Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Nationwide protests against tax avoiders - 4 Dec 2010 Watch

    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    As mentioned in previous threads, the reason why the term "avoidance" is being used by protestors is because if they say "evasion" in relation to specific targets, the libel lawyers will be onto them like a rash.

    They would love to say "evasion" as HMRC estimates that the amount lost to evasion every year is measured in £billions.

    The protests do 2 things:

    1) Tackles head on the 'morality' (which I accept is subjective) of tax avoidance - influencing public opinion on its acceptability
    2) Puts pressure on public authorities & government to both toughen the rules (legislation) & clamp down on evasion (enforcement).
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Prince Rhyus)
    As mentioned in previous threads, the reason why the term "avoidance" is being used by protestors is because if they say "evasion" in relation to specific targets, the libel lawyers will be onto them like a rash.

    They would love to say "evasion" as HMRC estimates that the amount lost to evasion every year is measured in £billions.

    The protests do 2 things:

    1) Tackles head on the 'morality' (which I accept is subjective) of tax avoidance - influencing public opinion on its acceptability
    2) Puts pressure on public authorities & government to both toughen the rules (legislation) & clamp down on evasion (enforcement).
    Layers would only be onto them if they used direct examples, but surely that is equally the case when using the term avoidance. Both are liable cases.

    'Evasion' certainly would be in the billions (tens at the very least) but avoidance is so wooley it has no limit.A protester once told me that because house sales are exempt from capital gains tens of billions were being avoided in tax. Very true, but if that is 'tax avoidance' then its a huge net.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Quady)
    'Evasion' certainly would be in the billions (tens at the very least) but avoidance is so wooley it has no limit.A protester once told me that because house sales are exempt from capital gains tens of billions were being avoided in tax. Very true, but if that is 'tax avoidance' then its a huge net.
    Good points - & I think the message that us protestors have to make clear is differentiating what I call "tax breaks" - which are actively used by HMG for a specific public policy purpose, vs "tax avoidance" where more often than not someone/a firm goes to a specialist tax advisor & normally involves "offshore banking" of some sort.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Prince Rhyus)
    As mentioned in previous threads, the reason why the term "avoidance" is being used by protestors is because if they say "evasion" in relation to specific targets, the libel lawyers will be onto them like a rash.

    They would love to say "evasion" as HMRC estimates that the amount lost to evasion every year is measured in £billions.

    The protests do 2 things:

    1) Tackles head on the 'morality' (which I accept is subjective) of tax avoidance - influencing public opinion on its acceptability
    2) Puts pressure on public authorities & government to both toughen the rules (legislation) & clamp down on evasion (enforcement).
    From the point of view of the protests misusing "avoidance" as a label is all well and good for legal purposes, however given the accountancy profession already has enough problens with MP's doing same (because they can't tell the difference) and the press reporting same, this adoption of "avoidance" is not at all helpful.

    As someone who works in accountancy/tax I would suggest that whilst this protest might have had benefits establishing a moral compass, inexactitude of expression is dangerous, and I hate to say, maybe harmful to progress re reducing artifical schemes of avoidance.

    Anyone who operates using extant legislation should not be tarred with the same brush as those who evade tax e.g.not being liable to UK tax because of residence is a clearly established UK and world view of taxation, embodied in myriad Double Tax Agreements between countries. This thread seems to feature at least one such individual. To try and place a moral compass against clearly agreed jurisdiction issues vis a vis taxation is stupid in the extreme.

    To take some of the posts on this thread to their logical conclusion, anyone owning shares in a UK company, irrespective of where they are resident, is to be considered "morally" liable to pay UK tax on same. Is that the considered view, that the UK can tax anyone in the world who holds shares in a UK company?
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Prince Rhyus)
    Good points - & I think the message that us protestors have to make clear is differentiating what I call "tax breaks" - which are actively used by HMG for a specific public policy purpose, vs "tax avoidance" where more often than not someone/a firm goes to a specialist tax advisor & normally involves "offshore banking" of some sort.
    That seems like a pretty sensible definition.

    In which case the protester community should build a case around off shore tax.

    I don't claim to know much about it, but I'd be surprised if this could not be legislated against, for example exit charging when a person or company moves domecial.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Quady)
    That seems like a pretty sensible definition.

    In which case the protester community should build a case around off shore tax.

    I don't claim to know much about it, but I'd be surprised if this could not be legislated against, for example exit charging when a person or company moves domecial.
    There are already exit charges extant in legislation re capital gains liable assets.

    Re trading income ongoing the key is where the trading arises, if within the UK it is already UK taxable notwithstanding where the company has residence.

    You ought to concentrate your efforts on those areas of tax HMRC control, Double Tax Agreements are not solely within UK control, they are agreed between the countries involved, take years to negotiate, and cannot be varied at whim of only one of the parties.

    Ask yourself how many small shops you go into that do not ring up on the till the value of your purchase, often it was say £5.70 say for an item but they ring £0.70. Try keeping an eye on these when you shop, maybe try to get public awareness re this.

    I take no issue with the idea that tax should not be evaded, but you are picking targets you do not have a hope of hitting.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DJKL)
    There are already exit charges extant in legislation re capital gains liable assets.

    Re trading income ongoing the key is where the trading arises, if within the UK it is already UK taxable notwithstanding where the company has residence.

    You ought to concentrate your efforts on those areas of tax HMRC control, Double Tax Agreements are not solely within UK control, they are agreed between the countries involved, take years to negotiate, and cannot be varied at whim of only one of the parties.

    Ask yourself how many small shops you go into that do not ring up on the till the value of your purchase, often it was say £5.70 say for an item but they ring £0.70. Try keeping an eye on these when you shop, maybe try to get public awareness re this.

    I take no issue with the idea that tax should not be evaded, but you are picking targets you do not have a hope of hitting.
    I like the way you divert attention from tax avoidance by billionaires to small shops which I presume are unlikely to be run by billionaires.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    I do hope you all [protest outside the guardian as a big tax avoider.
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Maker)
    I like the way you divert attention from tax avoidance by billionaires to small shops which I presume are unlikely to be run by billionaires.

    You are missing my point.

    Concentrating on avoidance by non residents is a waste of time. There are already adequate definitions of residence and the taxing interaction of countries are already, in the main, established. However much anyone protests UK tax authorities cannot change these without international consent.

    Yes you could argue a tightening up of regulation of the existing framework, to a degree already done with days of arrival and departure now being counted within the number of days within the UK for residence qualification.
    What exactly is wanted? What are specifics UK authorities should do?

    Accordingly, being pragmatic, any lobbying within the UK, to influence the UK Treasury, should be re matters the UK government has jurisdiction over. The UK black economy is such an area. No new legislation is needed , merely better enforcement of existing legislation.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: December 5, 2010
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Did TEF Bronze Award affect your UCAS choices?
    Useful resources

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.