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What percentage of blame, if at all any, rests with the victim during rape? Watch

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    (Original post by redferry)
    Except sharks, especially tiger, bull and great whites (these are the three that bite people most often) have evolved for literally millions of years to stealthily attack prey on the surface (turtles in the case of tiger and bulls, seals amd other marine mammals in the case of great whites) from below without being detected. If its faffing about on the surface it sure as hell isn't about to bite you.

    It was a terrible analogy.

    A better one would be that you could wear chainmail while surfing to protect from shark attack.

    I'm sure it'll catch on.
    It's not a terrible analogy. You are just a bore who has taken a decent analogy literally.
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    No, I was comparing the fact that both have such predictable behaviour. Hornets also have six legs while rapist have two if you are going to attack irrelevant details
    Except you can only predict the behaviour a hornet because you know it is there.

    You do not know where a Rapist is going to be.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Except sharks, especially tiger, bull and great whites (these are the three that bite people most often) have evolved for literally millions of years to stealthily attack prey on the surface (turtles in the case of tiger and bulls, seals amd other marine mammals in the case of great whites) from below without being detected. If its faffing about on the surface it sure as hell isn't about to bite you.

    It was a terrible analogy.

    A better one would be that you could wear chainmail while surfing to protect from shark attack.

    I'm sure it'll catch on.
    The analogy was that both exist, and being prepared that you might have to deal with one is not victim blaming.
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    (Original post by RHyoudon'kno)
    No blame should be put on the victim. People have a right to dress and act how they want. No one's asking the guy to go rape them.
    But as an adult you must make own responsibility when encountering in such situations and environments that is adjacent of risks.
    You and I cannot dictate and impose ideals on peoples actions,in society we have more negative people that would if given a chance would commit any sort foul,savage acts.
    As you said people have the right to dress and act how they want but by saying that you are indirectly encouraging the negative ideals.
    Tbh I am shocked at the way women dress sometimes
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    (Original post by Blue_Mason)
    But as an adult you must make own responsibility when encountering in such situations and environments that is adjacent of risks.
    You and I cannot dictate and impose ideals on peoples actions,in society we have more negative people that would if given a chance would commit any sort foul,savage acts.
    As you said people have the right to dress and act how they want but by saying that you are indirectly encouraging the negative ideals.
    Tbh I am shocked at the way women dress sometimes
    The way a woman dresses has no bearing on the likelihood of her being raped.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Except you can only predict the behaviour a hornet because you know it is there.

    You do not know where a Rapist is going to be.
    Wrong. Everyone knows rapists frequent bars and clubs. Anyone who has gone on a night out will have been in the presence of one. Whether they are easy to identify or not, they key is that you make it impossible for them to target you.

    Stay in groups, don't get ridiculously drunk etc etc
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    (Original post by redferry)
    And the answer to both of those is, for the overwhelming majority of people, no. As for the others, they will find a way to do it regardless.
    And yet, our prisons are full because people have been given these opportunities?
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    No, I was comparing the fact that both have such predictable behaviour. Hornets also have six legs while rapist have two if you are going to attack irrelevant details
    Except if you see a hornet you know its a hornet, and take measures to protect yourself. If you see a rapist you think "hey it is Joe from the office, I am perfectly comfortable around this guy and see no reason I should be on my guard"

    Rapists are not recognizable as rapists until they are actively raping you. You are basically saying women should act around men men in general the same way they would around a shark or hornets nest.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    The way a woman dresses has no bearing on the likelihood of her being raped.

    But she has a higher chance of being sexually and verbally abused
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    Wrong. Everyone knows rapists frequent bars and clubs. Anyone who has gone on a night out will have been in the presence of one. Whether they are easy to identify or not, they key is that you make it impossible for them to target you.

    Stay in groups, don't get ridiculously drunk etc etc
    Not really. The number of rapes that are committed by random attackers that were at the bar you were at is actually very small.

    The reality of Rape is that committed by Family members/Friends

    So. if you were actually serious about rape, then you would be talking about methods to stop that. Not about these absurd comparisons to hornets and etc.
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    (Original post by lucaf)
    Except if you see a hornet you know its a hornet, and take measures to protect yourself. If you see a rapist you think "hey it is Joe from the office, I am perfectly comfortable around this guy and see no reason I should be on my guard"

    Rapists are not recognizable as rapists until they are actively raping you. You are basically saying women should act around men men in general the same way they would around a shark or hornets nest.
    That's a good point, but that wasn't the scenario I was talking about. I was talking mostly about women claiming that they shouldn't have to change their behaviour to avoid attracting strangers. Obviously if it Joe form the office, thats different entirely, but it is still equally futile teaching Joe 'not to rape'
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    (Original post by pane123)
    It's not a terrible analogy. You are just a bore who has taken a decent analogy literally.
    Well it is a good analogy in that you can do very little to stop a shark attack. No matter how many lookouts you post, or what you wear, who how good you are at surfing or diving, a sharks still going to eat you if it feels like it and there's nothing you can do about it.

    That's why surfers don't take precautions against sharks, as the only solution is to put up big nets that keep them away from the beach, which not only kill them by trapping and drowning them, but also harm other wildlife in the process. I guess you could use it as an analogy - having women's only spaces whilst simultaneously bringing in the death penalty for rapists - the only way to stop yourself getting raped is to not associate with men and kill rapists? But then some innocent men might die? Because this is what I am getting from this analogy?
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    The analogy was that both exist, and being prepared that you might have to deal with one is not victim blaming.
    But surfers don't prepare for shark attacks and they don't get accused of it being their fault when they die?
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    I think there is some nuance missing from this debate.

    The fact of the matter is that whether we like it or not, our behaviour affects how likely we are to be victims of crime, and rape is no different. If someone leaves their bike unattended day after day without a bike lock and one day it gets stolen, the victim holds a degree of causal responsibility for this insofar as his or her choices contributed to the outcome. Now, the victim didn't do anything wrong, but you could argue they were negligent and so on. There is also a culture in the UK of believing people deserve the fruits of their negligence, e.g. that "stupid people deserve what they get", or in this case at least, "what did they expect to happen?". This is victim-blaming.

    Now, I have no idea whether wearing short skirts and so on causally contributes to rape, but if the question is whether people can be negligent and wilfully put themselves into situations that put them at risk, the answer to that is yes. Again we can encounter victim-blaming.

    There is a line between acknowledging that people can take reasonable precautions to prevent them from being a victim of crime versus excusing the perpetrators of that crime. Failing to make this distinction actively inhibits the spreading of information that could potentially reduce instances the crime in question. For example, could you imagine an ad campaign of the sort seen on TV raising awareness of not idly chatting outside on your phone at night, but for avoiding rape? People'd go insane.

    I don't think a person should be blamed for being a victim of any crime no matter how negligent they were being, but it would be wrong of me to imply it's impossible for them to be negligent or for their negligence not to impinge on their causal relationship to the crime.

    If "blame" is just short-hand for acknowledging causal dependency, yes you can blame victims of crime where those victims failed to take reasonable precautions against that crime. The questions are whether that's what "blame" means and what are the reasonable precautions a person might employ against rape (personally I think avoiding short skirts isn't one of them).
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Not really. The number of rapes that are committed by random attackers that were at the bar you were at is actually very small.

    The reality of Rape is that committed by Family members/Friends

    So. if you were actually serious about rape, then you would be talking about methods to stop that. Not about these absurd comparisons to hornets and etc.
    I am, but I assumed we were talking about student life, not incest
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    (Original post by redferry)
    But surfers don't prepare for shark attacks and they don't get accused of it being their fault when they die?
    If the area was shark infested, they would receive less sympathy than someone who was attacked by a rogue shark
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    (Original post by Blue_Mason)
    But she has a higher chance of being sexually and verbally abused
    Well, there is not a lot of research that suggests what you are saying is true. Rapists tend to be opportunistic. They do not go around looking for women in shorts skirts to rape.
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    That's a good point, but that wasn't the scenario I was talking about. I was talking mostly about women claiming that they shouldn't have to change their behaviour to avoid attracting strangers. Obviously if it Joe form the office, thats different entirely, but it is still equally futile teaching Joe 'not to rape'
    So what you are saying is we should all modify our entire lives against stranger rape, a small minority of rapes - 27%.

    Of which, of course, not all will necessarily have clothing or behaviour as a factor at all.
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    If the area was shark infested, they would receive less sympathy than someone who was attacked by a rogue shark
    Really, would they???

    That girl with one arm received a loooot of sympathy despite losing it on a beach where shark attacks are known to occurr.

    No one called her an idiot for getting back to surfing again either.
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    (Original post by TheAnusFiles)
    I am, but I assumed we were talking about student life, not incest
    Well if were talking university here most rapists are still known to the victim.
 
 
 
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