is gender a social construct? Watch

Poll: gender, what is with that stuff?
i am a man and i think it is 100% social construct (5)
3.55%
i am a man and i think it is 100% nature (28)
19.86%
i am a man and i think it is mostly social construct (18)
12.77%
i am a man and i think it is mostly nature (33)
23.4%
i am a woman and i think it is 100% social construct (9)
6.38%
i am a woman and i think it is 100% nature (7)
4.96%
i am a woman and i think it is mostly social construct (22)
15.6%
i am a woman and i think it is mostly nature (19)
13.48%
rad_student
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(Original post by thoyub)
I'm surprised you wouldn't know.. When I say act like men, I mean doing things that men would traditionally do. Getting into fights, punch ups, getting broken noses etc. Swearing excessively in every sentence, exposing themselves. Hurling abuse at people.
Obviously I don't mean all women but in general, they have taken on masculine qualities and it's now socially acceptable for women to do those things.
I'm not trying to be sexist at all but it's just a fact of life and what the world is like today.
Wow, what a negative stereotype you have of what men act like, on IMD - that's a social construct.

I think its mostly nature, but recent changes in (predominantly Western) society has altered what has been true for millenia. Below will be some social reconstruction & the majority evolution.
(From my Development of Gender essay!)
(Original post by Watch Key Phone)
Studies have also proven that people will act differently towards newborn babies based on whether they are told the babies are male or female. You don't think that social conditioning has an affect from birth?
(Smith and Lloyd (1978) was 1 study) It does play a role, as children identify themselves as girls or boys, this affects brain development & habits, acceptance forms.
Sweden is experimenting with removing s/he, to be a gender neutral society.

Imaging studies (EEG/PET/fMRI): women use both brain hemispheres, having stronger interconnections between emotional intelligence & communication skills; men are left-brain dominant. A larger, deep limbic system than men mean women are better connected to their feelings and articulating their emotions (Shaywitz et al., 1995 cited by Sandberg, 2012). Men & women can be naturally aggressive but their method of expression is different, depending on the biological brain’s sex. Gender behaviour is learnt from an early age rather than being inborn.
http://www.latimes.com/news/science/...#axzz2l8qfGRrh - informative.
===

Buss (1989) tested human mating preferences (6 continents, 10,047 participants) & 36 of 37 countries females preferred “good financial prospect” in a mate higher than males; supporting the evolution hypothesis that females look for males as a provider. All 37 countries males preferred younger females by 3.42 years, whilst females wanted older males by 2.66 years; unit-weighted average for actual age differences were 2.99 years. The mean average of the ideal difference was 3.04, highlighting that both are marrying at the ideal age gap.
Empirically this strengthens evolution theory with the female looking for a provider. This goes back to women investing more time and physical energy on their offspring so need a proven track record that the men can provide or/and protect them when vulnerable. 400 Swedish newspaper and internet dating service advertisements = men wanted younger women and offered resources to attract them; women wanted older (true until menopausal age), more resource-laden men (Johnsson, 2008). Humans worldwide are intrinsically the same, defined by their genetics, looking to increase their chance of successfully surviving and/or breeding.
Do men get described or act hypergamously in comparison? It is an important trait (especially when no words/vocab were created), just like women's less desire for sex - so that their child(ren) can be cared for, rather than focus on obtaining more sex.

So partially social construct. I have a lot more info, all cited!
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Raiden10
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(Original post by rad_student)


Imaging studies (EEG/PET/fMRI): women use both brain hemispheres, having stronger interconnections between emotional intelligence & communication skills; men are left-brain dominant. A larger, deep limbic system than men mean women are better connected to their feelings and articulating their emotions (Shaywitz et al., 1995 cited by Sandberg, 2012).
People are not left-brained or right-brained in reality. That's just popular psychology blurb. It's pretty much debunked that people have a globally dominant hemisphere. The pattern of brain lateralisation for specific tasks differs between individuals, and within these individuals the patterns seem to be independent of one another. What that means is that some task may display a certain pattern of lateralisation, but it has little apparent bearing on how this happens for other tasks.

I had also never heard the limbic system was bigger in females.

But yeah this sort of thing kind of sums up popular psychology (and even some proper psychology), it's like they are running a 100m race and after reaching 10 metres they decide to dive for the finish line.
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AdamskiUK
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If it has a penis, it's a man.
If it has a vagina, it's a woman.

These are typical norms we can draw from our everyday, intrinsic ideals. Of course, we as a species alter our perceptions on these issues over time, but at the end of the day, 'gender' should be used within context.

The definitions above are how nature defines us. We can choose to change that and some people are born straight into a category that fits into neither, but their 'gender' isn't made by a societal decision. They are still natural beings, just not quite right genetically. Before people say 'define right', I will tell them now that 'right' is the typical standard in a statistical sense. Most people are born with one set of genitals and so we can clump them together. They are 'right' in that sense.

Of course, I'm not saying that people with both are wrong and we should shun them. They just aren't right compared to the rest of us. If I put a black man in a room of white people, he is the odd one out. Should we treat him differently when questioning driving ability because of the colour of his skin? Hell no! He's just not the statistical norm.
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Raiden10
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(Original post by AdamskiUK)
If it has a penis, it's a man.
If it has a vagina, it's a woman.
Remember that in seahorses it is the male who is entered and gives birth. He also raises the children.
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mimi112
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for all the social engineers and their victims:






When offered the choice of playing with either a doll or a toy truck, girls will typically pick the doll and boys will opt for the truck. This isn't just because society encourages girls to be nurturing and boys to be active, as people once thought. In experiments, male adolescent monkeys also prefer to play with wheeled vehicles while the females prefer dolls — and their societies say nothing on the matter.

The monkey research, conducted with two different species in 2002 and 2008, strongly suggested a biological explanation for children's toy preferences.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1827727.html
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mimi112
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again, looks like most men think it's nature and most women society. i wonder if that would change if the poll was done on a much wider sample (age, education etc).
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rad_student
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(Original post by mimi112)
for all the social engineers and their victims:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1827727.html
Ahh, the Norwegian documentary, that abolished Women’s Studies funding!
http://henrylaasanen.puheenvuoro.uus...aistutkimuksen

More from essay: Boys prefer playing with stereotypically masculine toys and girls favour both masculine and feminine toys (Bussey and Perry, 1982; Ruble et al., 2006, cited by Hassett et al., 2008), to exclude social influence factors (adult socialisation or gender schema formation), an experiment involved 34 rhesus male and female monkeys from an 135 monkey troop and a choice of ‘boy and girl toys.’ Like little boys the male monkeys choose to play with the typical masculine toys more frequently and longer; the females played with both toys almost equally. It showed that without social pressures the monkeys were following the same pattern as human children, leading to “the hypothesis that there are hormonally organized[sic] preferences for specific activities that shape preference for toys that facilitate these activities” (Hassett et al., 2008, p.8). They conclude that primates are following their biologically based sex differences with regards to activities, rather than have learnt to prefer one activity over another. Biological

Western world girls wear pink & boys blue. Ghana - unsurprising for boys to wear pink; at Deks Senior High School near Accra, girls wear pink dresses and boys pink shirts for their uniform. Social.

Stress response: Male fight-or-flight response is inherently different from the female tend-and-befriend response. www.personalityresearch.org/papers/mccarthy.html has other research (tl dr). Biological

Another gender assumption perceives men as aggressors, women pacifists & its link to higher testosterone hormone levels in men. New scientific evidence shows it does not cause aggressive & risky behaviour, instead testosterone causes a fairer more sensitive, bargaining behaviour (Eisenegger et al., 2010, pp.356-358). A measure using salivary oestrogen levels before and after women entered a one-on-one dominance contest showed: the higher their need for power the higher their oestrogen levels rose (Stanton and Schultheiss, 2007), oestrogen fuels the female’s need for power and control. In domestic situations Fiebert (2011) has referenced 286 studies, reviews and/or analyses that sampled 371,600 people, “which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners.” It seems to indicate that aggression for both sexes is innate, but through operant conditioning it is encouraged from an early age in boys/men whilst discouraged for girls/women.
Nazi women who were every bit as evil as the men
What do u think mimi, Biological wrapped up in Social? Am I showing bias?
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--
(Original post by Raiden10)
People are not left-brained or right-brained in reality. That's just popular psychology blurb. It's pretty much debunked that people have a globally dominant hemisphere. The pattern of brain lateralisation for specific tasks differs between individuals, and within these individuals the patterns seem to be independent of one another. What that means is that some task may display a certain pattern of lateralisation, but it has little apparent bearing on how this happens for other tasks.

I had also never heard the limbic system was bigger in females.
Do you need proof?

But yeah this sort of thing kind of sums up popular psychology (and even some proper psychology), it's like they are running a 100m race and after reaching 10 metres they decide to dive for the finish line.
Do you have the peer reviewed citations? Is it Nielson et al., 2013, "we saw no differences in functional lateralization with gender"? His team also cite Adelstein et al., 2011 by writing "no significant effects of hemispheric asymmetry with gender, but reported that males tended to be more locally efficient in their right hemispheres and females tended to be more locally efficient in their left hemispheres." I.e. the brain's cerebral cortex do/may not execute different functions, but ... do differ physiologically - Biological.

MRI, PET, SPECT (nuclear medicine) - I'm still learning at Uni, though I have done my placement in CT. I can access the (quantitative) evidence based research, if I have time.

I don't understand your 100m meaning.
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chazwomaq
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Just to reiterate - the original question and options are too vague to be useful. They present a false dichotomy.

To take another example: is language a social construct or is it due to nature?

Well, it's obviously natural because other species don't have language in anything like the same way. People all over the world develop language reliably.

But it's obviously a social construct because the form of the language varies depending on your environment. If someone is brought up without language as a child, they will struggle to learn it as an adult. So society shapes our language.

So it's both. And you can't say "more one than the other" because biology and socialization are not opposing processes. They work together.

Or to take another example: are attitudes to sex a social construct or from nature? Well, men all over the world prefer casual sex more than women do, and tend to rank physical attractiveness as more important than do women, implicating biological differences. But social attitudes for example towards sex outside marriage or one night stands have changed a lot in many societies in a short timescale that must be due to socialization rather than evolution. So both processes work together.
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mimi112
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(Original post by chazwomaq)
Just to reiterate - the original question and options are too vague to be useful. They present a false dichotomy.

To take another example: is language a social construct or is it due to nature?

Well, it's obviously natural because other species don't have language in anything like the same way. People all over the world develop language reliably.

But it's obviously a social construct because the form of the language varies depending on your environment. If someone is brought up without language as a child, they will struggle to learn it as an adult. So society shapes our language.

So it's both. And you can't say "more one than the other" because biology and socialization are not opposing processes. They work together.

Or to take another example: are attitudes to sex a social construct or from nature? Well, men all over the world prefer casual sex more than women do, and tend to rank physical attractiveness as more important than do women, implicating biological differences. But social attitudes for example towards sex outside marriage or one night stands have changed a lot in many societies in a short timescale that must be due to socialization rather than evolution. So both processes work together.
a number of things you could consider:

- the choice of toys
- the inclination towards math or humanities
- the choice of careers
- aggression vs passivity
- dominance vs submissiveness
- the way each gender sees sex and especially casual sex, like you said

even sports i guess, since i've heard some feminists say they'd be as good as the men with enough funding and interest lol


Or to take another example: are attitudes to sex a social construct or from nature? Well, men all over the world prefer casual sex more than women do, and tend to rank physical attractiveness as more important than do women, implicating biological differences. But social attitudes for example towards sex outside marriage or one night stands have changed a lot in many societies in a short timescale that must be due to socialization rather than evolution. So both processes work together.
a very good way to look at this is comparing gay men with lesbians (even though studies on straight men and women from pretty much every single culture have already confirmed it) . the avg number of partners for men is much, much higher compared to the lesbians , along with the sex frequency. that's why men have bathhouses but women don't. or grindr. or or or ....
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mimi112
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(Original post by rad_student)
Ahh, the Norwegian documentary, that abolished Women’s Studies funding!
http://henrylaasanen.puheenvuoro.uus...aistutkimuksen



Another gender assumption perceives men as aggressors, women pacifists & its link to higher testosterone hormone levels in men. New scientific evidence shows it does not cause aggressive & risky behaviour, instead testosterone causes a fairer more sensitive, bargaining behaviour (Eisenegger et al., 2010, pp.356-358). A measure using salivary oestrogen levels before and after women entered a one-on-one dominance contest showed: the higher their need for power the higher their oestrogen levels rose (Stanton and Schultheiss, 2007), oestrogen fuels the female’s need for power and control. In domestic situations Fiebert (2011) has referenced 286 studies, reviews and/or analyses that sampled 371,600 people, “which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners.” It seems to indicate that aggression for both sexes is innate, but through operant conditioning it is encouraged from an early age in boys/men whilst discouraged for girls/women.
Nazi women who were every bit as evil as the men
What do u think mimi, Biological wrapped up in Social? Am I showing bias?
yeah , i mean women initiate domestic violence more than men.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...dy-622388.html

not so sure about this one but you might be right. tough to think it would be close to 100% in any direction. i'll tell you what is a ''social construct'' though : women hitting men without expecting consequences since they know most men will not retaliate. and as a personal example, i grew up in a country with a pretty large gypsy population (talking roma/indian, not white irish or traveler types). they waited for pupils in the schoolyard and hit them or steal from them. the girls would be much braver than the boys in confronting them. why? because even the gypsyies pretty much never hit them. if you were a boy a world of pain would follow.


btw where did you read aboutWomen’s Studies funding being cut because of that doc? that's ****ing awesome!
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rad_student
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(Original post by mimi112)
yeah , i mean women initiate domestic violence more than men.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...dy-622388.html

not so sure about this one but you might be right. tough to think it would be close to 100% in any direction. i'll tell you what is a ''social construct'' though : women hitting men without expecting consequences since they know most men will not retaliate. and as a personal example, i grew up in a country with a pretty large gypsy population (talking roma/indian, not white irish or traveler types). they waited for pupils in the schoolyard and hit them or steal from them. the girls would be much braver than the boys in confronting them. why? because even the gypsyies pretty much never hit them. if you were a boy a world of pain would follow.


btw where did you read aboutWomen’s Studies funding being cut because of that doc? that's ****ing awesome!
Your 2000 link says men make up 40% of the victims forthe cases he looked at, same as in 2012/13 DV stats. Don't forget children don"t have a voice & http://www.youtube.com/user/HumanityBites some more aggresion hidden to fit a social construct, a destructive narrative.

Norway
The link via translator or google some people who wrote about it has already translated it. I've linked to that article & another already someplace. Read other sites comment about the videos & the person who made them, may make more sense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Gender_Institute

PUAs rely on understanding women's biological nature, to make themselves of higher status, resource-laden or something. I don't know too much (http://www.kezia-noble.com/pua-videos/ or if these vids r good. I do know the more I learn about feminism, the more I understand how wo/men work & integrate that knowledge in my life. Why men & women write in national papers denigrating International Men's Day, but I doubt there is the same disrespect during IWD. Biological
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mimi112
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(Original post by rad_student)
Your 2000 link says men make up 40% of the victims forthe cases he looked at, same as in 2012/13 DV stats. Don't forget children don"t have a voice & http://www.youtube.com/user/HumanityBites some more aggresion hidden to fit a social construct, a destructive narrative.

Norway
The link via translator or google some people who wrote about it has already translated it. I've linked to that article & another already someplace. Read other sites comment about the videos & the person who made them, may make more sense.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_Gender_Institute

PUAs rely on understanding women's biological nature, to make themselves of higher status, resource-laden or something. I don't know too much (http://www.kezia-noble.com/pua-videos/ or if these vids r good. I do know the more I learn about feminism, the more I understand how wo/men work & integrate that knowledge in my life. Why men & women write in national papers denigrating International Men's Day, but I doubt there is the same disrespect during IWD. Biological
Women lash out more frequently than their husbands or boyfriends, concludes John Archer, professor of psychology at the University of Central Lancashire and president of the International Society for Research on Aggression.
that's what i meant, women start the violence more than men. on the other hand, men are better at finishing it for obv biological reasons .

as for the PUA's, they are sleazy ****ers but if it works then more power to them. the avg woman reacts to attitude/confidence/body language the same way a man does to cleavage/miniskirts/youth. i mean you can't get more biological than this. check the body language of the alpha in any group of social mammals compared to that of the beta males. her instincts take over even though in the back of her mind she probably knows the guy is faking it or is a douche. google ''why do girls like...'' and the most popular searches will always be jerks, bad boys etc.


The public debate in response to the 7-part documentary series "Hjernevask" (brainwashing) of the comedian Harald Eia, which aired in spring 2010 in the Norwegian television NRK had influence on the closing.[4][5] The Norwegian Parliament addressed these television reports, the core of the criticism concerned the scientific neglect of the biological to the social component
thx for the wiki link. a great result indeed. that doc should be shown on national TV in every western country.
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Raiden10
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(Original post by Rothwell)
Poor wording and unrelated. A female seahorse does not have a penis and a male seahorse does not have a vagina.
Well, yeah, I don't think fish do generally.
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Raiden10
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(Original post by chazwomaq)

But it's obviously a social construct because the form of the language varies depending on your environment. If someone is brought up without language as a child, they will struggle to learn it as an adult. So society shapes our language.
Actually there is a biological reason in the brain why this happens. The brain is geared at birth to learn language at a young stage. Children who do not are very limited in their ability to learn language at 12, say.

It really is for neurological reasons, it appears.

Presumably these neurological factors evolved as they did because of social reasons - invariably the child would learn language from their eldersat a young age. An older child would be better off dedicating their brain energy to other stuff. Evolution assumes the child learns young and doesn't make any back-up plans.

I suppose you could see evolution due to social parameters as social construction. But perhaps this is not the sort of social construction people are looking for when they say "socially constructed"?
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Raiden10
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(Original post by rad_student)

Do you have the peer reviewed citations? Is it Nielson et al., 2013, "we saw no differences in functional lateralization with gender"? His team also cite Adelstein et al., 2011 by writing "no significant effects of hemispheric asymmetry with gender, but reported that males tended to be more locally efficient in their right hemispheres and females tended to be more locally efficient in their left hemispheres." I.e. the brain's cerebral cortex do/may not execute different functions, but ... do differ physiologically - Biological.

MRI, PET, SPECT (nuclear medicine) - I'm still learning at Uni, though I have done my placement in CT. I can access the (quantitative) evidence based research, if I have time.

I don't understand your 100m meaning.
Men and women do on average process language differently. There are different patterns of lateralisation on average as well. All on average, as there are big differences between individuals.

Nobody is "more efficient in this or that hemisphere", it's a meaningless statement such is the variation from task to task, individual to individual.

Men are not more left brain dominant, nobody is. These sort of washover statements do not hold true from individual to individual, let alone from gender to gender. It's more complicated than that.
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uberteknik
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Ask Eddie Izzard. He describes himself as a lesbian in a mans body.
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Raiden10
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(Original post by Rothwell)
Then why quote him as if you were disproving what he said?
Hmm, I can't remember.
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mimi112
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men are at 75% for nature. but what is making women vote more towards nurture?

extra content:

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A Perfect Circle
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(Original post by mimi112)
men are at 75% for nature. but what is making women vote more towards nurture?

extra content:

I think quite a lot of women feel a need to compete against men and I'd imagine that they are disappointed by the fact that men happen to be at the top of most fields.

For some reason it stings their pride (despite the fact that these statistics of course cannot speak for their own ability) and saying that their "faults" were due to how they were raised is an easier pill to swallow than to say that they were born "inferior".

What they always forget is that while you're more likely to get male geniuses, you're also more likely to get very unintelligent men. But nobody focuses on that because no one boasts about being average (even though it makes them significantly more capable than the most unintelligent).
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(Original post by A Perfect Circle)
I think quite a lot of women feel a need to compete against men and I'd imagine that they are disappointed by the fact that men happen to be at the top of most fields.

For some reason it stings their pride (despite the fact that these statistics of course cannot speak for their own ability) and saying that their "faults" were due to how they were raised is an easier pill to swallow than to say that they were born "inferior".

What they always forget is that while you're more likely to get male geniuses, you're also more likely to get very unintelligent men. But nobody focuses on that because no one boasts about being average (even though it makes them significantly more capable than the most unintelligent).

you just nailed the **** out of it. i hope that one day women will stop seeing men as the enemy and we'll all try to complete each other and not compete against each other. like every other god damn species on earth.
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