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A Look at Feminism - From a Different Perspective Watch

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    (Original post by Dark Horse)
    Erm, it's been 60 years since that was considered the norm. :rolleyes:
    Exactly, which is why I was saying I don't agree with people who think that archaically. :facepalm2:
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    "Frequency hopping" is a very important electronic communication method that is used today everywhere that wireless data is transmitted.

    It was invented by a Hollywood actress called Hedy Lamar (and her male colleague George) and given to the US Navy FOR FREE during WWII. And the Navy said? "Don't be daft - you're just a woman. Go back to acting and use your pretty face to raise money for the war effort."

    She was finally given credit for her invention thirty years later...

    That was feminism then. Feminism now means that women get put forward for awards in engineering because they're women. And I know, because I was nominated for one. I know there are lots of women out there who would rather be given credit for their work than patted on the head and told "clever you! Look what you achieved, even though you're a girl!"

    I can see both sides... We just can't find the balance, though...


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    (Original post by Evangelica)
    Exactly, which is why I was saying I don't agree with people who think that archaically. :facepalm2:
    Me neither. But it's a familiar tone among feminists on TSR who are attempting to generate sympathy for their cause. Surely there's better ways than moaning about The Way Things Were years ago. :rolleyes:

    (Original post by Cuki)
    "Frequency hopping" is a very important electronic communication method that is used today everywhere that wireless data is transmitted.

    It was invented by a Hollywood actress called Hedy Lamar (and her male colleague George) and given to the US Navy FOR FREE during WWII. And the Navy said? "Don't be daft - you're just a woman. Go back to acting and use your pretty face to raise money for the war effort."

    She was finally given credit for her invention thirty years later...

    That was feminism then. Feminism now means that women get put forward for awards in engineering because they're women. And I know, because I was nominated for one. I know there are lots of women out there who would rather be given credit for their work than patted on the head and told "clever you! Look what you achieved, even though you're a girl!"

    I can see both sides... We just can't find the balance, though...



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    The whole feminism thing has the potential to cause alot of tension between the two genders. I personally have been called a misogynist multiple times simply by not pandering to every point made about "gender inequality" or "women's oppression". :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Harley)
    the only thing women care about is how much we can mooch off those hardworking men :rolleyes:

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    I knew it!
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    This letter does have truth in it. In today's society due to the spread of liberal capitalism people want more, they are not happy with what they have, buy more, spend more and want more. This way of life leads to problems in personal relationships too, it amplifies the "grass is greener" feeling people have and thus prevents them from working through their problems. This is a problem with both genders not just one and it sickens me.
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    (Original post by Dark Horse)
    Me neither. But it's a familiar tone among feminists on TSR who are attempting to generate sympathy for their cause. Surely there's better ways than moaning about The Way Things Were years ago. :rolleyes:
    Lol this is a lesson to you not to jump into people's conversations thinking you understand what they're talking about because you obviously have no clue what I was saying :lol: I'm not complaining about 'the way things were', someone said that the writer couldn't possibly be a modern woman, and I simply replied that there are still women today who have mentalities of the past. Understand?

    I'm not trying to be patronising, it's just that everything you seem to be arguing against is nothing I've said, so it's all a bit of a fruitless exchange.
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    (Original post by Gray Wolf)
    This letter does have truth in it. In today's society due to the spread of liberal capitalism people want more, they are not happy with what they have, buy more, spend more and want more. This way of life leads to problems in personal relationships too, it amplifies the "grass is greener" feeling people have and thus prevents them from working through their problems. This is a problem with both genders not just one and it sickens me.
    (Original post by Gray Wolf)
    Maybe this is because they can't. Many women lack interest in politics and lack the necessary drive. This is evolutionary fact, our brains no matter how much people wish to deny it are hard wired in to certain things. Men are more controlling more dominant and so wish to influence others, which entails them going in to politics. This is also why it is the women that have masculine characteristics that come to power i.e.. The "IRON" Lady.
    Quoting you from another thread cos these posts kinda tie together to make a point. What we have here is a classic is-ought problem. Even if we accept that the brains of men and women are 'wired' in fundamentally different ways it doesn't mean the result of that is necessarily what should be. The system that has emerged over the course of history essentially rewards masculinity. All the traits that make a person successful in a capitalist system are traditionally masculine traits such as ruthlessness, competitiveness and greed. Traditionally feminine traits, such as empathy and co-operative problem solving, have no place in it. As a result, the feminine and the poor (who are seen as failures) are effectively locked out of power. This is what feminists mean by 'patriarchy'. It's a system that doesn't necessarily elevate men, but masculinity, and it serves those at the top. It's not surprising women lack interest in politics when you think about who the system primarily benefits.
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    (Original post by Dark Horse)
    This was written by a Mother. A concerned Mother, worrying about her son's options when it comes to relationships.

    Source: http://shiningpearlsofsomething.blog...us-letter.html
    ________________________

    Anonymous Letter
    Two notes about this post:
    1. I don't presume to speak for my son, but he's no dummy.
    2. This was supposed to be short enough to print several copies, so I could "drop" a few in strategic locations around a nearby college campus. But you know me! Some days I just can't shut up. My husband thanks you in advance for your sympathy.

    ******************************** ******************************** *******


    A letter to a future daughter-in-law, possibly my own:

    A few years from now, you’re probably going to want to marry my son. Perhaps you already do; he’s kind of hot and his potential is quite obvious, if I do say so myself. He’s only 20, handsome and well-built, and when he lets his hair grow long, it’s thick and wavy. He has his father’s beautiful eyes, and my dimples look much better on him than they ever did on me. He’s also a U.S. Marine; he has finished his deployment and doesn’t expect to go overseas again, so he’s preparing to begin earning college credits. I don’t hover, so I’m not sure which major he’s chosen – engineering or actuarial science. He surfs, rides a motorcycle and a mountain bike, hikes, and maintains a classic car. Pretty much everybody likes him or loves him, and respects him. Girls hit on him regularly.

    I’ll be surprised if he ever marries though. You see, his plan is to wait until he’s at least thirty, therefore he will spend the next decade meeting, dating, working with, and probably sleeping with, the product of 60 years of American feminism. I’m pretty sure he won’t find many women worth considering for marriage. How about we look at it from his perspective, m’kay? Here’s what he sees:

    Half of you have been raised without your fathers, yet only a few of your fathers deserved to be kicked out of your lives; you were raised by the women who kicked your fathers out, and perhaps a string of stepdads and “uncles.” And those women, your mothers, taught you their values by example. Not an auspicious start. Most of the rest of you were raised by fathers who knew damn well that if they displeased your mothers, they too could be kicked out of your lives according to your mothers’ whims. They knew full well who had the REAL power in the family; they quietly accepted that “mother knows best.”

    You were raised in a culture that permits, even encourages, women and girls to always push for more. Not necessarily to do more or earn more, but to demand more and to expect more. You were punished far less severely for your transgressions than were your male peers. Indeed your female peers egged you on to be even naughtier, and to be defiant about it. It’s Grrrl Power, after all! The boys of your acquaintance were expected to give in to your shenanigans and your **** tests, and those who didn’t were labeled “problem children” and medicated. A boy’s best bet was to shut up and grovel, and maybe win your approval. They sure weren’t allowed to go around offending the Special Snowflakes now, were they?

    You were raised in a Disney Princess Culture, where every girl is entitled to her Prince Charming. And if she can’t find one, she has the Grrrl Power to kiss any old frog and transform him into a Prince. You were raised to be a slut, at least through your twenties. Go to College. Establish a Career. Don’t get married until your late twenties or early thirties, but DO NOT, under any circumstances, repress your sexuality. Your foremothers fought hard for your right to be promiscuous with no consequences; don’t you dare let their efforts go to waste. And since you’re not looking for a husband, there’s no need to sleep with only “good” men, is there? ‘Cuz badboyz are hawt! And nice guys are boring. Additionally, you have plenty of time to ride the best cocks you can find; thanks to modern medicine, you can get pregnant after menopause if you want, so there’s no hurry. You are expected to waste your youth and your beauty on hot guys who treat you like ****, then give your leftovers to the guy you’ll promise to love, honor and cherish for the rest of your life. Wow, how lucky is he!

    My son looks around and he sees *****y, arrogant, malicious women. He sees spoiled greedy women. He sees financially irresponsible women. He sees lazy undisciplined women. (Yes, even in the military; they had to lower the standards so more women could “serve.”) He sees overweight women wearing unflattering clothes that display muffin tops and rolls of fat, who drool over his biceps while telling him that “looks aren’t important.” He sees slutty women who dress to attract men, sleep with the “hot” ones, and denigrate the rest by calling them “creepy.” He sees “competitive” professional women, whose primary tool for getting ahead is the threat of sexual harassment lawsuits. He sees demanding women who expect men to bow and scrape for the privilege of a smile. He sees utterly irrational women whose “self-esteem ” is obscenely disproportionate to their proven worth. He sees women who expect romantic dates and expensive gifts, yet have absolutely nothing of value to contribute to a relationship. He sees women who flirt with their hopeful, geeky JustFriends, barely enough to keep them on a string while simultaneously panting after Alpha Hotties, then run crying back to those JustFriends after being pumped and dumped by said Hotties, “Oh, why can’t more men be nice like you?” (Answer: if they were, no woman would **** them.)
    Look around you ladies. You see the very same women, don’t you? Most of you are these women. You think this is normal and acceptable, because “everybody does it.” It’s not.
    There’s something you should know about my son and his peers. They’re not gay, they’re not lazy, they’re not stupid, they’re not unambitious, and they’re not weak. They’ve merely figured you out. They know you don’t give a rat’s ass about them, and you see them as nothing but providers and fantasy sex objects. They are wise to the game and they’re done playing by your rules.

    They have the same job titles as you and they take home the same pay, but they work longer hours and they do harder work; they know that their productivity is why employers can afford to hire you to sit at a desk and shuffle papers. They know that if two drunken people have sex and both regret it in the morning, only one of them is a “rapist.” They know that “My Body/My Choice” actually means"My Body/My Choice/Your Wallet." They know that the minute they sign a marriage license, everything they own is yours, but nothing you own is theirs (except your debts) and you can walk away with cash and prizes, at any time, for any reason. Or for no reason at all.

    They’re calling Bull****.

    A few years from now, you’ll begin asking yourself, “Where have all the good men gone?” You’ll look down your noses at all those guys playing video games and living like frat boys in cheap apartments, and you’ll know that they could do “so much better” for themselves. You’ll shake your heads in wonder at their “immaturity,” or their “wasted potential.” Here’s a little secret. (Yep. A few men are immature and weak – they’ve had the masculinity abused or medicated out of them by their single mothers and grandmothers) but most of them?

    They no longer give a rat’s ass about YOU.

    That’s right. They don’t need to work hard and earn a good living. They have no intention of fathering and supporting any children, and no desire whatsoever earn your approval. You go buy your own four bedroom colonial in just the right subdivision! That’s what Grrrl Power is for, isn’t it? Many of these men will go so far as to quit their jobs as soon as they begin to “earn a good living.” They don’t want to earn enough money to pay taxes. They don’t want to pay the salaries of millions of useless (and mostly female) government employees, and they don’t want to pay for the personal choices of “Empowered Women.” They refuse to feed your Beast. And you, and your church, and your government can’t cajole them or shame them into giving a ****. Men are dropping out, Ladies. Chivalry has died of blunt force trauma, in a beatdown administered by Grrrl Power. Your mothers, your grandmothers, your schools, your family courts, your sociology professors, have all spent the last two generations telling men that they are unnecessary and unwelcome. And now they’re leaving. (Oh sure, they’ll be glad to **** you while you’re young and hot, aaaand then they’ll move on to younger and hotter sluts.)

    This is the gift that feminism has given to you – Independence. Scary, lonely, bitter, potentially impoverished Independence. For yourselves and for any children you may have. Most of you won’t blame feminism though; you’ll blame Male Privilege (which doesn’t exist.) You’ll blame The Patriarchy (which always gave women a far better deal than it gave men.) You will stamp your feet, flip your hair, and blame anything except the single cultural force that has devoted itself to suppressing and controlling masculinity. And you’ll go home alone every night to your cats, your Facebook Friends, and your vibrator. I sure hope that’s what you want.

    Sincerely,
    A Mom
    I do agree !
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    (Original post by Evangelica)
    Lol this is a lesson to you not to jump into people's conversations thinking you understand what they're talking about because you obviously have no clue what I was saying :lol: I'm not complaining about 'the way things were', someone said that the writer couldn't possibly be a modern woman, and I simply replied that there are still women today who have mentalities of the past. Understand?

    I'm not trying to be patronising, it's just that everything you seem to be arguing against is nothing I've said, so it's all a bit of a fruitless exchange.
    ]

    There's nothing to understand really. All you did was give a piece of anecdotal evidence about how some women think. It really does nothing to prove the age or gender of the writer in question.

    I, on the other hand, was merely stating that I also disapproved of people who think so archaically, although it seems for different reasons to you. Citing the poor social conditions for women 60+ years ago is not proof that any gender equality issues actually exist today.

    (Original post by Evangelica)
    Exactly, which is why I was saying I don't agree with people who think that archaically. :facepalm2:
    Just while we're still on this subject...

    You neglect the concept of free will. Women can do whatever they please, and it's not really fair of you to judge them for it. Especially based on nothing more than the fact that it's a little old-fashioned.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Quoting you from another thread cos these posts kinda tie together to make a point. What we have here is a classic is-ought problem. Even if we accept that the brains of men and women are 'wired' in fundamentally different ways it doesn't mean the result of that is necessarily what should be. The system that has emerged over the course of history essentially rewards masculinity. All the traits that make a person successful in a capitalist system are traditionally masculine traits such as ruthlessness, competitiveness and greed. Traditionally feminine traits, such as empathy and co-operative problem solving, have no place in it. As a result, the feminine and the poor (who are seen as failures) are effectively locked out of power. This is what feminists mean by 'patriarchy'. It's a system that doesn't necessarily elevate men, but masculinity, and it serves those at the top. It's not surprising women lack interest in politics when you think about who the system primarily benefits.
    There are, in fact, employment sectors in which those so-called "feminine traits" are beneficial. Such as jobs in Health and Social Care, for example.

    The so-called feminine traits in a leader is interesting. Perhaps a pioneer is required to show that masculinity is not required to be an effective leader? Although any person of the feminine persuasion who desires such an opportunity, but decides not to and declares himself/herself a poor fit for the "system" clearly isn't the pioneer we're looking for.

    Although, having said that, I'm not looking at all. Just musing, really.
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    Is OP trying to start a discussion or is this just another of those threads designed to undermine feminism? There's been enough of them recently :unimpressed:
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Is OP trying to start a discussion or is this just another of those threads designed to undermine feminism? There's been enough of them recently :unimpressed:
    See here.
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    (Original post by Dark Horse)
    ]

    Just while we're still on this subject...

    You neglect the concept of free will. Women can do whatever they please, and it's not really fair of you to judge them for it. Especially based on nothing more than the fact that it's a little old-fashioned.
    Nope, it's based on the fact that it's sexist, and I haven't said that they're not entitled to think that way, only that if they do, I don't agree with their views. Again understand that I'm not talking about a preference to be a stay at home mother - if that's what you want to do, that's wonderful. I'm talking about people thinking that all women are inferior outside of the household. Is this what you believe? If not, I really don't know why you're bothering me.

    Also free will is a silly thing to reference. Firstly, not only did I never state that the women in question were not allowed to think this way. Secondly, if I murdered you, that would be exercising free will but it doesn't make it right, does it? Laws override free will and sexist discrimination is prohibited by law.
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    (Original post by Evangelica)
    Nope, it's based on the fact that it's sexist, and I haven't said that they're not entitled to think that way, only that if they do, I don't agree with their views. Again understand that I'm not talking about a preference to be a stay at home mother - if that's what you want to do, that's wonderful. I'm talking about people thinking that all women are inferior outside of the household. Is this what you believe? If not, I really don't know why you're bothering me.

    Also free will is a silly thing to reference. Firstly, not only did I never state that the women in question were allowed to think this way. Secondly, if I murdered you, that would be exercising free will but it doesn't make it right, does it? Laws override free will and sexist discrimination is prohibited by law.
    In regards to people thinking women are inferior outside the kitchen - no one in the thread actually said this.

    You saying things like this...

    Oh, you'd be surprised at how often I've heard such tripe coming from a woman. The women I hear it from, however, still believe a woman's place is in the kitchen etc.
    ...is typical anecdotal nonsense that brings nothing to debates. And plus, notice how you're now wording your original statement a little less harshly now that you've been called out on it.

    Also, trying to compare a life as a stay at home mother to murdering someone (a criminal offence with severe legal consequences) as a rationale that free will doesn't exist is also rather silly. Not least because you brought sexual discrimination law into the fray, which our hypothetical stay at home mother has not infringed upon.
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    (Original post by Hal.E.Lujah)
    Im glad you liked it, I thought it describes you best because you're not very nice :nope:

    The entire letter reveals a serious complex, if you had posted it legitimately as your own views without this cloak I might have engaged with your views, because Im always open minded. The fact that you felt the need to hide however tells me you're not confident in your own views, and would not be willing to discuss them (because that would require dropping the letter). You chose to post this letter so that people wouldn't attack your stand, but someone else's.

    If you post a new thread asking if women might be happier at home, second class to guys like you, and questioning why they should have a right to reject you, I might reply again and discuss your points. But I'm done for now, this thread is pointless and embarrassing.
    Erm... Dark House did NOT write the letter in his OP - did you not click the link?
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    (Original post by Spontogical)
    Erm... Dark House did NOT write the letter in his OP - did you not click the link?
    He does appear to agree with its sentiment, though. I don't think the person you quoted said that DH wrote the original letter.
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    (Original post by ChocoCoatedLemons)
    Feminist: One who supports the right of women to have equal legal and social rights as men.

    Anyone who is not then technically a feminist, I want nothing to do with. If you're not a feminist, then you're against equality. That is "them v us". Look to the definition, not the sterotype.

    Actually, the "concerned mother" just appears to be full of herself. And who said anything about political correctness?

    That is incorrect. Since that is the claim, it needs evidence to back it up. That's how debates work. I would not claim that my cat can speak and expect you to hav to come up with the evidence that he can't.

    You make the claim, you provide the proof.
    :facepalm: what a load of ****ing ****. Also you spelt stereotype wrong
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    (Original post by Robbie242)
    :facepalm: what a load of ****ing ****. Also you spelt stereotype wrong
    Actually, she hit the nail on the head. Did you read any of the rest of the post?
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Actually, she hit the nail on the head. Did you read any of the rest of the post?
    Equal legal and social rights as men. The definition no longer is strong, its a very weak out-dated definition that needs to be updated to ''A bunch of women that expect more rights to them, whilst not tackling any problems surrounding male inequality''

    Tell me that the movement is effective in modern society, divorce rights are more inclined to favour women, domestic violence and rape are also key issues for males, but no its not being tackled at all, instead the double standards still exist, whilst you still demand more in favour of women's rights, why can't you fight for equality, ditch feminism as a term or re-brand it, because its current definition is full of ****.

    Well disregard the facts then since that's your aim as feminist, to avoid any conscience of recognition societal issues facing men in present day.
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    (Original post by Robbie242)
    Equal legal and social rights as men. The definition no longer is strong, its a very weak out-dated definition that needs to be updated to ''A bunch of women that expect more rights to them, whilst not tackling any problems surrounding male inequality''

    Tell me that the movement is effective in modern society, divorce rights are more inclined to favour women, domestic violence and rape are also key issues for males, but no its not being tackled at all, instead the double standards still exist, whilst you still demand more in favour of women's rights, why can't you fight for equality, ditch feminism as a term or re-brand it, because its current definition is full of ****.
    Have a read of this, I think it answers some of your issues pretty well: http://jezebel.com/5992479/if-i-admi...lling-prophecy
 
 
 
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