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Andy Grey says that Messi couldn't cope in the EPL Watch

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    (Original post by MoMatrix)
    Albert Luque( has lost his way since Newcastle),Baha,Eliseu,Quincy,Du da,Juanito,Apono(pretty good but no household name) and Maresca and Demichelis have just come in recently.
    I'll give you Quincy and Maresca but I think the others are going too far.

    Also it's why I said I don't really like comparing players, it just seems fruitless? E.g. compare them with bottom of EPL West Ham... a lot of parallels; talented African winger (Quincy and Obinna), veteran midfielder who hasn't played yet, but it's still a name (Maresca and Hitzlsperger), then you have Scotty Parker, pride of English football Carlton Cole, World cup goalscorer Upson, world renowned keeper Green. See where I'm going
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    (Original post by n1r4v)
    Sorry, only just saw this edit.

    I get the feeling that people say this simply because Barcelona are by far the best team in the world right now and Real are probably in the top 3 as well and then proceed to extrapolate this to other Spanish teams.

    I've tried not to use my personal judgements on the teams because 1) nobody seems to care about subjective opinions on this forum and 2) I only really watch poorer Spanish teams when they play Barca / Real Madrid and so they'll tend to play in a different way, thus making comparisons a bit skewed; which is why I've tried to purely use objective measures and comparisons. But if we're going for feelings, I just feel strongly that "poorer" English teams look a lot better than poorer Spanish teams when playing.
    http://www.skysports.com/opinion/sto...563395,00.html

    I think Mr Balague makes some very valid points.
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    All this "Messi is so small," "Messi is too weak" for the EPL is complete nonsense.

    Gianfranco Zola is 5'5" which is 2 inches shorter than Messi, and he inexplicably(!!!!!!) managed to do just fine.
    Carlos Tevez is only 1 inch taller than Messi. Aaron Lennon is 5'5". Paul Scholes is 5'7" the same as Messi.

    Jermain Defoe is also 5'7" and he finds the net with regularity in England - why would Messi be any different?
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    I don't think Messi would struggle in the premier league but compared to La liga i think he wouldn't score and assist as many. As for Barca they would dominate just like they do back in Spain but then again i don't think they would get as many decisions as they do back in Spain, they may be the best footballing team in the world but they are also the best cheaters in the world. Honestly they surround refs and moan over every decision(much more then Chelsea and Man utd) and Iniesta hits the ground like he orgasms every time his face touches a blade of grass!
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    (Original post by Barça)
    LMAO, no it's not. That's the whole point of this absurdity. I suppose you never get cold winter nights at the San Mames with 11 Basque players trying to kick you in the face. Sometimes literally.

    By the way would Zidane, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo, Ronaldo, Figo, Redondo etc. all struggle against the mighty Stoke at the Britannia in a January night? If Messi should struggle then so should the rest of the players that have played in 'sunny' Spain' (Never mind the winter weather being near identical).
    I'm not saying he'd definitely play terrible or anything, I'm just saying that people seem to think Messi isn't capable of playing a bad game ever - but I think that if Messi were to play in poor conditions there, him struggling wouldn't be as surprising as on any other day...
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    So true :yep: LaLiga is a total joke, Messi just glides past everybody. In the premier league he wouldn't get the time or the space.
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    (Original post by dnumberwang)
    Iniesta, the shiny forehead diving **** on the other hand...
    Of all the footballers in the world you could choose to dislike...

    Really?

    He's not only a probably the most technically gifted footballer in the world, he's loyal and demonstrates some humility. He even chose to dedicate his crowning moment to a rival club who had experienced a tragedy. Refreshingly different from any number of ***** that play in this division.
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    (Original post by Barça)
    Espanyol are probably the most physical La Liga side along with Bilbao, yet Messi always performs against them. He gets kicked everywhere La Liga, CL you name it. Remember the systemic fouling by Madrid two years ago? He got fouled like crazy but carried on as normal and scored a goal. I mean EPL players don't kick harder, a kick is a kick and his balance and agility makes it difficult to throw him away from the ball and I sincerely believe Stoke wouldn't be able to muster the attacking prowess of Barcelona, we would simply play them off the park.
    Man-for-man Chelsea/Man Utd/Arsenal are much better than Stoke but they've never had any easy match at Stoke. Of course, Barca are technically superior but would they be able to deal with the throw ins? The early ball into the box for the big men? Stoke test you in very different ways. I don’t think it is as simple as turning up and playing them off the park - none of the Big 4 have done so since Stoke have been promoted to the Premiership.
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    I would love to see Stoke vs Barcelona, probably would end up with messi scoring 50
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    (Original post by -Matty-)
    http://www.skysports.com/opinion/sto...563395,00.html

    I think Mr Balague makes some very valid points.
    Okay I'll start with his weaker point about it having "Best Players". I think it's a bit odd that he's using the Ballon D'or 2010 as the judge for it having better players, especially when he's comparing leagues, when the Ballon D'or is brazenly biased towards World Cup performances. I don't think comparing leagues via the Ballon D’or when Spain won the world cup and England had a terrible world cup, is valid (and he also makes points about players of certain nationalities being better, which I also don't understand). Even then, 19 of the 23 nominees play for either Inter, Bayern, Real Madrid or Barcelona. I don't think anyone doubts that Barca (which is the basis of a lot of his argument) and maybe Real are the best teams in the world and have the best concentration of players. Also by his own line of argument, doesn't that mean that the Bundesliga (5 nominees) and Serie A (4 nominees) have better players than the EPL? This year’s Ballon D'or naturally has a Spain World Cup influence, but looking at previous Balon D'ors, 2009 had 13 LL v 10 EPL, 2008 (Spain Euro year) had 11 LL v 11 EPL, 2007 had 15 LL v 15 EPL, so the composition is uncharacteristic, especially when previous years show it to be a lot more even. I'm also not sure why he only focussed on this year's Ballon Do'r when he discussed years going back to 2004 regarding league stats, but anyway...

    Onto his strong points... because I started watching La Liga frequently last year, I'm mainly familiar with the league during the 2009-10 season. But I did some quick analysis on previous La Liga tables and he's got some good points, but he doesn't express / calculate them in the right way. Anyone with ulterior motives or lack of objectivity could counter them with ease. His selection of comparing 1st to 6th teams is a bit arbitrary, especially with the calculations going back to 2004. I've noticed he focusses only on previous seasons when it suits La Liga e.g. there was a discussion where he dismissed the excellent record of PL teams in previous seasons because Barca were the current holders (at the time). But anyway, I'm sure if you compared 1st to 3rd/4th over the years it may not be as pronounced.

    His strongest point was the argument he made immediately after that, trying to compare "competitiveness". Again he goes about it in the wrong way because calculating the range is not a robust measure of dispersion, especially when you have 'outliers' like Sunderland in the 2005-6 season and Derby in the 2007-8 season (and possibly Portsmouth last season if he left the points deducted, but I don't think he did). People can draw their own conclusions as to the interesting points gaps in the last few seasons, but calculating the SD / variance and then comparing is probably the best idea. Last season, the variance was slightly lower for the EPL compared to La Liga (when corrected for Portsmouth point deductions though), and so far this season's EPL has a significantly lower variance than La Liga. However, I compared a few variances in seasons before 2009-10 and in those, La Liga indeed had lower variances than the EPL.

    So the main point which I agree with is that there must have been a couple of seasons before the 2009-10 season where La Liga had a lower variance than the EPL and Guillem could consequently say that La Liga was more competitive before the 2009-10 season (even though he used the cruder measure of range instead). Though one must wonder why this means La Liga is more competitive now? Of course, ol' Gavin could also point out that during the seasons before 09-10, English teams were having great runs in the CL and that after the 07-08 season, the EPL had the best league coefficient and might have explained the variance differences. But then Senor Bernardo could counter that United and Chelsea are poor this season, which may account for the ridiculously low variance in the EPL thus far. And so on.

    Anyway, while everyone tries to be as objective as possible, it's inevitable that subjective judgements will eventually be thrown into the mix. Seeing as joke tournaments like the Intertoto cup, where "lower" teams from different leagues play each other, have been scrapped, it's even more difficult to make valid comparisons.
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    (Original post by Mr Disco)
    Of all the footballers in the world you could choose to dislike...

    Really?

    He's not only a probably the most technically gifted footballer in the world, he's loyal and demonstrates some humility. He even chose to dedicate his crowning moment to a rival club who had experienced a tragedy. Refreshingly different from any number of ***** that play in this division.
    He still dives a lot, you can't argue with that, plus I'm just prejudiced towards the whole spanish team because I hated them during the world cup
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    (Original post by Mastermind`)
    Man-for-man Chelsea/Man Utd/Arsenal are much better than Stoke but they've never had any easy match at Stoke. Of course, Barca are technically superior but would they be able to deal with the throw ins? The early ball into the box for the big men? Stoke test you in very different ways. I don’t think it is as simple as turning up and playing them off the park - none of the Big 4 have done so since Stoke have been promoted to the Premiership.
    Barcelona are not the top4, though our game is different. It's based on possession and pressure to the point where we are stand out team in the world. Sure we may have to battle but we did so against Espanyol who probably put up with the most physical game this season and they got spanked 5-1. The only way Stoke would make it difficult is park the bus a la Chelsea/Inter/United etc. if they tried to play football it would end in a mauling.
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    What a load of trash.

    The Spanish League, poor? Okay, I don't deny Man City or Tottenham are better than Villareal or Valencia. But between that and saying the Spanish La Liga is **** there's a vast difference. The Spanish League is according to most, the world's second best football league in the world without a doubt. For some, even better than the EPL. Barcelona and Real Madrid are light years ahead of the rest, but there are very competitive teams that can hold their own with any European elite team.

    It's not like the cold would affect Messi's performance. Messi is the world's best player and I'm sure he would perform in the EPL. And if he didn't, it would be because he wouldn't have Xavi or Iniesta by his side. Messi doesn't score so many goals because the Spanish League is poor. He scores because he's the best by far. And he's got a great team behind his back, too. Messi has scored against the best teams in Spain and Europe. That's a little something Cristiano can't say he's done since he joined Real Madrid.
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    A lot of resentment since the World Cup, I see...
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    I think Andy Gray has a fair point on this, put him up against a proper physical team then I reckon he would struggle, with due respect as good as Arsenal are they are not a physical team and they hate it when they come up against a team with a lot of agression
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    To the people calling Madrid the 2nd best in the world right now, on what basis is this being said? Yes they have a great collection of individual players, but as a team they've struggled in Europe for the last 6 years and haven't even dominated their own league. Even last year, with a revamped squad they went no further in Europe than previous seasons. I'd argue that Chelsea and United have been better teams because not only have they been equally dominant in their own leagues, but also been involved at the top end of Europe for the last couple of years, going further than Real have on most occasions.
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    I really can't understand this hype about Stoke troubling the top teams in the world. Why Stoke City. They dont have any world class players or play decent football, there just an average premier league team. Below average in fact. Theyr'e just a team from a miserable north english city where the weather is often cold and the people are poor. Does that make them hard for some reason..
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    (Original post by Charzhino)
    I really can't understand this hype about Stoke troubling the top teams in the world. Why Stoke City. They dont have any world class players or play decent football, there just an average premier league team. Below average in fact. Theyr'e just a team from a miserable north english city where the weather is often cold and the people are poor. Does that make them hard for some reason..
    Lol'd, I'd never mess with a Stoke lad. What do you mean why stoke city though? As in why they've specifically been chosen as an example of a team who could apparently beat Barca?

    (Original post by ish90an)
    To the people calling Madrid the 2nd best in the world right now, on what basis is this being said? Yes they have a great collection of individual players, but as a team they've struggled in Europe for the last 6 years and haven't even dominated their own league. Even last year, with a revamped squad they went no further in Europe than previous seasons. I'd argue that Chelsea and United have been better teams because not only have they been equally dominant in their own leagues, but also been involved at the top end of Europe for the last couple of years, going further than Real have on most occasions.
    Only I said that in the thread I think; I said top 3 though.
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    (Original post by n1r4v)
    Lol'd, I'd never mess with a Stoke lad. What do you mean why stoke city though? As in why they've specifically been chosen as an example of a team who could apparently beat Barca?


    Exactly, Andy Gay is promoting thuggery will outshine class and technique. Yeah why Stoke, why not Blackburn or Bolton?
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    (Original post by Charzhino)
    Exactly, Andy Gay is promoting thuggery will outshine class and technique. Yeah why Stoke, why not Blackburn or Bolton?
    Bolton aren't the best example anymore.

    Stoke (and Blackburn) I presume would be used because they're probably the best teams to highlight the intransitivity of football due to their well, 'unique', playing style. E.g. by intransitive I mean that just because say Chelsea beat Arsenal and Arsenal beat City, doesn't mean that Chelsea will beat City.

    Arsenal are better than Stoke, but if it was the last 10 mins against a team defending solidly, I wouldn't be surprised if people would fancy Stoke to score 1 by bundling in from wave after wave of launches, instead of watching Arsenal attempting to play through the team bus. A lot of people believe that there's no "one beats all" style in football and it's more rock-paper-scissors and Stoke's "specialist" way of testing teams means that they could lose to Bolton one week and then beat Arsenal later on via two Delap launches (which happened when they first got promoted)
 
 
 
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