Do you think we should abolish private schools? Watch

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Deycallmeboo
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(Original post by JamesTheCool)
stereotypical snobbery associated with private schools isn't far from the truth, (have you ever been to a Russell Group university?)

ok fair enough I've never been to a Russell group university, and yea I do often think that private schools does give kids an air of superiority and I hate people looking down their nose at me, but I'd prefer to spend time with snobs than disruptive kids that are found in some inner city state schools because the class sizes are too big so the teachers can't control their behaviour resulting in their belief they can do whatever they want.




(Original post by JamesTheCool)
wouldn't you feel even a little bad for the 93% of people who don't have access to such a cushy privilege?

No actually I wouldn't, not at all. I don't go to private school but I don't half work hard, so are you telling me that once I have put all that work in and I finally get a job and earn money that I can't spend it how I wish without feeling remorse? That is ridiculous!


(Original post by JamesTheCool)
'genuine' and well-mannered the way their parents have brought them up; the school itself is irrelevent) is completely shallow. You sound like someone who just wants to show off your well-behaved 'cultured' little brats to your fellow tea-drinking middle-class fruitcakes at dinner parties. Oh, and intelligence is not related to class. There's a difference between intelligence and knowledge; private schooled kids appear more 'intelligent' than the rest of us because they've been spoon-fed with knowledge (usually too much for their own good). In fact, statistically you're more likely to find a greater portion of kids with higher raw intelligence in state schools simply because a much bigger sample of people (93% of kids in the country) go to them.

Woah, that's a bit of a bold statement, I come from a working class family, my father left school without any qualifications and has managed to set us up nicely. Yeah he has brought me up to be well mannered (an area in which I guess your parents failed) but your environment day in day out affects that too, you spend an awful lot of time at school and so it is inevitable that school affects our personalities. Did I say intelligence was related to class? I think not. Yea I agree, when I have met private school people they seem more intelligent than me but guess what? The reason they seem that way is because they might well be. And if their is such a large portion of people doing well in state schools why are we having this debate? Shouldn't we just all snigger while people send their kids to private school under the impression it is better whilst we have a higher proportion of clever students?!


(Original post by JamesTheCool)
education is very important and a decent education should be open to all. But giving kids a far superior education than the rest of us purely on the basis that their parents are well-off is the height of elitism. You're allowing people with a totally unearned privilege to get far in life through little merit, innovation or originality of their own. I'd only send my kids to private school in the exceptional circumstance that the local state schools were terrible and I could afford it - but even then I'd feel bad and even guilty for the millions of unfortunate people in a similar situation who can't afford to do that, and I'd become a self-loathing hypocrite in the cold truth that the centre of human existence is selfishness and that, let's face it, all we really care about is ourselves.

I never said a decent education shouldn't be open for all, state schools need brushing up, my school for one is terrible but then again this contradicts your previous argument, that intelligence is not based on class and so a child should still thrive in a state school though perhaps not as well as a private school child. You almost sound communist, elitism?! Someone down that family line has worked for that money, so to say it is totally unearned is very sweeping, oh and the suggestion that private school kids are without innovation is almost snobbery in itself.
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Agapelove
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(Original post by ckingalt)

The way to seek equality without becoming a tyrant is to attempt to improve opportunity, not diminish privilege.
Awesome point.

Improving opportunity is crucial. If more wealthy people would voluntarily support children who have less opportunity, thus improving the opportunity of those children not born in wealth, that would greatly help.

It's important though that the wealthy have freedom to do so or not. Many would without being forced, due to caring for others.
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JamesTheCool
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(Original post by Deycallmeboo)
ok fair enough I've never been to a Russell group university, and yea I do often think that private schools does give kids an air of superiority and I hate people looking down their nose at me, but I'd prefer to spend time with snobs than disruptive kids that are found in some inner city state schools because the class sizes are too big so the teachers can't control their behaviour resulting in their belief they can do whatever they want.
If you go to a Russell Group university you'll notice how stark the contrast is between state schooled and privately educated students. Well, it's not always that obvious but in some cases it's a joke! Unfortunately a sizeable portion of people who go to the best universities are some of the most egoistic, self-righteous oiks and buffoons on the planet. There is a lot of resentment from state schooled students towards pompous kids at university and in all honesty I don't blame them for feeling that way.

I understand your point about disruptive kids, having suffered them myself, but I'm not sure if I'd want my kids to be brought up with snobby children who may osctracise them and shun their potential. Besides, at most state comprehensives the disruptive kids tend to fizzle out during GCSEs and are almost extinct at A-Levels.
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Deycallmeboo
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(Original post by JamesTheCool)
If you go to a Russell Group university you'll notice how stark the contrast is between state schooled and privately educated students. Well, it's not always that obvious but in some cases it's a joke! Unfortunately a sizeable portion of people who go to the best universities are some of the most egoistic, self-righteous oiks and buffoons on the planet. There is a lot of resentment from state schooled students towards pompous kids at university and in all honesty I don't blame them for feeling that way.

I understand your point about disruptive kids, having suffered them myself, but I'm not sure if I'd want my kids to be brought up with snobby children who may osctracise them and shun their potential. Besides, at most state comprehensives the disruptive kids tend to fizzle out during GCSEs and are almost extinct at A-Levels.
yeah I can see how that would happen with them having their every need pandered to! Yeah I wish they wouldn't be there for a levels, but for my year, it is a legality that they have to carry on with some form of education until they're 18, mind you there are apprentice schemes so I suppose my a levels may be relatively un disrupted!
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Flobie
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(Original post by JamesTheCool)
If you go to a Russell Group university you'll notice how stark the contrast is between state schooled and privately educated students. Well, it's not always that obvious but in some cases it's a joke! Unfortunately a sizeable portion of people who go to the best universities are some of the most egoistic, self-righteous oiks and buffoons on the planet. There is a lot of resentment from state schooled students towards pompous kids at university and in all honesty I don't blame them for feeling that way.

I understand your point about disruptive kids, having suffered them myself, but I'm not sure if I'd want my kids to be brought up with snobby children who may osctracise them and shun their potential. Besides, at most state comprehensives the disruptive kids tend to fizzle out during GCSEs and are almost extinct at A-Levels.
I'm sick of people being so against private schools. People always screw their faces up when I say I go to a private school. Yes, some private school kids have mansions in Spain and get stupid amounts of pocket money, but there's a girl in my year, who is one of the sweetest people I know, whose fees are paid by the school, and part of the uniform costs, because she simply doesn't have the money. We're not all stuck up, and we're not all stupidly rich. We don't look down on state school kids. You call us "pompous kids"- how would you feel if we just decided to assume all state school kids are grotty chavs?

There's no way I would be where I am today if I'd gone to a state school. My schools teachers are brilliant. Rather than abolishing private schools, why not focus more on getting state schools up to the same level?


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MindTheGaps
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(Original post by JamesTheCool)
If you go to a Russell Group university you'll notice how stark the contrast is between state schooled and privately educated students. Well, it's not always that obvious but in some cases it's a joke! Unfortunately a sizeable portion of people who go to the best universities are some of the most egoistic, self-righteous oiks and buffoons on the planet. There is a lot of resentment from state schooled students towards pompous kids at university and in all honesty I don't blame them for feeling that way.

I understand your point about disruptive kids, having suffered them myself, but I'm not sure if I'd want my kids to be brought up with snobby children who may osctracise them and shun their potential. Besides, at most state comprehensives the disruptive kids tend to fizzle out during GCSEs and are almost extinct at A-Levels.
Your mix of toff-bashing and snobbishness is quite amusing.

As is the idea, evident from your last few posts, that you can speak for state-school students, and the assumption anyone who disagrees with you could be doing so because they be a privately educated, middle-class twit.

I went to a comprehensive, I now go to Oxford. Your experiences have not been my experiences, but to be honest I suspect you see what you want to see.
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JamesTheCool
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(Original post by Deycallmeboo)
yeah I can see how that would happen with them having their every need pandered to! Yeah I wish they wouldn't be there for a levels, but for my year, it is a legality that they have to carry on with some form of education until they're 18, mind you there are apprentice schemes so I suppose my a levels may be relatively un disrupted!
That's true. If you're doing your A-Levels at your school, most disruptive kids will probably go to different colleges to study Btecs in Mickey Mouse subjects anyway. Not much different to how it was before the legality lol.
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EllyJelly
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We've moved on from the days where everybody with money hadn't worked a day in their life and simply sat about frittering away their parents' inheritances. That's the tiniest minority now. The vast majority of 'well-off' parents worked damn hard to get the money to send their kids to private school. Why shouldn't they be allowed to spend the money they've earned on giving their kids the best possible education?
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natninja
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(Original post by sevchenko)
Urm we don't live in communist China. Abolishing private schools to totally uncapitalistic. If we started banning private enterprise where will it stop? Will we start banning private health business, such as Bupa, because people treated there receive a better standard of care and can possible live longer than people treated on the NHS. If we apply your silly equality policy private enterprise, the key of a capitalistic society will cease to flourish.
You'd be surprised at the number of people I go to university with who actually believe that private enterprise SHOULD be abolished... issue there is that the country becomes uncompetitive with the rest of the world and everyone who lives there suffers... it's something that could potentially work if carefully organised on a global scale and is ideologically lovely - the practicality is a totally different issue... and this is a university that many leading politicians got their degrees from...

My take on the issue is that if state schools were up to scratch then why would people pay for something they could get for free? (Corollary - therefore private schools strive to improve and as a result you get improvement in the state sector due to a push in people wanting equality of opportunity) Why reduce privilege rather than create opportunity? Also, and this is entirely besides the point, but they are quite a major invisible export - (rich) foreigners send their kids there and this not only brings in the money from the fees but also the fact that the kids get pocket money (and sometimes large amounts... one guy at the school I was at was given £500 a week and spent it all) and then they spend it which puts money into the local economy (there were a fair few shops in the town I went to school that would simply have folded without the school being there...
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natninja
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(Original post by Cnuofesd)
Is there anybody who has been to a private school but feels that they should be abolished?
Go to Oxford... you'll find more private school kids who think they should be abolished than state school kids who do...
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¯\(°_o)/¯
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(Original post by james22)
Equality should not be our primary aim, our primary aim should be to increase the standard of living of the poorest in society. If this means that the rich get even better still, that doesn't really matter.

You hit the nail on the head.

People who hate Private schools are just irrational. What better to spend your money on than your childs education?
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überambitious_ox
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NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I went to a private school, and plan to send my children also!
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~Cat
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I personally believe we should revert to the old grammar system.


Private schooling in my eyes definitely gives you an advantage; in opportunities and in terms of teaching quality. Why should it be that your parents income should decide your quality of education. I feel as though I should be judged as an individual. Not whether my parents can afford something or not.


I received 9A*s at GCSE, at a state school. Matching grades to a close friend. We were like minded and pursuing similar alevels, except she moved to a private school , whereas I was forced to go to the local sixth form. I received the grades ABBc, she received the grades A*AAA. And let me tell you I worked my arse off to get those. At my college I experienced a profound incompetence to teach; I found myself having to teach myself entire subjects and was subject to bullying from certain teachers.


I had a lot of potential, and decent teaching could have helped me excel, even reach the grades needed for Oxbridge.


In my local area the choice was between 2 private schools or 3 sixth form colleges. It felt like an apartheid between the rich and poor.
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JamesTheCool
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(Original post by Flobie)
I'm sick of people being so against private schools. People always screw their faces up when I say I go to a private school. Yes, some private school kids have mansions in Spain and get stupid amounts of pocket money, but there's a girl in my year, who is one of the sweetest people I know, whose fees are paid by the school, and part of the uniform costs, because she simply doesn't have the money. We're not all stuck up, and we're not all stupidly rich. We don't look down on state school kids. You call us "pompous kids"- how would you feel if we just decided to assume all state school kids are grotty chavs?
The stigma around private schools isn't totally unjustified if you had an experience like I did in my first year at uni around such people who went to them. Mind you, I found it was mainly those who study highly competitive courses like Medicine who tended to be the worst, most entitled species of human I've ever had the displeasure of encountering, whereas those who studied more laid-back subjects were much easier to get on with (in fact, I didn't even realise they were privately educated until they mentioned it). Anyway, merely an experience. I'm not saying all privately educated kids are pompous and I'm sorry for lazily typing that because that's not what I meant... it's just that most pompous kids usually are privately educated...

I wouldn't care if you decided to assume all state school kids are grotty chavs because in all honesty a lot of us probably are. I'm equally irked by both stereotypes so whatever prejudices you decide to have about us doesn't bother me; a sizeable portion of us actually are a bunch of good-for-nothing *******s who will always be downtrodden, perhaps deservedly...

(Original post by Flobie)
There's no way I would be where I am today if I'd gone to a state school. My schools teachers are brilliant. Rather than abolishing private schools, why not focus more on getting state schools up to the same level?
So in other words you admit that what you've achieved in your life hasn't been entirely through your own steam then? 'My teachers are brilliant' - that's okay for you to say, but you're in the minority of people who have access to such a privilege that is far out of reach for the rest of us who have to think outside the box and sweat blood if we ever dare try to move up the social ladder. In my GCSEs I had to self-educate to get the best grades because my teachers didn't have enough time to cover everything. Btw I'm not accusing you of being a snob, but you can't really empathise with us because you have absolutely no experience or idea of how miserable, frustrating and boring life is for a lot of ordinary people.

That's precisely my problem with private and state school segregation. At a young age, out of no control of your own, your future is essentially mapped out for you based on whether or not you're born into the wealthiest 7% of families in this country - which, like it or not, is an unearned privilege (because it's not really your money, is it?), and the key reason why Britain will always be a deeply conservative, un-meritocratic nation. Helping the rich get the cremiest jobs through little actual merit or innovation of their own can be quite damaging for the rest society, especially when poorer-but-more-talented people are probably capable of doing an even better job of running the country...

I agree, state schools should be brought up to the same level of private schools, but it won't happen tomorrow. For the time being, the education system in this country is still a total joke and too many people are losing out in life because of it. It's a disgrace...
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TDL70
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#95
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YES, in an ideal world private schools should be abolished. I take the point that education is a valid thing to spend money on but the rest of Europe seems to manage perfectly well with state funded education so why can't we? In a Italy or France for example you would only send your child to a public/private school if he/she was educationally subnormal in some way. Also, in Iran you are unable to get a lectureship at a good university if any of your schooling took place outside the state system - because state schools and universities are more highly thought of.

Here is why it would be advantageous to ban private schools in the UK:

The middle and upper classes, including the political classes, would be forced to turn their attention to improving standards in their local schools - this would ultimately benefit everyone.

As long as the schools were academically streamed (with flexibility to move between streams subject to end of year exam results) then there would be no disadvantage for bright kids.

It is better for society generally that children from different social classes mix. That way the 'snobs' can see that not all 'chavs' are chavs and vice versa. It is not a coincidence that the rest of Europe has better social integration than us - eg university educated person has factory worker friends etc. I believe this would ultimately have a positive aspect on all levels of society, including at political level.

Without an actual ban nothing will ever change - people who can afford it will continue to segregate their kids.

Alas, it will never happen :-)
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Welsh_insomniac
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#96
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A benefit of abolishing private schools would also be to abolish faith schools as well. We can fight both injustices with one swoop and then every child will, theoretically receive the same education and maybe we will have a bit less social segregation between rich and poor and faith/faithless.

Apart from those from better areas will have better state schools... and those in poor areas will still have poor state schools.
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TDL70
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(Original post by Welsh_insomniac)
A benefit of abolishing private schools would also be to abolish faith schools as well. We can fight both injustices with one swoop and then every child will, theoretically receive the same education and maybe we will have a bit less social segregation between rich and poor and faith/faithless.

Apart from those from better areas will have better state schools... and those in poor areas will still have poor state schools.
Totally agree with you about faith schools.
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MindTheGaps
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(Original post by JamesTheCool)
So in other words you admit that what you've achieved in your life hasn't been entirely through your own steam then? 'My teachers are brilliant.' - That might be fine for you to say, but you're in the minority of people who have access to such a privilege that is far out of reach for the rest of us who have to think outside the box and sweat blood if we ever dared to try to move up the social ladder. You can't really empathise because you have no absolutely no experience or idea of how miserable, frustrating and boring life is for ordinary people like me.

That's precisely my problem with private and state school segregation. At a young age, and out of no control of your own, your future is essentially mapped out for you based on whether or not you're born into the wealthiest 7% of families in this country - which, like it or not, is an unearned privilege, and the key reason why Britain will always be a deeply conservative, un-meritocratic nation. Helping the rich get the cremiest jobs through little actual merit or innovation of their own can be quite damaging for the rest society, especially when poorer-but-more-talented people could probably do a better job of running the country...

I agree, state schools should be brought up to the same level of private schools, but it won't happen tomorrow. For the time being, the education system in this country is a total joke and the majority of people are being screwed over because of it...
This is extremely flawed logic. Yes, generally private schools have better teachers, which obviously helps, but the much greater influence is the atmosphere and ethos where hard work and academic success are both encouraged and rewarded.

The real problem many people find in state schools is not that the teachers cannot teach the subject, but that they cannot control their unruly pupils, who waste everyone's time and view academic success as an embarrassment.

No matter how good a teacher is, the kid still has to do the learning. They cannot force knowledge into your head. I do not think working hard in a productive environment can be classified as 'not achieving though your own steam'.

Finally just because your life is miserable, frustrating and boring doesn't mean the same is true for all the other 'people like you'.
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MindTheGaps
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(Original post by Welsh_insomniac)
A benefit of abolishing private schools would also be to abolish faith schools as well. We can fight both injustices with one swoop and then every child will, theoretically receive the same education and maybe we will have a bit less social segregation between rich and poor and faith/faithless.

Apart from those from better areas will have better state schools... and those in poor areas will still have poor state schools.
This makes absolutely no sense at all.

Firstly, not all faith schools are private. Far from it, in fact.
Secondly, how is having a faith, or being educated by religious people, an injustice?

Unless you're some Soviet nutjob who thinks that religion is a tool of the bourgeoisie or something similarly ridiculous.
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Welsh_insomniac
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(Original post by Rinsed)
This makes absolutely no sense at all.

Firstly, not all faith schools are private. Far from it, in fact.
Secondly, how is having a faith, or being educated by religious people, an injustice?

Unless you're some Soviet nutjob who thinks that religion is a tool of the bourgeoisie or something similarly ridiculous.
If I am a Soviet nutjob for wanting the separation of religion and the state then so be it. I simply do not believe that religious schools belong in the 21st century and do not wish children to be subjugated to religion. This country has had a gruesome history of religious tyranny.
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