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Ways in which men are oppressed in the UK. Watch

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    (Original post by noobynoo)
    1: Child custody heavily biased in favour of women.
    Obviously. How can a man breast feed a baby?
    2: No support for male victims of domestic violence.
    There is. But lets face it women don't rape men so much.
    3: Discrimination in prison system, with men more likely to be jailed and serve longer sentences.
    90% of murderers are men.
    4: 84% of all homeless people are men.
    99% of prostitutes are women.
    5: Men more likely to commit suicide than women.
    How is that discrimination?
    6: 96% of work related fatalities are men.
    100% of pregnancy related fatalities are women.
    7: Being told to 'man up' and not complain when they dare to speak up about anti-male discrimination.
    Man up. Stop complaining about anti-male discrimination.
    This is one of the most idiotic replies I have ever seen. Lord knows how it got 3 reps
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    You mention the men's rights movement. However this thread is not about the men's rights movement.
    It's clearly using their rhetoric verbatim.

    In fact it has nothing to do with MRAs.
    The bit where I mentioned them had complete relevance to what is being discussed.

    You quite clearly have not read the rest of the thread where you will find the sources and information which you are looking for.
    Because I'm CLEARLY going to read through 4 pages for sources that could easily be included on the op. I asked for like 2 source, it's not hard to post 2 links.

    But more to the point as you have brought up feminism, do you not think that these issues brought up should be a feminist issue?
    Suicide is covered by mental health charities.
    Work place death is covered by labor unions and reform advocates.
    Gender roles are diminished by feminist and liberal in general progression.
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    (Original post by Miss Ann Dairy)
    Suicide is covered by mental health charities.
    Work place death is covered by labor unions and reform advocates.
    Gender roles are diminished by feminist and liberal in general progression.
    If the statistics were reversed feminists would be all over these subjects like flies to hot ****.

    Quite often the reason women attempt suicide is a cry for help so others around them can see that they are struggling with life but do not feel they have the strength to tell anyone. They are aware that there are people that love them and want to help them but don't know how to get that help. This is not the case for most men. Men feel as if there is no other solution to their problem and that nobody can help them and nobody loves them. The suicide rate for men is 3 times higher than that for women and has been for a long time. The general social structure that we see today also does not improve the outlook that men have on the world. Men are seen as weak for showing their emotions and therefore don't show their emotions until it is too late. They are not encouraged to speak about the problems they are having and from a young age are told that "boy don't cry" and "man up". Whereas for women this is completely. Women are encouraged to show their emotions and the express how they feel. If we truly want equality which I'm sure you are in favor of surely this issue needs to be addressed as an area of serious concern.

    Now, on to work place deaths. Does it not worry you that 96% of the workplace fatalities (Source:http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/tables/index.htm) were men. Why is it that men are working dangerous jobs than women? Surely we should have a 50/50 split of gender for these dangerous jobs as that would be equality. That would be a public outcry if 96% of workplace fatalities were women, but somehow men are more "disposable" than women. Surely something should be done about this?

    These issues are about equality and should be addressed by feminism. Because feminism promotes equality for both men and women. Apparently.
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    If the statistics were reversed feminists would be all over these subjects like flies to hot ****.
    You mean women's rights groups would covers things that harmed women? Omg, stop the presses.

    Quite often the reason women attempt suicide is a cry for help so others around them can see that they are struggling with life but do not feel they have the strength to tell anyone. They are aware that there are people that love them and want to help them but don't know how to get that help. This is not the case for most men.
    Source



    Men feel as if there is no other solution to their problem and that nobody can help them and nobody loves them. The suicide rate for men is 3 times higher than that for women and has been for a long time.
    Statistics indicate that males die much more often by means of suicide than do females; however, reported suicide attempts and thoughts are much more common among females than males.[3][4]



    The general social structure that we see today also does not improve the outlook that men have on the world. Men are seen as weak for showing their emotions and therefore don't show their emotions until it is too late.
    Those are things called strict gender roles. Which the west in general have become way less strict with men acting more "feminine" becoming a lot more acceptable than it used to be.

    They are not encouraged to speak about the problems they are having and from a young age are told that "boy don't cry" and "man up".
    You're telling me things I already know about as if gender roles are news to me. :rolleyes:


    Women are encouraged to show their emotions and the express how they feel.
    No women are seen as weak and emotional and therefore acting like that is acting like a girl. :rolleyes:

    If we truly want equality which I'm sure you are in favor of surely this issue needs to be addressed as an area of serious concern.
    It called gender roles, people have been fighting them for quite some time.

    Now, on to work place deaths. Does it not worry you that 96% of the workplace fatalities (Source:http://www.hse.gov.uk/statistics/tables/index.htm) were men.
    No it makes sense given the job risks.

    Why is it that men are working dangerous jobs than women?
    Traditional physical labour and natural biological strength.
    Oh I forgot you only want to be practical and acknowledge biological differences when it gives you an advantage right.

    Surely we should have a 50/50 split of gender for these dangerous jobs as that would be equality.
    Surely men should be getting raped just as much in society. Do you seriously expect people to promote females taking high risk jobs so they can die equally? Instead of you know, making the workplace safer for anyone no matter their gender, and fighting with labour unions and workplace rights? What are you on about?:rolleyes:


    That would be a public outcry if 96% of workplace fatalities were women
    You have no way of knowing that. :rolleyes:
    What would this public outcry for men achieve exactly? Are they all going to stop working? No they want protections and safety measures which UNIONS already fight for, what are you not getting? This topic is already covered by people WHO ACTUALLY CARE. :rolleyes:


    , but somehow men are more "disposable" than women. Surely something should be done about this?
    No they are not more disposable, nothing you've provided proves such a thing. You also omit any mention of class and race factors in these jobs, who's doing these dangerous jobs? Middle class? No, it's jsut as simple as society hates men, right.

    These issues are about equality and should be addressed by feminism.
    By your logic any issue where the statistic isn't 50/50 should be addressed by feminism. That's quite of lot of work given the low number of us.

    If only men dominated society and still do and had power positions giving them a voice to address these issues. OH WAIT.

    The issues of gender roles ARE addressed by feminism. You're clearly not very well read.

    The issues of work place deaths and mental health are addressed directly by labour unions and charities.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8117278.stm

    Workplace deaths are not that common here, they are actually at a low. So why aren't you happy about this improvement?
    The information in this document relates to the latest 'full-year' statistics on fatal injuries in the workplace, for 2013/14.

    • The provisional figure for the number of workers fatally injured in 2013/14 is 133, and corresponds to a rate of fatal injury of 0.44 deaths per 100 000 workers.
    • The figure of 133 worker deaths in 2013/14 is 19% lower than the average for the past five years (164). The latest rate of fatal injury of 0.44 compares to the five-year average rate of 0.56.
    • The finalised figure for 2012/13 is 150 worker fatalities, and corresponds to a rate of 0.51 deaths per 100 000 workers.
    • Due to the fluctuation of recent years, it is currently too early to confirm a further stepped improvement in fatality rates.
    • There were 70 members of the public fatally injured in accidents connected to work in 2013/14 (excluding railways-related incidents).


    Because feminism promotes equality for both men and women. Apparently.
    Men aren't oppressed because of their gender. Women have been throughout history and still are in many places globally. Hence why feminism a movement founded to fight for WOMEN'S rights, because men already had them, focuses on women. How about you mobilise and attempt to help a labor union instead of just pretending to care so you can try and find a reason to bash feminism. You couldn't come across as any less genuine here, you don't really care about these issues hence why nobody takes you seriously. If you want to talk about workplace deaths, feminism in not the context anyone seriously concerned would be placing them in. You're clearly using these unfortunate deaths to frame them in an agenda filled drivel as opposed to mobilising people to help you'd rather sit on an internet forum bashing feminism for the most laughable reasons and then wonder why no one's doing anything about this.
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    Neither gender are oppressed in the UK. Discriminated against, sure.
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    (Original post by Miss Ann Dairy)
    Succeed at it, women attempt is in equal numbers. )
    Completely different psychological causes. Also anyone would agree committing suicide is worse than attempting suicide.

    Farrell raised a good point supported by other studies.

    People who attempt suicide usually do so as a cry out for help or attention but do actually believe there is someone to take notice if they attempt to take their own life. Thus taking pills, hanging etc.

    Those who commit suicide usually do so as they feel like there's no point in existing, they have failed or they have no-one to support them or take notice. Thus jumping off bridges, carbon monoxide poisoning etc.
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    (Original post by Miss Ann Dairy)
    ...
    You keep saying that feminism is female rights group. However the ethos behind feminism is gender equality. That means they fight for equality of both genders, men and women. Not just women. Are you saying that feminism is just for women?
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    The severe lack of shelter for men who are victims of domestic abuse. There are thousands for women, but only a handful for men. Men are just as likely to be a victim of domestic abuse as women, yet they receive little to no support. There 33 shelters for me, of which 18 are gay only. However there are around 4,000 for women.
    I'm sorry you what now? over 90% of domestic violence crimes are against women, so no it's not "just as likely"
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    No-one is oppressed. It's the UK not China.
    All very well saying that but in the face of legislation that discriminates against males, it is hardly a supportable statement.
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    (Original post by NancyRoseC)
    I'm sorry you what now? over 90% of domestic violence crimes are against women, so no it's not "just as likely"
    That was a mistype the correct statistic was for married men. 3.4% of married women reported domestic abuse, which is the same as the statistic of men. It is obviously higher in all other areas of heterosexual relationships.
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    (Original post by NancyRoseC)
    I'm sorry you what now? over 90% of domestic violence crimes are against women, so no it's not "just as likely"
    Oh dear, another 'student' who parrots what feminists say without checking on the data first.
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    (Original post by Darien)
    Oh dear, another 'student' who parrots what feminists say without checking on the data first.
    I know, it's all too common :/

    The stats also differ country to country. I think it was sweden who had 50-55% of all cases had men being the victim.

    Also the stats seem to show that out of non married couples women are slightly more likely of suffering domestic violence.

    With married couples it goes from almost the same in terms of domestic violence but married men do seem to suffer more domestic abuse (aka controlling and non violent abusive behaviour).
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    (Original post by Darien)
    Oh dear, another 'student' who parrots what feminists say without checking on the data first.
    I'm sorry, i genuinely don't want to be offensive, I was reading from somewhere else which says:

    "Women are much more likely than men to be victimized by a current or former intimate partner.5Women are 84 percent of spouse abuse victims and 86 percent of victims of abuse at the hands of a boyfriend or girlfriend and about three-fourths of the persons who commit family violence are male"

    (
    http://www.futureswithoutviolence.org/content/action_center/detail/754)
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    (Original post by Darien)
    Oh dear, another 'student' who parrots what feminists say without checking on the data first.
    and here
    http://www.ncadv.org/files/DomesticV...(National).pdf

    85% of domestic violence victims are women

    But I guess all sources are different :/
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    (Original post by Darien)
    Oh dear, another 'student' who parrots what feminists say without checking on the data first.
    ps, why is "student" in speech marks? I'm most definitely a student, no doubt about that
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    (Original post by NancyRoseC)
    ps, why is "student" in speech marks? I'm most definitely a student, no doubt about that
    Because, strictly speaking, a student is someone who studies.

    Simply repeating what other people have said about something is not studying: it is parroting.
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    Before I get to some of the better points you make

    (Original post by imtelling)
    Men are [...] forced to pay punitive costs to support the children they are not allowed to see -- payments which, a lot of the time at least, will be squandered on the mothers latest hair do or girls holiday away to Magaluf.
    That's just absolute bull****. Total and utter *******s right to the core of it. Maybe some 0.00001% do this. If a mother is in receipt of money from the father then it's almost certainly because she needs it to support the child. And what do you propose to do, not pay the costs? That punishes the child, not the mother, because the reality is that most mothers do not squander this money.

    The thing is a lot of the issues you identify are very valid. Others aren't. For example the one I mentioned just a moment ago, as well as your point about the White Feather Movement; the White Feather Movement was not tied to feminism. It was done by women, yes, but not by feminists. It wouldn't even be internally consistent with feminist ideology and analysis to be a part of that movement in the first place.

    You don't do it in this post, you may do in another post in this thread but I don't have the time or energy to read every post in this thread, but most of the users who make similar arguments as you did in your first post then go on to argue that feminism is the cause of these issues. Even if you don't, others have done in this thread so I'll go ahead and take a few minutes to demolish that argument here.

    Most of the problems raised here are a result of gender roles. For example when you say child custody is biased in favour of women: Absolutely it is, because women are seen as mothers first and foremost (and people and/or workers second) while men are seen as the primary breadwinners, which in turn explains your other point about child support. In regards to male victims of domestic violence (an issue I'm particularly passionate about) and the high suicide rate, again that's a result of gender roles: men are expected to be tough, resilient, to bottle up their emotions, to not express themselves, to seek help, to show weakness or let the cracks show. When men step outside of that gender role and do those things, when men do come forward to police about domestic violence for example, they are mocked and told they are being pussies or some such term. This is what you talk about when you say "Being told to 'man up' and not complain when they dare to speak up about anti-male discrimination." Again: Gender roles. They are not fulfilling the gender role society says men are supposed to play.

    When we talk about the view of men as expendable, which obviously links in with your other point about workplace fatalities, you can again place this firmly in patriarchal gender roles about pre-conceived notions about how men and women are and how they ought to each behave. Again looking at this from a gender role perspective: Women are fragile little flowers incapable of hard labour, and it would be undignified for them do so, and anyway they ought really to be at home cooking, cleaning, or making babies. They can't be operating machinery and being housewives, after all.

    And when we talk about the number of workplace deaths being unbalanced gender-wise, that's because men take a disproportionate amount of the dangerous jobs. And that's not because women don't want to take them: for example discrimination against women in the construction industry (one of the major industries where workplace deaths happen) is well-documented (See here, here, or here, for example) This is partially again gender roles: women are weak and incompetent and unable to perform manly work like construction because we need manly men to do men work.

    And gender roles are pretty much the central thing feminism attacks. Feminists reject pre-conceived notions about how men and women 'ought' to behave; that women 'should' be housewives, that men 'should' be the stoic breadwinner. The feminist view is that every man and woman has a right to decide for themselves what they want for themselves and that society and others have no right to decide for us.

    The solution to the problems caused by gender roles is not more gender roles as 'Mens Rights' supporters so often advocate. It's the total elimination of gender roles and addressing many of the other wider problems raised by a feminist analysis of society. The solution is more feminism, not less.
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    (Original post by imtelling)
    Lets start with child custody:

    Men are tremendously discriminated against in family courts. Women win 93% of child custody battles, and despite having hardly any visiting rights, are also forced to pay punitive costs to support the children they are not allowed to see -- payments which, a lot of the time at least, will be squandered on the mothers latest hair do or girls holiday away to Magaluf.

    Would like to hear some more examples?


    Ways in which men are oppressed in the uk:
    ----------------------------------------------------
    ( will edit list when new suggestions come in )

    1: Child custody heavily biased in favour of women.

    2: No support for male victims of domestic violence.

    3: Discrimination in prison system, with men more likely to be jailed and serve longer sentences.

    4: 84% of all homeless people are men.

    5: Men more likely to commit suicide than women.

    6: 96% of work related fatalities are men.

    7: Being told to 'man up' and not complain when they dare to speak up about anti-male discrimination.

    8: Men have no anonymity if they are accused of rape, and so false rape allegations routinely ruin mens lives and careers.

    9: Divorce settlements are heavily discriminatory against men. Men are routinely ordered to hand over huge sums of their personal wealth, even to blatant gold diggers. ( see the Paul Mcarthy/Heather Mills settlement )

    10: Men are seen as expendable by society; during the First World War, for example, feminists tried to shame men into joining the army by calling them cowards. Google the 'white feather movement'

    11: Education system is female centric; focusing on teaching methods which cater to female strengths.

    12: Young boys natural boisterous behaviour is considered a mental disorder, called ADHD. Boys are drugged for not acting like girls.

    13: Men are told they are losers and sexually deficient if they dare speak up against the oppression which effects them.
    I think Discrimination would be a better word than Oppression.


    NIGHT LIFE
    Most nightlife is catered towards women with many women being allowed in for free.
    women are also favoured for the music tastes. the dress code. racial discrimination (for example there some racist club door policies that would allow women of colour in but not men of colour). if the club is close to being full with capacity women will be allowed in still whilst men are thrown away.

    Radio
    Music that is considered "angry young man music" favoured by male audiences is marginalised.

    When men are treated with suspicion around children when women are not.

    Men do not get free stuff in the same way women do for just being attractive.

    "Women and children first!" men are less valuable.

    Women have women only scholarships. men do not.

    Mens feelings never have to be considered. women's feelings always must be considered.

    Men work longer and die younger.

    Men do all the hard labour. Every Brick you see is there because a man put it there.

    Men receive no support to be stay at home dads. they are penalised for it.

    Men dont have access to contraceptive pills.

    Mens Cancer's are taken Less seriously than females.

    Toilets. Women's toilets are open for longer in shopping centres.

    no one is expected to care about men. everyone is expected to care about women.

    Men are always held accountable for their behaviour. they can never blame anything on hormones or anything else for that matter.

    Mens masculinity can be taken into question. womens femininity cannot.

    Men are punished for flirting in the work place. women are not.

    We are told genital mutilation for men is a health benefit whereas FGM is campaigned against irrelevant of its attack on 3rd world indigenous peoples traditions.

    Men are expected to defend themselves. women are not

    there is no support for male rape victims

    when women sexually assault men it is considered funny by society.

    men have to meet set standards in the military. special exceptions on physical performances are made for women who choose to join and are not capable.

    Statutory rape of men is rarely taken seriously

    Violence against men is considered acceptable by society.

    when men are assaulted by women in public society finds it funny.

    society considers men to blame for the actions of women.

    other than anger. all other emotions of men are discouraged. and even anger is discouraged now.

    sexism is considered not applicable to men.

    men cannot call for help in a fight. especially if they start it. women can.

    it is considered a bad thing for men to be together in a group and are often associated with criminal behaviour.
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    (Original post by noobynoo)
    1: Child custody heavily biased in favour of women.
    Obviously. How can a man breast feed a baby?
    with baby formula. most girls use it nowadays because they favour their breasts cosmetic appeal over their babies development.

    (Original post by noobynoo)
    2: No support for male victims of domestic violence.
    There is. But lets face it women don't rape men so much.
    there is a difference between domestic violence and rape.
    domestic violence is much more common than rape.

    (Original post by noobynoo)
    3: Discrimination in prison system, with men more likely to be jailed and serve longer sentences.
    90% of murderers are men.
    you have not debunked or provided a valid argument against this statement. this is not even a counter argument.

    (Original post by noobynoo)
    4: 84% of all homeless people are men.
    99% of prostitutes are women.
    once again. not a counter argument.

    but you could argue that men are also discriminated against in the sex industry by not having enough demand to provide them with jobs in the sex industry.

    (Original post by noobynoo)
    5: Men more likely to commit suicide than women.
    How is that discrimination?
    the fact is not discriminating in itself but it is evidence of discrimination

    (Original post by noobynoo)
    6: 96% of work related fatalities are men.
    100% of pregnancy related fatalities are women.
    men cannot get pregnant.
    women can work.


    (Original post by noobynoo)
    7: Being told to 'man up' and not complain when they dare to speak up about anti-male discrimination.
    Man up. Stop complaining about anti-male discrimination.
    you've just proved the OP's point.
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    (Original post by NancyRoseC)
    ps, why is "student" in speech marks? I'm most definitely a student, no doubt about that
    He is being harsh, assuming that you are taught critical thinking. You have to 1. check the sources, the PDF files, which refer to 'family' cases.
    Be wary of media propaganda http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKXVcUSBKH4

    2. Data should be directly quotable from Govt. sources.
    UK: Office of national Stats (ONS) latest figures showed 39:61 M:F ratio, year before that was 40:60. Next year's figures could be 35:65 because... legal funding has been cut, unless DV is involved.
    DV sometimes falsely, is used as a bargaining tool by women during
    divorce/child visitation & men less likely to report skews data. (stats in Mankind)

    In USA in 2010, men were the majority of DV (called IPV in USA) in Govt stats; so this was researched & published in a journal. Won't attach pdf so linked
    http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...ls_of_Advocacy
    Edit:
    WRT to "Women are 84 percent of spouse abuse victims and 86 percent of victims of abuse at the hands of a boyfriend or girlfriend" Following the data at your futureswithoutviolence links to http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvs02.pdf. On P15 of 25, table 2.3 we can see 84.3% spouse & 85.9% for Female. It is a subset where looking at the TOTALS for Family & NonFamily member victims = 54.9% & 58.4% for males.
    Hence not showing full info misleads. Like saying 75% of a univerity's STEM classes are male - "muhsojiny", ignoring that men are only 40% of the total at Uni.

    (Original post by imtelling)
    ...
    Surprised no one has mentioned the right to choose to be circumcised, like girls.

    Also Battered Wife Syndrome as a defence for murder. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6s7V3gm__8 "Can you imagine a man getting an award for killing a woman?" wrt Kiranjit Ahluwalia for setting husband on fire.

    Some more ideas here http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism...ne-or-does-he/
 
 
 
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