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    (Original post by StevieA)
    I stopped taking the ''some'' people seriously along time ago. ''Some people can run the 100 in under 10s, some can't''.
    And I run it in NINE NINE. Peace be the journey!


    On a serious note... there's so much chat about this and it still doesn't make sense.

    I grew up in an equal household in terms of "gender power" (bleeugh), partly in social paradise Scandinavia. I played with ALL DA TOYS, fast-forwarded through the love scenes in Disney films because they sucked and played with whoever I damn wanted to. My whole life I've felt just the flamin' same as both boys and girls! If I want to go out with someone, I (moon for ages and then) just ask them - not to be a powaful, indapendent woman, but because I fancy them and want to give it a go. Same in other aspects of my life.

    I'm loath to dismiss theories without considering them properly, but when everything seems so simple in real life, the never-ending theoretical twaddle eventually just does my nut in.
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    (Original post by StevieA)
    Some women will be exceptions ( as the title says, it's ''most women''). The women of high status and income you mentioned will almost always look for men of even higher status and income. Someone said in the start of the thread that women do not submit to ''beta males'' and that is true, although it's more complicated than that. They ''submit'' to men they see as better than they are. A female doctor will almost never marry a male nurse and a business woman will almost never marry her male secretary, they will marry men that have higher status and income (while rich men marry lower status women all the time). They are looking for someone above them, not bellow. They want a leader, not a follower. See how rarely famous women marry a guy who isn't incredibly rich and/famous, even if they don't need that and have plenty of money of their own. Also the reason so many are single, ''super-alpha'' types are not exactly easy to find.

    This is why the question '' where have all the good men gone?'' is so popular these days. Since women are now able to get and education and work they can obtain status and income on their own. So it's not that good men have suddenly vanished, it's women's natural tendency to look for a ''superior'' partner or a leader that makes ''good men'' much tougher to find since their income/status has to be of far higher levels than in the past.

    Oh, and another thing. Women almost always have an older partner, many times quite a few years older. It's unreal how many girls love guys almost twice their age. I always see people say it's because they see them as more mature than younger guys or because the men are wealthy/stable at that age. While those two points are very good ones there's also another thing : older age is associated with wisdom, confidence, experience, assertiveness and other similar qualities. Again , leadership qualities. The same reason people are very reluctant to vote for younger political candidates. Most women want their partner to be their general, not their private.

    Strange, I know lots of women who have married men younger than themselves - 3 aunts for a start and even more who have married men with poorer educational qualifications and earnings. It is quite common for professional women to marry self employed men who earn very little but want an independent life style?

    I also know a consultant who married a male psychiatric nurse. and another who married a male teacher and a Head Teacher who married a male classroom teacher.

    I think your presumptions may be increasingly out of date. People, men and women, are looking for a more equal partnership nowadays and women no longer need to rely on the earning power of a man but want to have control over their own finances and have choices which a man expects to have.

    I would guess that your presumptions are the reason why so many marriages/relationships break down. Men have not moved with the times and are still expecting obedience from their wives rather than a mutually satisfying cooperative relationship. No wonder they are bewildered by their lack of success in maintaining a relationship if they think of themselves as a military leader giving out orders.

    Heavens, the ' promise to obey' part of the marriage service is rarely heard nowadays.

    The change is women's ability to earn money instead of being sacked when they married or became pregnant. Now they have choice and don't just have to put up with receiving orders from a 'general'.
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    (Original post by pickup)
    Strange, I know lots of women who have married men younger than themselves - 3 aunts for a start and even more who have married men with poorer educational qualifications and earnings. It is quite common for professional women to marry self employed men who earn very little but want an independent life style?

    I also know a consultant who married a male psychiatric nurse. and another who married a male teacher and a Head Teacher who married a male classroom teacher.

    I think your presumptions may be increasingly out of date. People, men and women, are looking for a more equal partnership nowadays and women no longer need to rely on the earning power of a man but want to have control over their own finances and have choices which a man expects to have.

    I would guess that your presumptions are the reason why so many marriages/relationships break down. Men have not moved with the times and are still expecting obedience from their wives rather than a mutually satisfying cooperative relationship. No wonder they are bewildered by their lack of success in maintaining a relationship if they think of themselves as a military leader giving out orders.

    Heavens, the ' promise to obey' part of the marriage service is rarely heard nowadays.

    The change is women's ability to earn money instead of being sacked when they married or became pregnant. Now they have choice and don't just have to put up with receiving orders from a 'general'.
    Haha. I wouldn't mind a wife who earns more/has a higher societal status than me. The problem is that it is difficult to marry 'up' for an average man(I fall into this category), as my potential partners are probably taken, and even if they aren't taken, they don't have to settle for less, when they can get a partner as rich/powerful.

    On the other hand, for a pretty attractive young woman, it's easy to do so as they have something the 'competition' can't offer.
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    (Original post by 1drowssap)
    Haha. I wouldn't mind a wife who earns more/has a higher societal status than me. The problem is that it is difficult to marry 'up' for an average man(I fall into this category), as my potential partners are probably taken, and even if they aren't taken, they don't have to settle for less, when they can get a partner as rich/powerful.

    On the other hand, for a pretty attractive young woman, it's easy to do so as they have something the 'competition' can't offer.
    Well, the secret is to go where women who earn more / have a higher status go so you can meet them. Such women don't need your money and status and can/will choose on the basis of looks, character, personal qualities - much as men have always done.
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    (Original post by pickup)
    Strange, I know lots of women who have married men younger than themselves - 3 aunts for a start and even more who have married men with poorer educational qualifications and earnings. It is quite common for professional women to marry self employed men who earn very little but want an independent life style?

    I also know a consultant who married a male psychiatric nurse. and another who married a male teacher and a Head Teacher who married a male classroom teacher.

    I think your presumptions may be increasingly out of date. People, men and women, are looking for a more equal partnership nowadays and women no longer need to rely on the earning power of a man but want to have control over their own finances and have choices which a man expects to have.

    I would guess that your presumptions are the reason why so many marriages/relationships break down. Men have not moved with the times and are still expecting obedience from their wives rather than a mutually satisfying cooperative relationship. No wonder they are bewildered by their lack of success in maintaining a relationship if they think of themselves as a military leader giving out orders.

    Heavens, the ' promise to obey' part of the marriage service is rarely heard nowadays.

    The change is women's ability to earn money instead of being sacked when they married or became pregnant. Now they have choice and don't just have to put up with receiving orders from a 'general'.
    The couples you mentioned are a minority. Most women still earn less than their partners. Most women still want their partner to earn more than them and they want to stay at home with the children. I think you will find that it's mostly women (minus the feminist minority) who are keen to keep gender roles the way they are. There's a billion guys out there who'd love to stay at home or do part time work while spending most of the time being happy with their hobbies, a position so many women enjoy. But how many women will want them, especially high income women? What are to 2 main things women ask for when you go to any dating site? Way above average height and income : both dominating traits, physical and status/wealth. Only a small % of women will date unemployed men yet most men would date unemployed women. Rich women want to marry rich men while rich men don't necessarily want rich women.

    As for the man being the general, I'm not talking about someone who shouts orders at you and treats you like ****. This is what feminists don't understand when dominance is brought up. I'm talking about someone who always knows what to do or say and has the confidence of a surgeon. I'm talking about James Bond. Women just love guys like that. He's in control and she is the ''follower'' but it's natural for both and both are happy with it. The same way most women love being dominated in bed and most men love dominating.

    In conclusion : most women do not want to be men. They still want to either stay at home, study ''girly'' subjects, do feminine jobs, have the men ask them out and take charge in relationships, they want the guy to fix the roof or check the noises downstairs in the middle of the night, have the guy on top during sex etc etc . Do they want equal rights and opportunities? Sure, who doesn't? But the thing is the more freedom women have the more unequal the outcomes tend to be as seen in the example of the nordic countries (feminist citadels) where women still make the most stereotypical choices whether it's degrees, jobs or lifestlye in general. In fact, these are the countries with some of the unequal outcomes in the word, more so than in places where women need their own train cars in order to avoid assault or are banned from stadiums.



    The site surveyed a random sample of nearly 15,000 of their members in order to discern what type of people millionaires prefer to date. The results revealed that the vast majority of millionaire men, 79.6 percent, seek out non-millionaire women, while 84.5 percent of the female millionaires would prefer to date another millionaire.

    In a new survey conducted by an online dating service, three-quarters of women said they were unlikely to date a man who is unemployed. Only one-third of the guys surveyed, by contrast, refuse to go with women who don’t have jobs.
    A study by France's national statistics institute Insee found that three quarters of the country's women who had a revenue and were in a relationship earned an average of 42% less than their husbands or boyfriends.


    In 2011 the average salary of the woman in a couple was €16,700 compared with €29,000 earned by her partner. Only a quarter of full-time working women earned more than their male partners.
    The majority of American mothers who serve as their household's primary earner aren't thrilled about the role.


    Only 46% of breadwinning moms say they are pleased with their earning status, as opposed to 75% of dads who are primary earners, according to a new report from Working Mother Media and PwC. That's likely because most women in that role didn't choose it — 71% say they became the primary earner by chance or because of an unexpected change in their partner's work situation.
    84% of working women told ForbesWoman and TheBump that staying home to raise children is a financial luxury they aspire to.

    What’s more, more than one in three resent their partner for not earning enough to make that dream a reality.
    The poll found that 75 per cent of new mothers said they would have stayed at home ‘if money was no object’.

    Only 12 per cent did not want to be full-time mothers. A further 13 per cent replied ‘don’t know’.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...afford-to.html

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-male-partners

    http://www.businessinsider.com/women...ppiness-2014-2

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-male-partners

    http://business.time.com/2012/06/29/...-date-for-you/
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    If women were so submissive, I don't think divorce rates would be so high; in fact I'd go as far as to say in many cases 'irreconcilable differences' occur because both parties want their own way and aren't able to get it i.e. neither submits to the other.
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    (Original post by Nomes89)
    If women were so submissive, I don't think divorce rates would be so high; in fact I'd go as far as to say in many cases 'irreconcilable differences' occur because both parties want their own way and aren't able to get it i.e. neither submits to the other.
    That's actually a very good point. And it goes back to what I and some of the other posters mentioned : women do not submit to ''inferior males''. Many women these days get to 30 then marry out of desperation (biological clock, social pressure etc), so most of them are forced to choose a man they wouldn't have spat on if he was on fire 5-10 years earlier. The desirable men are few and far between (and probably taken) so most women simply have to ''settle''. And that's why the divorce rate is so high and the majority of it is initiated by women. Most women hate being with a man who isn't ''superior'' to them. It's the same million year old instinct that makes most women say they feel awkward around a partner who is shorter than them.

    As much as we humans want to think we are some unique, ethereal species, at the end of the day we are made from the same elements rats and ants are made from. We are all made of stars (supernovas, to be more exact).
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    (Original post by StevieA)
    That's actually a very good point. And it goes back to what I and some of the other posters mentioned : women do not submit to ''inferior males''. Many women these days get to 30 then marry out of desperation (biological clock, social pressure etc), so most of them are forced to choose a man they wouldn't have spat on if he was on fire 5-10 years earlier. The desirable men are few and far between (and probably taken) so most women simply have to ''settle''. And that's why the divorce rate is so high and the majority of it is initiated by women. Most women hate being with a man who isn't ''superior'' to them. It's the same million year old instinct that makes most women say they feel awkward around a partner who is shorter than them.

    As much as we humans want to think we are some unique, ethereal species, at the end of the day we are made from the same elements rats and ants are made from. We are all made of stars (supernovas, to be more exact).
    I'd have to disagree slightly. While most women want a dominant character in a man at the same time they are less prepared to be submissive these days and don't actually want to be dominated, hence the conflict of interest occurs and the fallouts increase. Their ideals don't match with their own characters so there's a compatibility issue. That and people change in the lifespan of a relationship; one can start out being submissive but then grow resentful...and then divorce (hence my intial point). To highlight my point, a lot of female divorcees then turn to toyboys i.e. more submissive men to re-dress the imbalance of their previous relationships.

    Also to add, don't assume money is power in a relationship. Often time the man will earn the lion's share of the household income but it will be the woman who ultimately decides where they live, where they go on holiday, when/if they have kids, where those kids will go to school etc. More women are becoming decision makers. Another reason why I'd say that female submission is being gradually eroded.
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    (Original post by StevieA)
    That's actually a very good point. And it goes back to what I and some of the other posters mentioned : women do not submit to ''inferior males''. Many women these days get to 30 then marry out of desperation (biological clock, social pressure etc), so most of them are forced to choose a man they wouldn't have spat on if he was on fire 5-10 years earlier. The desirable men are few and far between (and probably taken) so most women simply have to ''settle''. And that's why the divorce rate is so high and the majority of it is initiated by women. Most women hate being with a man who isn't ''superior'' to them. It's the same million year old instinct that makes most women say they feel awkward around a partner who is shorter than them.

    As much as we humans want to think we are some unique, ethereal species, at the end of the day we are made from the same elements rats and ants are made from. We are all made of stars (supernovas, to be more exact).
    The claim that the prime cause of the 'high' divorce rate is women who first married at 30 or over out of desperation and who leave their husbands because the husband has lower financial/social status than them, or than what they had previously been looking for in a man, seems like a relatively easy one to support with evidence, if it's true. When are you going to attempt that?
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    (Original post by StevieA)
    Women 's fantasies almost always include men who are powerful and/or physically dominant (tall, strong etc). Billionaires, presidents, rock stars, footballers, princes or kings, men in uniform (soldiers, cops, firemen) or doctors. These are all dominant men in one way or another. Almost all women want men who are taller than them, are more intelligent or make more money. They want them to be confident and assertive, basically have qualities associated with leadership. They want men to ask them out and take charge in the relationship. Most women also love being dominated in bed, many times taking it to pretty scary extremes. Women love voting for male politicians and prefer male bosses to female ones.

    Pretty much every quality associated with the ''perfect man'' (as described by most women) screams dominance, whether it's related to social status, personality or physical features .
    Eh... I know a lot of women and almost all of them are attracted to sensitive metrosexual men. True, they do favour taller men, but most of the women I know (at least the younger ones) prefer men who are tall but lean rather than heavily muscled. Rock stars today are a far cry from the typical "alpha" male of old. In fact, I can't remember a time when the rock stars who were attracting the most women weren't pretty boys.

    As far as intelligence goes, most people (regardless of gender, sexual orientation, etc) go for partners who are equally intelligent to themselves.

    Women like rich men like men like beautiful women, and I don't imagine that will ever change, though there are always exceptions to the rule.

    My female friends are a pretty even mix of doms and subs. I'd say that males and females are both about 50/50 as far as the number of doms and subs go, but I'm just speaking from experience in my little BDSM niche community.

    I don't know what women you're talking to, but most of the ones I know micromanage their relationships and definitely wouldn't want their partners taking control of the relationship. Healthy relationships share power evenly.

    Loads of women I know have also said that they wish they were allowed to ask men out without seeming desperate or 'loose'. It's not so much a matter of what women prefer as what is expected of women (that they wait to be asked out).

    I have NEVER in my life met a woman who wanted more Y chromosomes in government. Look at Hilary Clinton-- the people who campaigned hardest for her were women. Most women would rather have a women in office.

    As far as bosses go, as a man I don't have a preference either way and I don't imagine women do either. If anything, you would think women would prefer female bosses because female bosses would be less inclined to hit on them.

    TL;DR: Women are no different to men: they are people too. About half of both men and women are dominant, and about half of both men and women are submissive.
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    'Many women these days get to 30 then marry out of desperation (biological clock, social pressure etc), so most of them are forced to choose a man they wouldn't have spat on if he was on fire 5-10 years earlier. The desirable men are few and far between (and probably taken) so most women simply have to ''settle''. And that's why the divorce rate is so high and the majority of it is initiated by women.'

    Yet it's young marriages that fail the most, so that can't be right.

    And, marriage as an institution, is generally much less popular, maybe because it stands for a relationship which is unequal in many people's eyes.

    BTW, as for women not asking men out I believe one of my many cousins did and proposed to her husband in the 1960s - ditto another in 1970s.
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    I can't speak for all women and...to be honest, I don't want to. But me myself, sometimes I fantasize about that romance novel cover guy, sure. Fantasies don't necessarily mean it's what someone wants in life, because often our fantasies do not accommodate who we really are. Hence...fantasies. But in general I notice for men and women mostly no one falls in love with someone who matches their fantasy figure. That's the power of the fantasy. Also dominate and being a leader are not the same. Dominate means the other person just can't do a thing for trying. And in this day and age in the West I feel women wear the breeches anyway. Look closely.
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    Women are only submissive during sex because of certain submissive circuits wired to the arousal part of the brain by nature. Not all women have the submissive circuit wired to their arousal part of the brain, but most do. Most men have the dominant circuit wired to the arousal part of the brain as well, but not all. So during sex, yes, women may like to be dominated and submit to their male partners, and men may like to dominate and make their female partner submit to them, but this is the only example women being naturally submissive, or men being naturally dominant. Women generally are sexually submissive because of this phenomenon making them attracted to dominant males: tall, muscular, high social class, ETC. Otherwise, in that, any other examples of women being naturally submissive is society molding them that way. Society is partly still living in the caveman times where women were socially submissive because of their inferior physical strength, and men were dominant because of their superior physical strength. Back in the caveman times, physical strength was of intelligence today. So men ruled and lead women because they had physical strength, and women depended on men to survive. Nowadays physical strength isn't valued like intelligence is. And unlike the inequality of men and women's physical bodies, intelligence in both sexes is equal! Men are not smarter than women, and women are not smarter than men! But we still live by caveman standards where men ruled, and women submitted, so we teach women to be submissive. As soon as females are born we teach them to submit to men, subconsciously through movies, tv shows, songs, school/education, societal standards/norms, religions, and even through our language (the way we address each other, slang, how we offend and insult each other ETC...)! And through these same media outlets do we teach men to be dominant. so no, women are not naturally submissive to men, unless you're talking sexual, that's probably why you see so many feminists with rape fantasies.
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    The natural biological state of women is to be submissive to men that they value.
 
 
 
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