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    (Original post by Qwertish)
    That doesn't make them socialist... Technically, they were fascist.
    Fascism is a branch of socialism. I don't know how you can argue it's not, they were called the national SOCIALISTS.
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    (Original post by Echofoursix)
    Fascism is a branch of socialism. I don't know how you can argue it's not, they were called the national SOCIALISTS.
    Lol, nice logic. Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democracy?
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    (Original post by Qwertish)
    Yep, but science and maths teach logical problem solving skills that will be required in the work place.

    I'm just trying to show all the arguments that can be put forward to say why Science and Maths should be optional can also be applied to English. All three should remain compulsory.
    At no stage did I say that these subjects should cease to be compulsory post-KS3, I simply suggested that there should be two strands to both of them providing for a general education and a specific education. Anyway, this is getting rather tedious.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    Lol, nice logic. Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democracy?
    Democratic doesn't necessarily imply a democracy, js. Democratic can also mean popular as in a popular movement, as in for the people. I'm sure plenty of people in the North Korean government believe they're governing for the people's own good. Nice argument.

    I honestly don't know how people can't see that the Nazis were socialist. It's always the stereotypical student socialists, desperately attempting historical revisionism. "Oh, but they weren't real socialists!" etc.

    The Nazis were a working class, proletarian, revolutionary movement that sought to impose state control of the economy. They rejected democracy (like every other socialist state in history) and were just as hostile to capitalism as Lenin himself.

    They were socialists.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    At no stage did I say that these subjects should cease to be compulsory post-KS3, I simply suggested that there should be two strands to both of them providing for a general education and a specific education. Anyway, this is getting rather tedious.
    I'm saying you have to treat all three in the same way. Science and Maths are no more relevant than English, and vice versa. Yes, it is. I think we've proven they're both as useful/useless as each other.
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    (Original post by Echofoursix)
    Democratic doesn't necessarily imply a democracy, js. Democratic can also mean popular as in a popular movement, as in for the people. I'm sure plenty of people in the North Korean government believe they're governing for the people's own good. Nice argument.

    I honestly don't know how people can't see that the Nazis were socialist. It's always the stereotypical student socialists, desperately attempting historical revisionism. "Oh, but they weren't real socialists!" etc.

    The Nazis were a working class, proletarian, revolutionary movement that sought to impose state control of the economy. They rejected democracy (like every other socialist state in history) and were just as hostile to capitalism as Lenin himself.

    They were socialists.
    But that's communism. Not socialism. A proletariat revolutionary movement that rejects bourgeois democracy is pretty much the definition of communist. I think we can all agree that the Nazis were most certainly not communist.

    As an aside, you realise the UK operates under moderate socialism right now, don't you? What with our free public healthcare and welfare system... The US is pretty much the only major power remaining which is wholly capitalist.
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    (Original post by Qwertish)
    I'm saying you have to treat all three in the same way. Science and Maths are no more relevant than English, and vice versa. Yes, it is. I think we've proven they're both as useful/useless as each other.
    We've also proven that scientists and humanities students never agree on what's useful in the world. Interestingly, I was sat on a train earlier watching the reflection of one set of windows onto another, because of an internal window there was light refraction causing the Newtonian prism effect in the reflection. It was quite neat but that's the extent of the impact of my science teaching at school.

    I can see what you're say, I simply don't agree with it. Then again, I don't agree with the right-wing stance on education at all. It's far too governed by money and statistics for it to be worth anything much. What's that old phrase about knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing; to me that sums up how right-wingers approach education.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    We've also proven that scientists and humanities students never agree on what's useful in the world. Interestingly, I was sat on a train earlier watching the reflection of one set of windows onto another, because of an internal window there was light refraction causing the Newtonian prism effect in the reflection. It was quite neat but that's the extent of the impact of my science teaching at school.

    I can see what you're say, I simply don't agree with it. Then again, I don't agree with the right-wing stance on education at all. It's far too governed by money and statistics for it to be worth anything much. What's that old phrase about knowing the price of everything but the value of nothing; to me that sums up how right-wingers approach education.
    Yes, I think that that fact is case enough to treat both fields with the same level of respect. As a final juxtaposition, I finished reading the Lord of the Rings the other day, and was very amused to find the rather blatant anti-communist subtext in the final chapter :lol:.

    I don't feel I have a particularly right wing stance on education. I loathe Michael Gove and everything he does (something really must be done about him). There is, however, an interesting point to make about our education system: many countries have systems based heavily on ours (India, Singapore); yet their education standards are much higher than our own. That tells me the problem lies not in the education system, but in the attitudes towards eduction.
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    In what way does India have a higher standard of education than us?
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    (Original post by Qwertish)
    Yes, I think that that fact is case enough to treat both fields with the same level of respect. As a final juxtaposition, I finished reading the Lord of the Rings the other day, and was very amused to find the rather blatant anti-communist subtext in the final chapter :lol:.
    I don't think it's a lack of respect that suggests we might develop a general and a specialised strand in science education beyond KS3, if anything it suggests that it's better people don't leave school thinking science and maths is a waste of time by providing them with an education that is applicable to their lives. That's all I'm trying to get at. You can't really do that with English because, well, once you learn to read and write it ceases to be about the basics. It then becomes an analytical subject. Anyway.

    The Lord of the Rings isn't at all about anti-communism - Tolkien explicitly rejected that reading of his work declaring "I utterly repudiate any such 'reading', which angers me. The situation was conceived long before the Russian revolution. Such allegory is entirely foreign to my thought" - it's more a parable about the competing forces in Britain and the powerful force that a pastoral anti-modernism plays in the English psyche in particular. The shire is the quiet country village that seems to define England for so many people.

    I don't feel I have a particularly right wing stance on education. I loathe Michael Gove and everything he does (something really must be done about him). There is, however, an interesting point to make about our education system: many countries have systems based heavily on ours (India, Singapore); yet their education standards are much higher than our own. That tells me the problem lies not in the education system, but in the attitudes towards eduction.
    Oh, if you want to apportion blame for poor attitudes towards education ... I can give you a whole heap of history books that place it squarely at the door of the Stupid Party.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    The Lord of the Rings isn't at all about anti-communism - Tolkien explicitly rejected that reading of his work declaring "I utterly repudiate any such 'reading', which angers me. The situation was conceived long before the Russian revolution. Such allegory is entirely foreign to my thought" - it's more a parable about the competing forces in Britain and the powerful force that a pastoral anti-modernism plays in the English psyche in particular. The shire is the quiet country village that seems to define England for so many people.

    Oh, if you want to apportion blame for poor attitudes towards education ... I can give you a whole heap of history books that place it squarely at the door of the Stupid Party.
    No no, it's not all anti communist but if this isn't anti communist, I don't know what is:
    (Original post by LotR RotK Book 2 Chapter 8)
    … hide a bit of one's own when the ruffians went around gathering stuff up “for fair distribution”: which meant they got it and we didn't …
    I'm not going to apportion any blame. It's pointless, and I don't know enough history anyway. Regardless, the fact is that attitudes towards eduction need to be improved. I've got no idea how to do this though.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    Lol, nice logic. Is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea a democracy?
    And i'm Richard Nixon
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    (Original post by Qwertish)
    No no, it's not all anti communist but if this isn't anti communist, I don't know what is.
    It's not anti-communist! Don't forget that Tolkien was an Anglo-Saxon scholar with a sense of the way of life of that period. It really is a misreading of the books to draw any anti-communist sentiment out of it.

    I'm not going to apportion any blame. It's pointless, and I don't know enough history anyway. Regardless, the fact is that attitudes towards eduction need to be improved. I've got no idea how to do this though.
    Oh, it's relatively straight forward, you have to make education mean something again.
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    (Original post by obi_adorno_kenobi)
    It's not anti-communist! Don't forget that Tolkien was an Anglo-Saxon scholar with a sense of the way of life of that period. It really is a misreading of the books to draw any anti-communist sentiment out of it.



    Oh, it's relatively straight forward, you have to make education mean something again.
    All I'm saying is he shows hobbits as being rather skeptical of redistribution :rolleyes:

    Yes, I know that. The problem is how
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    (Original post by Qwertish)
    All I'm saying is he shows hobbits as being rather skeptical of redistribution :rolleyes:
    Feudalism. That's what Tolkien is talking about. Replacing Anglo-Saxon (hobbit) patterns of ownership with Norman ones. From a freer system of common ownership and common law to feus in which wealth is redistributed upwards in the name of progress. Roll your eyes and use smilies all you likr but Tolkien's work is very particularly grounded away from the twentietch century.
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    Does the Department of Education agree with the active criminalisation of Young People in the UK for possession of Class B and A drugs?
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    (Original post by Jim-ie)
    Does the Department of Education agree with the active criminalisation of Young People in the UK for possession of Class B and A drugs?
    Well, the MHoC has legalised all narcotics (with certain regulations on age etc.) This means that it would be illegal for those under 18 to be sold drugs, which means that they could potentially, if found with drugs, be questioned by police in order to find the dealer who was supplying underage kids, but it'd basically be like underage drinking.

    There is legislation being brought before the house by the Socialist party which seeks to recriminalise sale of a swathe of drugs, but the government, or at least the Libertarian party members in it, who include the education secretary, tend to oppose the idea.
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    (Original post by chrisawhitmore)
    Well, the MHoC has legalised all narcotics (with certain regulations on age etc.) This means that it would be illegal for those under 18 to be sold drugs, which means that they could potentially, if found with drugs, be questioned by police in order to find the dealer who was supplying underage kids, but it'd basically be like underage drinking.

    There is legislation being brought before the house by the Socialist party which seeks to recriminalise a swathe of drugs, but the government tends to oppose the idea.
    More government ministers have commented supporting stricter drug prohibition, actually. And the Socialist Party's bill doesn't seek to recriminalise the possession of any drugs.
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    (Original post by JPKC)
    More government ministers have commented supporting stricter drug prohibition, actually. And the Socialist Party's bill doesn't seek to recriminalise the possession of any drugs.
    Yeah, should have made the distinction clearer, will edit.

    Also, as far as government ministers go, it's certainly not true that more have expressed the desire for stricter controls. Remember, Mac and I are both ministers (He's the Chancellor and I got Health)
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    (Original post by chrisawhitmore)
    Yeah, should have made the distinction clearer, will edit.

    Also, as far as government ministers go, it's certainly not true that more have expressed the desire for stricter controls. Remember, Mac and I are both ministers (He's the Chancellor and I got Health)
    Rakas, Qwertish, and TNP have each expressed a desire for tighter controls, and I'm guessing that they're not alone. At the very least it's an even split.
 
 
 
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