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A ban on female members at Muirfield Golf Club in 2013? Why!?! watch

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Well, it's surfaced now.

    Grown adults can make decisions, but in this case, as they exclude women, they can't be involved in the decision-making, can they.

    These things matter for their totemic value - if F1 tried to exclude women from Silverstone, or Horse Racing from Goodwood, there would be outrage. It's the same for any major sporting club or venue. Of course, there are valid exceptions, but it's hard to see how golf is one of them.
    The way you belittle folk just because they make a decision you disagree with is exceptionally irritating.

    Anyway, you are not comparing like for like. Your comparisons are, in fact, awful.
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    Pressure's fine, but I think legislating that private individuals and/or organisations have to do business with people they don't want to do business with is wrong.
    I would rather the rules are gone through pressure to be fair. I'm not sure if the politicians will let it slide though, especially Harman.
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    (Original post by CelticSymphony67)
    I would rather the rules are gone through pressure to be fair. I'm not sure if the politicians will let it slide though, especially Harman.
    Yes, but pressure from within the game (sponsors, players, existing club members, etc), not externally to it.
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    (Original post by CelticSymphony67)
    I would rather the rules are gone through pressure to be fair. I'm not sure if the politicians will let it slide though, especially Harman.
    The coalition can easily point at her and ask why she didn't implement it in her time as deputy boss of the country, equalities minister or women's minister. I don't think it'll be effective in painting the government as sexist, which is what she is trying to do. She deliberately left that 'loophole' (or valid exception, as most people would see it) because it would be impossible to legislate on exactly the instances they want to target without hurting other establishments, and that's assuming the public agrees that Muirfield should allow female members, which is definitely not unanimous.
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    Regarding the argument that women-only clubs exist, this is primarily in response to the male-only clubs; women wanted somewhere to play in areas where they otherwise couldn't. It's a reactionary thing.

    There's an interview where a representative of the R&A unsuccessfully tries to justify it, including him claiming that comparisons to white-only clubs were 'absurd', essentially because women aren't treated as 2nd class citizens whereas ethnic minorities might have been in the past. In fact, male-only clubs were set up at a time when - and because - women were treated as inferior; the history is the same as that of racial discrimination. Maintaining this practice is prolonging this discriminatory and offensive ideology.

    As with other examples of historical discrimination which continue today because of 'traditions', it seems that while racial discrimination of any kind is seen as outrageous, gender discrimination and casual sexism are apparently 'no big deal'.
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    (Original post by akj08)
    Regarding the argument that women-only clubs exist, this is primarily in response to the male-only clubs; women wanted somewhere to play in areas where they otherwise couldn't. It's a reactionary thing.

    There's an interview where a representative of the R&A unsuccessfully tries to justify it, including him claiming that comparisons to white-only clubs were 'absurd', essentially because women aren't treated as 2nd class citizens whereas ethnic minorities might have been in the past. In fact, male-only clubs were set up at a time when - and because - women were treated as inferior; the history is the same as that of racial discrimination. Maintaining this practice is prolonging this discriminatory and offensive ideology.

    As with other examples of historical discrimination which continue today because of 'traditions', it seems that while racial discrimination of any kind is seen as outrageous, gender discrimination and casual sexism are apparently 'no big deal'.
    So if I want to pay to join a club where I can play a sport in the company of my male friends and relax afterwards in the company of my male friends, I'm sexist?

    Wanting time away from women and wanting to be separate from black people, for example, are two very different things.
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    (Original post by akj08)
    Regarding the argument that women-only clubs exist, this is primarily in response to the male-only clubs; women wanted somewhere to play in areas where they otherwise couldn't. It's a reactionary thing.
    Women could play in/at mixed gender clubs, no reason to perpetuate what you think is wrong but in the other direction.

    There's an interview where a representative of the R&A unsuccessfully tries to justify it, including him claiming that comparisons to white-only clubs were 'absurd', essentially because women aren't treated as 2nd class citizens whereas ethnic minorities might have been in the past. In fact, male-only clubs were set up at a time when - and because - women were treated as inferior; the history is the same as that of racial discrimination. Maintaining this practice is prolonging this discriminatory and offensive ideology.

    As with other examples of historical discrimination which continue today because of 'traditions', it seems that while racial discrimination of any kind is seen as outrageous, gender discrimination and casual sexism are apparently 'no big deal'.
    It's pretty obvious that racial discrimination has had worse effects than sexual discrimination, no? A boy and a girl will each have a parent of each gender, so any sexual disadvantage one faces will be due to events after their birth. Compare a white child and a black child, generally will have parents of the same skin colour, and hence any racial disadvantage one faces will not only be due to events after their birth, but will also be due to accumulated discrimination over the previous generations.
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    (Original post by CelticSymphony67)
    So I don't listen to them? I stopped listening to them in 2003 when they illegally invaded Iraq. Does that mean that I'm prejudiced against all Americans? No, and I'm certainly not racist. I don't listen to a lot of people, creed, colour, race and nationality never comes into it. Have a lot of time for Bill Clinton though, he's American.
    "I'm not racist, one of my friends is black"
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    (Original post by rockrunride)
    Newnham College, Cambridge. Various carriages of Tokyo Metro trains. Not really seeing a problem..
    This was a result of sexual harassment and assaults experienced by females, so to prevent it hence, the women only carriages. It is not like men cannot go on the Metro lines at all! Just not a couple of carriages and a response to a problem.

    Not because, they just feel like it. (Do not know all the details, but seems so in this case).
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    (Original post by CelticSymphony67)
    The problem is simple. Not allowing ladies membership at a golf club is sexist. Unless they can come out with a proper reason why they have it, then it should be outlawed. There really is no need for it, it is Great Britain, not Saudi Arabia.
    But why? Why force them to accept women when the women won't be welcome? You can't change attitudes through legislation; this only entrenches resentment further.
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    I don't mind it being banned but then you also have to ban women's only gyms or gyms having certain hours where no men are allowed in.
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    Gender-specific courses are few and far between, half of them women-only. It's not a problem. While we're at it, shall we merge the tournament with the Ladies' Open? Blatant segregation!
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    (Original post by akj08)
    Regarding the argument that women-only clubs exist, this is primarily in response to the male-only clubs; women wanted somewhere to play in areas where they otherwise couldn't. It's a reactionary thing.

    There's an interview where a representative of the R&A unsuccessfully tries to justify it, including him claiming that comparisons to white-only clubs were 'absurd', essentially because women aren't treated as 2nd class citizens whereas ethnic minorities might have been in the past. In fact, male-only clubs were set up at a time when - and because - women were treated as inferior; the history is the same as that of racial discrimination. Maintaining this practice is prolonging this discriminatory and offensive ideology.

    As with other examples of historical discrimination which continue today because of 'traditions', it seems that while racial discrimination of any kind is seen as outrageous, gender discrimination and casual sexism are apparently 'no big deal'.
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    Sick of the pervading idea that racism is horrific and should be fought against but feminists (ie women who recognize that gender inequality is still rife) are seen as aggressors.
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    (Original post by wtfCharlie)
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    Sick of the pervading idea that racism is horrific and should be fought against but feminists (ie women who recognize that gender inequality is still rife) are seen as aggressors.
    See post 87. It's pretty obvious why racism is far worse. Maltreatment accumulates over generations with racism (you can compare to the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer), but sexism is effectively reset each generation - if my mother was oppressed due to being a woman, then I've been hit by that oppression to the same extent that my sister has.
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    See post 87. It's pretty obvious why racism is far worse. Maltreatment accumulates over generations with racism (you can compare to the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer), but sexism is effectively reset each generation - if my mother was oppressed due to being a woman, then I've been hit by that oppression to the same extent that my sister has.
    I didn't say it wasn't worse, just pointed out a common hypocrisy. Although IMO both can improve or get worse as times continue.

    EDIT: note on post 87 - Yes, your genetics are from the past. But essentially, if you're born female OR black, you're going to get treated worse then the opposite. Any kind of minority faces a really crap time.
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    I care a lot about women's rights, and if this is the kind of thing feminists are focusing on, i'll be terribly disappointed.

    I see no problem with the private club stating that members must be male-only. There are deeper problems within society that deserve more attention than a single club.

    I can assume that you would also have to pay for membership too? So to say that all males can join is ridiculous. Perhaps the club is discriminating against the poor too? Yet, nothing is spoken about that. (If there aren't membership fees, then I retract this statement).

    Just let the men have their club, and stop being so politically correct. I'm pretty sure Muirfield doesn't offer the only golf club in the entirety of Scotland.
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    (Original post by wtfCharlie)
    I didn't say it wasn't worse, just pointed out a common hypocrisy. Although IMO both can improve or get worse as times continue.
    No, racism has clearly been worse. A lot worse. The effects still linger today in obvious ways, and there's no real way to correct it. With sexism, we can have equal opportunities, and provided that's the case all throughout life, a boy and a girl will end up where they 'deserve' to be regardless of what previous generations of women have experienced - my mum earning less than my dad hasn't hurt my sister any more than it has hurt me. With racism, we can provide equal opportunities but given that some ethnicities have a worse starting point, they won't be able to capitalise as easily on the opportunities, which harms their career prospects, which in turn puts their kids at a relatively worse starting position and the cycle continues.
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    (Original post by Hopple)
    No, racism has clearly been worse. A lot worse. The effects still linger today in obvious ways, and there's no real way to correct it. With sexism, we can have equal opportunities, and provided that's the case all throughout life, a boy and a girl will end up where they 'deserve' to be regardless of what previous generations of women have experienced - my mum earning less than my dad hasn't hurt my sister any more than it has hurt me. With racism, we can provide equal opportunities but given that some ethnicities have a worse starting point, they won't be able to capitalise as easily on the opportunities, which harms their career prospects, which in turn puts their kids at a relatively worse starting position and the cycle continues.
    In your opinion.

    The effects of sexism also still linger today, in the same way as racism. Equal opportunities do not exist for both genders or races. Boys and girls do NOT end up where they deserve to be regardless of gender - just look at the gender balance in politics and business. Some ethnicities have a worse starting point? So do some genders - female. The cycle continues when little girls fail to see women in positive and strong roles because sexism stops them from getting there.
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    (Original post by The Velour Fog)
    I care a lot about women's rights, and if this is the kind of thing feminists are focusing on, i'll be terribly disappointed.

    I see no problem with the private club stating that members must be male-only. There are deeper problems within society that deserve more attention than a single club.

    I can assume that you would also have to pay for membership too? So to say that all males can join is ridiculous. Perhaps the club is discriminating against the poor too? Yet, nothing is spoken about that. (If there aren't membership fees, then I retract this statement).

    Just let the men have their club, and stop being so politically correct. I'm pretty sure Muirfield doesn't offer the only golf club in the entirety of Scotland.
    If you care a lot about women's rights, you kinda are a feminist heh.

    No, the problem doesn't seem massive, but I the point is that in 2013, it is outdated and sexist. Thankfully, the UK has come a long way and therefore our problems are 'smaller' than in other countries.
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    (Original post by Idle)
    I don't mind it being banned but then you also have to ban women's only gyms or gyms having certain hours where no men are allowed in.
    It's a fair point but those were started because a lot of women feel genuinely uncomfortable at mixed gyms - guys take the opportunity to make comments or come onto them. I've always thought this is somewhat unfair - maybe men don't want to be looked at by women either if self-conscious? But overall, society is way more critical of women's bodies than men's so it kind of makes sense. That ban is about feeling comfortable and not harassed, the golf one is about elitism and exclusivity. Both discriminatory, but some context should be considered.
 
 
 
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