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    i think if santa suddenly became black childen might catch onto the whole fictional aspect, what with him mysteriously changing colour
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    (Original post by Gizmo!)
    but they do accept them. so many beliefs based on fallacies on this forum that its unbelievable.
    I'm not saying they don't accept you categorically, but it is likely to affect your application and they would surely want to know about it. Of course if you can persuade them that you are suitable anyway they may still make you an offer.
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    (Original post by Arenas123)

    When you guys actually become doctors you'll see the most important thing is that you look after your patient. I've been going to doctors dinners all my life and they all talk about it.

    Example I've just been told this second. You have a dieing patient, He's extremely old and has a few weeks to live. A test result comes back that he is positive for rectal cancer which has a very high prevelance in old people. He asks you how the test was ? You're all medical students so you're all gonna say you tell him about it. You follow your precious GMC guidelines right ? Well the doctor sat next to me who's been a doctor longer than anyone on this forum tells me you lie to him and that you'll all see that when you're a doctor and not someone with a medical degree being trained.

    Maybe you can find me another case study ? .

    Then again from what all the doctors around me are saying this is what medical students are like. Full of useless semantics that apply to everyone except them. After this thread I know why I hear so many complaints about this generation of medical students. Why I've seen doctors hang up the phone to FY docs all the time for being idiots. Then the other half of people who are just bitter that they aren't medical students themselves.
    Firstly, work your way through here. Plenty of fraud and deceit.http://www.gmc-uk.org/concerns/heari..._decisions.asp

    Secondly, you've been to a few "doctor's dinners"? Sat next to a few doctors and heard their stories? What a reliable source of information you are! Frankly, I would believe the medical students who spend five days a week in hospital with the patients and doctors, experiencing things first hand over your hearsay anyday.

    Your example of lying to someone about a positive "test" for rectal cancer is absolutely heinous. You could be denying someone viable treatment options or at worst, condemning them to a slow and painful death without palliation leaving them to die in confusion and totally unprepared. To do this deliberately without exploring how much the patient wants to know would almost certainly lead to disciplinary action being taken by the GMC.

    It is a shame that your experiences of doctors has skewed your ideas of what is acceptable and unacceptable practice, it really is. Perhaps one of our junior doctors could give their opinion of whether these things only apply to medical students.
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    (Original post by Beska)
    I am not sure if you are actually stupid or are just acting dense. In either case, point by point, here's a retort:

    1. Although some medical schools do not give their own declaration during freshers doesn't matter because he as already digitally signed a declaration through UCAS. Irrelevant point.

    2. No, this is a typical thread on the medicine forum where lots and lots of people who generally know what they are talking about give their opinions and somebody who can't read and comprehend properly doesn't understand them. Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they are automatically wrong.

    3. Brilliant anecdote. Unfortunately, it means **** all. It means even less because it is talking about medical schools in the USA.

    4. I know you'd have been devastated. But the fact of the matter is that 1) pharmacy school is not medical school and 2) you did not lie to get in.

    5. Irrelevant points. As much as you like watching 'House' and applying it to real life, if doctors compulsively lied like you are insinuating then paper trails would come and bite them in the ass.

    6. Lie to him? That's ridiculous. This may be just my own bias view but I'd never tell a patient he was not going to die when he is - that's so cruel.

    So basically, yet again, you miss the point completely and condone lying because "I heard a story about doctors in Australia that lie a lot."
    she said the pt was already dying, so a situation like that would make a very good ethical question. - so lying to him isn't really cruel. (though I'd wonder why the test was even done in the first place - and need a more fuller picture before I passed judgement.
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    (Original post by rainbowbex)
    she said the pt was already dying, so a situation like that would make a very good ethical question. - so lying to him isn't really cruel. (though I'd wonder why the test was even done in the first place - and need a more fuller picture before I passed judgement.
    No, it really wouldn't make a good ethical question, whatsoever.
    Doctors have a responsibility towards the patient to inform them of what's going on.

    If this situation were to occur, and the family got wind of what was going on, their would be litigation left, right and centre...rightfully so.
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    (Original post by Arenas123)
    For everyone else I don't want advice on the blackmail issue. If it comes down to staying in medical school or paying I know he will do it.

    You know murder is always an option. Not that I'm advocating it of course, but concrete boots and a little boat trip can work wonders in solving a problem like this...


    On a serious note, no friggin idea, just thought I'd post a pointless comment of no worth whatsoever. Reading the relevant course handbook would help of course...
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    (Original post by rainbowbex)
    she said the pt was already dying, so a situation like that would make a very good ethical question. - so lying to him isn't really cruel. (though I'd wonder why the test was even done in the first place - and need a more fuller picture before I passed judgement.
    It has implications on palliative care options for the patient. While they may not want treatment for their rectal cancer (presumably metastatic), they may decide on pain relief, radiotherapy, antiemetics, antimuscarinics etc.

    Palliative care teams aren't going to a take a "?cancer somewhere" referral.
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    What a jobby. What if after you give him the cash he still threatens him? You can't trust someone who is bkackmailing you in the first place. It sounds like an awful situation to be in, sorry i can't offer any decent advice. You need to get this other guy sorted likes. Good luck and yeah i accept what your friend did was wrong but this guy is being a bit of a **********. X
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    (Original post by digitalis)
    It has implications on palliative care options for the patient. While they may not want treatment for their rectal cancer (presumably metastatic), they may decide on pain relief, radiotherapy, antiemetics, antimuscarinics etc.

    Palliative care teams aren't going to a take a "?cancer somewhere" referral.
    In a situation where it wasn't the cancer that was going to kill him?

    (Original post by Altrozero)
    No, it really wouldn't make a good ethical question, whatsoever.
    Doctors have a responsibility towards the patient to inform them of what's going on.

    If this situation were to occur, and the family got wind of what was going on, their would be litigation left, right and centre...rightfully so.

    I mean insofar as much as I can see an argument for both sides of issue.
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    (Original post by rainbowbex)
    In a situation where it wasn't the cancer that was going to kill him?
    Doesn't really make a difference as long as there is no immediate risk to self or others of you telling him (i.e. telling that to someone who is severely depressed and who has tried to commit suicide in the past may require some consideration if you think that would trigger another attempt or a decline in their mental health-nb depression is not a blanket barrier to disclosure).

    The patient has specifically asked
    asks you how the test was ?
    and lying to him would be failing in your duty as a doctor.

    see page 1 of the OHCM, the new hippocratic oath para 5 "...I will help patients find the information and support they want to make decisions on their healthcare"
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    (Original post by Beska)
    Yup, and mentioned it at all my interviewers thus far. I don't understand your point?
    Oh I was just wondering Hope it goes well this time around!
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    I think someones been watching too much 'house'. let's lie to our patients :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Lu-x)
    Oh I was just wondering Hope it goes well this time around!
    Thanks!
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    (Original post by Arenas123)
    I have a family friend who I don't really know that well but I've been asked to find out what could happen to him.

    Basically he tried to get in to medical school here but didn't, So he went to medical school in India. While he was there he applied here again. When he was asked what he did in his gap year he said ''I spent it in India''. Did not mention the fact he had been to medical school.

    Now this guy from India has shown up at his university (KCL if that matters) and is threatening to report him to the medical school.

    I rang the medical school for him yesterday. I asked if they would consider someone who has started medical school elsewhere. They said no.

    Can he really be kicked out of medical school ? He's paid for one year's tuition already and is half way through the year. He has been truthful about his grades and everything else. It's not like this is something like a criminal record.

    Please could someone give me there oppinion. If it is a problem he's going to have to pay this guy not to say anything and he's asking for a lot.
    Hmm this is tricky.

    Strictly speaking, no medical school would consider anyone for admission havng commenced a programme of medical study at any other medical school and then subsequently withdraing for whatever reason. Mainly this due to number of reasons; committment to study, suitability for Medicine, fitness to practice issues etc.

    When making an application form you are asked to declare any relevant information as appropriately and truthfully as possibly. This would include any past record of study either in the UK and abroad. So technically if this information were to be brought to KCL's attention and there was evidence to support this then yes he could possibly be asked to leave the course or maybe have to attend a disciplinary hearing etc. Lying in itself constitute's unprofessionalism and is considered a serious matter by the GMC.

    I have know students do similar things; not get a place in the UK but have the grades. Go to Prague etc and apply again during their first year of study and withdraw from Prague if they get an offer to study in the UK. Whether they tell the medical school this or not is a different story (I think they don't tell them). The one example I knew subsequently got kicked out of the UK medical school she attended due to failing exams as opposed to having lied about her previous academic record.

    I would suggest your friend seek legal advice about this.


    Then we need to address the blackmail situation. Who exactly is this person? Is he/she a student from the Indian medical school? Family friend? Course friend who found out about the past record? Lecturer? What he/she is doing is a serious offence and perhaps you should consider police involvement. Do not consider paying this person a single penny, you'd be a fool to do so as he/she can easily report the information again at a later point.

    I'm afraid that's all I can advise you as unsurprisingly this is a situation I have thankfully never encountered personally. All I can say is that your friend should explore all avenues including legal and possibly the MDU or MPS before deciding on your next move.

    Take care.

    P.S. It might be worth carrying a dictaphone in your pocket or something that can record conversations next time you're meeting "the blackmailer". Just a hint.
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    Well the indian guy must of been going to the med school in india and then came here so wouldn't he be in **** aswell?
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    (Original post by Arenas123)
    I have a family friend who I don't really know that well but I've been asked to find out what could happen to him.

    Basically he tried to get in to medical school here but didn't, So he went to medical school in India. While he was there he applied here again. When he was asked what he did in his gap year he said ''I spent it in India''. Did not mention the fact he had been to medical school.

    Now this guy from India has shown up at his university (KCL if that matters) and is threatening to report him to the medical school.

    I rang the medical school for him yesterday. I asked if they would consider someone who has started medical school elsewhere. They said no.

    Can he really be kicked out of medical school ? He's paid for one year's tuition already and is half way through the year. He has been truthful about his grades and everything else. It's not like this is something like a criminal record.

    Please could someone give me there oppinion. If it is a problem he's going to have to pay this guy not to say anything and he's asking for a lot.
    Hmm this is tricky.

    Strictly speaking, no medical school would consider anyone for admission havng commenced a programme of medical study at any other medical school and then subsequently withdraing for whatever reason. Mainly this due to number of reasons; committment to study, suitability for Medicine, fitness to practice issues etc.

    When making an application form you are asked to declare any relevant information as appropriately and truthfully as possibly. This would include any past record of study either in the UK and abroad. So technically if this information were to be brought to KCL's attention and there was evidence to support this then yes he could possibly be asked to leave the course or maybe have to attend a disciplinary hearing etc. Lying in itself constitute's unprofessionalism and is considered a serious matter by the GMC.

    I have know students do similar things; not get a place in the UK but have the grades. Go to Prague etc and apply again during their first year of study and withdraw from Prague if they get an offer to study in the UK. Whether they tell the medical school this or not is a different story (I think they don't tell them). The one example I knew subsequently got kicked out of the UK medical school she attended due to failing exams as opposed to having lied about her previous academic record.

    I would suggest your friend seek legal advice about this.


    Then we need to address the blackmail situation. Who exactly is this person? Is he/she a student from the Indian medical school? Family friend? Course friend who found out about the past record? Lecturer? What he/she is doing is a serious offence and perhaps you should consider police involvement. Do not consider paying this person a single penny, you'd be a fool to do so as he/she can easily report the information again at a later point.

    I'm afraid that's all I can advise you as unsurprisingly this is a situation I have thankfully never encountered personally. All I can say is that your friend should explore all avenues including legal and possibly the MDU or MPS before deciding on your next move.

    Take care.

    P.S. It might be worth carrying a dictaphone in your pocket or something that can record conversations next time you're meeting "the blackmailer". Just a hint.
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    (Original post by rainbowbex)
    In a situation where it wasn't the cancer that was going to kill him?




    I mean insofar as much as I can see an argument for both sides of issue.

    Horse****. This is IMO a very clear cut situation. Patients have the fundamental right to control their own treatment and by extension be in control of their own life. (patients under section is however an acceptable grey area) Therefore by lying to them you're removing the ability of the patient to choose exactly how he's going to die. Not only that you have to explain to him the benefits and side affects of palliative care, and you can't do that without informing what you're treating in the first place.

    Think about it this way: Either way there's only one prognosis for the patient. Either he can be told the outcome and be given the chance to make the most of his time left, be that through seeing family or friends and to be made as comfortable and felt cared for as much as is possible (the later being probably the most important to terminal patients), or he can be left in the dark not making the most of his time and present back to the oncology team when he's in absolute agony.
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    Yeah doctors only lie on medical shows. In real life they're all saints that can resite the GMC guidelines like that tool. You all seriously think Doctors don't break any GMC guidelines ? They ALL break ones far worse than this.

    I know a guy who did the same with Prague. Everyone knows, one of his lecturers regularly jokes about it in front of the whole year.

    I know a guy that had a caution for assault on his CRB. He got it in the summer before med school started. He starts med school they find out. He goes before a disciplinary panel and fully expects to be kicked out. He gets put on probation for a year, Which basically meant he would have to seriously mess up AGAIN to get kicked out. All he has to do to stay in med school is not mess up again for the rest of the year ? So difficult.

    Someone find me a case study or even a story of someone that got kicked out SOLELY for not mentioning a university they attended in the past ? You wont find one You wont even find one for someone who attended an English university. It's still not a good enough reason (if that's the only reason) to kick someone out. Well someone with a decent lawyer
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    (Original post by Arenas123)
    Yeah doctors only lie on medical shows. In real life they're all saints that can resite the GMC guidelines like that tool. You all seriously think Doctors don't break any GMC guidelines ? They ALL break ones far worse than this.

    I know a guy who did the same with Prague. Everyone knows, one of his lecturers regularly jokes about it in front of the whole year.

    I know a guy that had a caution for assault on his CRB. He got it in the summer before med school started. He starts med school they find out. He goes before a disciplinary panel and fully expects to be kicked out. He gets put on probation for a year, Which basically meant he would have to seriously mess up AGAIN to get kicked out. All he has to do to stay in med school is not mess up again for the rest of the year ? So difficult.

    Someone find me a case study or even a story of someone that got kicked out SOLELY for not mentioning a university they attended in the past ? You wont find one You wont even find one for someone who attended an English university. It's still not a good enough reason (if that's the only reason) to kick someone out. Well someone with a decent lawyer
    Case study? Why on Earth do you think cases about individuals being kicked out of medical schools would be published in case studies?

    Also they actually can find out if you attended another UK university. It's called UCAS you know the "Universities and Colleges Applications Services" which keeps a record of current and past applications hence it would only take a matter of seconds and a few clicks to discover your past UK university record. Also LEA would keep a track of such things if you applied for student funding. So you shot yourself in the foot there.

    If it's clearly written in their admissions policy then that's their rules, you can't argue with that. The rules apply to all students. Also the Doctors that break far worse guidlines than this most of the time do get caught and reprimanded by the GMC.

    Also if you don't mind me saying you seem quite inflammed and passionate about this topic and the replies received given you only posted for advice about "your friend"? Either you must be extremely close to your friend that you would share his pain and suffering like you were Frodo and Sam with the ring or maybe you and your friend are one and the same like Batman and Bruce Wayne?

    You've heard the replies and the advice. If you....sorry....you're friend is being blackmailed then I suggest you pursue legal avenues and involve the police.

    If KCL clearly state a policy of not admitting students to the course if they began a programme of Medical study elsewhere and then this information which you....your friend concealed then suddenly comes to light then I would be prepared to explain the situation. It would be solely up to the medical school's fitness to practice committee to decide where to go on this on. They could well let you off with "probation" or if they deem it to be too serious a breach of the rules and/or your friends record to date has been dubious academically and professionally, then they may well decide to terminate your course of study.

    At our medica school it clearly states in the "Student Declaration" we sign on our first day that the Dean/Medical School reserves the right to ask a student to withdraw from the medical programme if previously undeclared information which was considered to be important and deliberately concealed by the student, came to light.

    This isn't about having studied elsewhere and then coming to KCL. It's about lying when asked in good faith by selectors and admissions tutors to declare as much required information as possible. They do this to make a fair judgement when selecting candidates who will one day be responsible for the healthcare and well being of patients. Part of the qualities of being a responsible doctor is being truthful and honest to patients, their families and colleagues. If at such an early stage of the programme you are demonstrating such undesirable characteristics to conceal information which may well have influenced the outcome of your application, do you honestly think this would bode well for somebody who in less than 6 years would be directly invovled in the care of a patient?

    Medical schools and their staff have a duty of care not only to their students but to the wider community to ensure that they're training students to become professional and caring clinicians. That includes producing a set of guidelines and regulations to which all students are expected to adhere to.
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    (Original post by Warrior King)
    Case study? Why on Earth do you think cases about individuals being kicked out of medical schools would be published in case studies?

    Also they actually can find out if you attended another UK university. It's called UCAS you know the "Universities and Colleges Applications Services" which keeps a record of current and past applications hence it would only take a matter of seconds and a few clicks to discover your past UK university record. Also LEA would keep a track of such things if you applied for student funding. So you shot yourself in the foot there.

    If it's clearly written in their admissions policy then that's their rules, you can't argue with that. The rules apply to all students. Also the Doctors that break far worse guidlines than this most of the time do get caught and reprimanded by the GMC.

    Also if you don't mind me saying you seem quite inflammed and passionate about this topic and the replies received given you only posted for advice about "your friend"? Either you must be extremely close to your friend that you would share his pain and suffering like you were Frodo and Sam with the ring or maybe you and your friend are one and the same like Batman and Bruce Wayne?

    You've heard the replies and the advice. If you....sorry....you're friend is being blackmailed then I suggest you pursue legal avenues and involve the police.

    If KCL clearly state a policy of not admitting students to the course if they began a programme of Medical study elsewhere and then this information which you....your friend concealed then suddenly comes to light then I would be prepared to explain the situation. It would be solely up to the medical school's fitness to practice committee to decide where to go on this on. They could well let you off with "probation" or if they deem it to be too serious a breach of the rules and/or your friends record to date has been dubious academically and professionally, then they may well decide to terminate your course of study.

    At our medica school it clearly states in the "Student Declaration" we sign on our first day that the Dean/Medical School reserves the right to ask a student to withdraw from the medical programme if previously undeclared information which was considered to be important and deliberately concealed by the student, came to light.

    This isn't about having studied elsewhere and then coming to KCL. It's about lying when asked in good faith by selectors and admissions tutors to declare as much required information as possible. They do this to make a fair judgement when selecting candidates who will one day be responsible for the healthcare and well being of patients. Part of the qualities of being a responsible doctor is being truthful and honest to patients, their families and colleagues. If at such an early stage of the programme you are demonstrating such undesirable characteristics to conceal information which may well have influenced the outcome of your application, do you honestly think this would bode well for somebody who in less than 6 years would be directly invovled in the care of a patient?

    Medical schools and their staff have a duty of care not only to their students but to the wider community to ensure that they're training students to become professional and caring clinicians. That includes producing a set of guidelines and regulations to which all students are expected to adhere to.
    I'm passionate about this now because of the fact I've been negged to no end. Getting rid of all my positive rep. People on this thread have all ganged up on me for no end and that's why I'm acting this way

    Why the hell do people keep saying this is me ? Just look at my posting history and you'd see I'm clearly not a medical student..... 3 years of posting history I know but trust me I'm not.

    As for your student declaration idea I've never heard of it and I'm sure your bending it a bit. Or it's different in context. It's in nobodies interest to kick someone out who has already started medical school. The government has paid for his year of degree. You can't exactly get someone else in half way through second year. Medical schools lose enough people through failing/not liking med school. I'm sure they would kick someone out for not disclosing something serious. Which this isn't

    I agree with you on the UCAS thing but this will be my last post on this thread.

    I will just advise anyone that finds themselves in this situation to get legal advice and be graceful and polite when dealing with the medical school. Unless you have past indiscretions/ other major ones, You wont be kicked out Before you believe what people have mentioned on this thread about the doctor that was struck of, Do some research on the guy and you'll see that he was in a far more serious position than you are probably in and his discretions lasted from medical school all the way to fellowship level. Ignore all the people making you fell bad by resiting GMC guidelines, they don't mean that much, "Guide'' being the main word. I am NOT encouraging people to lie on UCAS forms. This will only work for non UK medical schools and how many people attend those ?
 
 
 
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