britain is a spineless pathetic shadow of what it once was.

      Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, France and Iceland all have free higher education. Coincidently they all have higher living standards and are far more pleasant places to live than this steaming pile of vomit land.

      Britain really is not that great.
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      The people here in Britiain (well, really england)...ahhh. All they do is complain. Americans pay almost 10 times the amount we do and yet they seem to manage to get into plenty of top non-Ivy universities without moaning about it. Oh and I'm not talking about billionaire texans who send their kids to yale simply because they afford it. Why can't people here just understand that fees will inevitably rise and deal with it. Besides, the new increased fees won't affect any of the students protesting, so they're wasting their time.
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      YEAH
     
     
     
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