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Should parents be fined for taking kids on holiday? Watch

  • View Poll Results: : Should Parents be fined?
    Yes
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    No
    68.75%

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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    I think that there should be some discretion. If it is to visit a major cultural event or especially an elderly or sick relative then not, if it's to sit on a Spanish beach then yes. And double fines if you have ever said anything nice in public about Michael Gove.
    I think for the first two the school would grant you permission anyway. We went to India for 3 weeks for my grandad's funeral, we rang them on our way to the airport and never had any issues.
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    (Original post by sophie !)
    The real question is: if the mother of the schoolchild has a terminal illness and they want to relax and have family time on holiday together before the time comes, should they be fined?

    This is my friend's scenario.
    I definitely think that should be allowed, if I were the mother I'd do it anyway tbh. Having final moments with your children/mother who won't be present are precious, and should definitely qualify as a mitigating scenario. And if my mother was on her deathbed I doubt I'd be attending school anyway.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    ... What?

    Holidays are neither a right nor a privilege. You have the freedom to go on holiday if you can afford to, which even people on low incomes can if they plan it right (there was a BBC documentary on very cheap holidays sometime this week). That is all.
    But to say that the only time you can go on holiday is during term time because it's cheaper is a lie. If you spend, say, £500 per year on a holiday because that's all you have and thus have to go during term to go where you want you should either:
    a) actually make sure the child does the work they miss
    b) go somewhere cheaper
    c) go less frequently
    "It's the only time I can afford to go" is not a justification. Personally, given the choice between two cheap holidays a year and one "good" holiday every other year, I would take less frequent and better.
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    (Original post by Tyrion_Lannister)
    No. It's not the states business really.

    My parents always used to take me out of school to go on holiday and they would have just payed the fine, because they have the same attitude as me "who are they to tell me what to do"

    I'd say it is the state's business to ensure children get a proper education, it's a legal requirement and the school has essentially been employed to enable it, and parents do not have the right to take that away.
    That said, I think it's a judgement call - if the child is clearly doing well at school nonetheless and is getting a good education it's fine, but if the child is struggling, doesn't really want to go etc and falling further behind as a result the school needs to intervene.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    But to say that the only time you can go on holiday is during term time because it's cheaper is a lie. If you spend, say, £500 per year on a holiday because that's all you have and thus have to go during term to go where you want you should either:
    a) actually make sure the child does the work they miss
    b) go somewhere cheaper
    c) go less frequently
    "It's the only time I can afford to go" is not a justification. Personally, given the choice between two cheap holidays a year and one "good" holiday every other year, I would take less frequent and better.
    They don't really need to justify it to you. Maybe they want to take their kids somewhere nicer than they would be able to if they went in the school holidays. Or, maybe they just don't care about their children's education, in which case, in all likelihood, missing a couple of weeks of school will be the least of the child's problems. These are inevitably parental decisions.

    Also, if you're leaving your option (a) open to parents I don't see your reasoning for supporting fines of people who take their kids out of school. Should they just be fined if their kids' performance suffers? If so, why shouldn't they be fined for failing to spur their kids on to do well at school in the normal course of events, or to keep their kids from becoming obese, or any number of other parental failings?
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    They don't really need to justify it to you. Maybe they want to take their kids somewhere nicer than they would be able to if they went in the school holidays. Or, maybe they just don't care about their children's education, in which case, in all likelihood, missing a couple of weeks of school will be the least of the child's problems. These are inevitably parental decisions.

    Also, if you're leaving your option (a) open to parents I don't see your reasoning for supporting fines of people who take their kids out of school. Should they just be fined if their kids' performance suffers? If so, why shouldn't they be fined for failing to spur their kids on to do well at school in the normal course of events, or to keep their kids from becoming obese, or any number of other parental failings?
    I don't support fines for taking them out of school, I support fining them for neglecting their child's education.
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    (Original post by blue n white army)
    Yes.

    The school should be allowed to use its discretion to authorise (or not) absences. Time off for funerals, weddings and other family events would count as authorised absences (i always thought schools were quite accommodating with this sort of thing, no?

    If it's an unauthorised absence then yes they should be fined. If I just don't turn up for work without permission then I wouldn't get paid and face punishment. It should be no different in schools.

    How would you feel if a teacher just turned round and said "i won't be in to teach your kids next week cos i'm going to magaluf", I know i get six weeks off at summer but it's cheaper to go now" there'd be outrage.

    Taking holidays in term time is not allowed and parents who are outraged by being fined need to get over there sense of self-entitlement.



    Finally, on a more personal level, I book a holiday before the holidays hoping to get a bit of piece and quiet before the school holidays and it's full of kids who shouldnt be there.
    Some schools are accommodating, others not so much - did you not see someone post about her friend wanting time off for a last holiday with her terminally ill mother before she passes away?
    School is not work and taking away payment is not equal to a fine. You are paid to work,and if you do not provide the service you don't get the payment. Very, very different to a fine for school, which no one is being paid to attend.
    Also, a lot of them may be private school kids who finished early, if you're going shortly before holidays.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I don't support fines for taking them out of school, I support fining them for neglecting their child's education.
    But, again, why should parents be fined for this particular failure of parenting, but not others? Really, this is their own business. The state cannot raise people's kids for them.

    Further, what constitutes 'neglect' of the child's education? What if they take them out of school, and do some work with them, but don't fully catch their kids up? What if they take them out of school for a couple of weeks, and don't catch the child up at all, but the child does well at school anyway? How involved are you willing to become in people's home lives to see just what the educational environment is, and then how do you decide whether the environment merits a fine (do you really want to give just some guy in a school a massive discretion to fine any parents he wants to?)? How practicable do you think it is to be come sufficiently involved in people's home lives? Maybe you think the power should be reserved for extreme cases, so it will be obvious when it is proper to implement a fine -- in that case, surely taking a child out for a couple of weeks, even if it's a couple of weeks a couple of times a year, and not catching the child up properly, is not over the line?

    My suggestion is that this is unworkable and overreaching the state's proper role. The parenting has to be left to the parents.
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    (Original post by joker12345)
    Some schools are accommodating, others not so much - did you not see someone post about her friend wanting time off for a last holiday with her terminally ill mother before she passes away?
    School is not work and taking away payment is not equal to a fine. You are paid to work,and if you do not provide the service you don't get the payment. Very, very different to a fine for school, which no one is being paid to attend.
    Also, a lot of them may be private school kids who finished early, if you're going shortly before holidays.
    I agree they should be more accommodating in those sorts of circumstances. However the majority of people wanting to go on holiday in term time aren't doing it because of these legitimate reasons.

    No you aren't being paid to attend correct however the government/tax payer is paying for you to receive 190 days of education per year. If you decide not to turn up for 10 of those because you want a holiday then you should have a financial punishment i.e. pay some money back.
    Further more attending school is a legal requirement if you don't attend you'vee broken the law and deserve a fine. Doesn't matter if you don't agree with the law.
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    I reckon it depends on the situation...but to be honest, most parents either just lie and get away with it nowadays, or just pay the fine, because the savings made from not paying soooo much more for the holiday during peak times is much larger than the cost of paying the fine.
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    TBH I think parents would just treat the fine as fee... there was research done on fining parents for late collection of kids from nursery - turned out to be much more effective to use shame on them...

    which is probably very baffling for economics students
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    (Original post by Alumna)
    Black n white answer because government doesn't really care about reasons.

    I think they shouldn't be fine because it's the parent responsibility n choice. If their child suffers then they will face future consequences

    But it should be a fine or be made illegal

    No!
    NO

    It is the parents responsibility - that is all.
    Parents have a responsibility to ensure that their kids are educated. Having a responsibility does not mean they have an equal and opposite right. As such they do not have a right to behave in a way which breaches the duties imposed by their responsibility.

    Also

    If the child suffers it would be the child who faces future consequences, not the parents.
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    Parents should prevented from doing this preferably by punishment (deterrent) but if necessary by absolute enforcement which they cannot simply ignore.
    A fine is not appropriate as its determinant/preventative effect is inversely proportional to the parents wealth.

    If fines are used
    The poor parents will be prevented from going on holiday during term time (assuming they can afford a holiday at all).
    The middle income parents will be deterred but could still choose to go on holiday during term time.
    The rich parents will have no deterrent against term time holidays at all.

    A range of punishments ranging from community service to custodial sentences would provide equal deterrent for most parents.

    Most school pupils understand the importance of education and know what they are currently doing so schools could encourage them to choose not to go on holiday with their parents.
    If the kid wont go to the airport then there wont be a holiday for him and that is the absolute end of the matter. (if the parents decide to go on their own and leave the kid behind they would risk neglect charges)

    Now I realize that most primary schools kids would not choose school over a holiday, But GCSE and even pre-GCSE kids who actually take education seriously would be likely to decide not to jeopardize their grades for a holiday so it seams that the times when this is most likely to be successful are the times when it actually does matter.
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    I fully support the fines except in exceptional circumstances e.g. funerals/weddings. Kids already get a minimum of 13 weeks off a year, if holidays in the summer are too expensive then there are half terms, christmas and easter which can be used for holidays. Holidays are a privilege not a right and as has been pointed out its disruptive for teachers and teaching assistants to have to repeat things for the class or spent time helping the kid who missed something rather than being able to help those who are struggling.
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    (Original post by megaman70)
    Parents should prevented from doing this preferably by punishment (deterrent) but if necessary by absolute enforcement which they cannot simply ignore.
    A fine is not appropriate as its determinant/preventative effect is inversely proportional to the parents wealth.

    If fines are used
    The poor parents will be prevented from going on holiday during term time (assuming they can afford a holiday at all).
    The middle income parents will be deterred but could still choose to go on holiday during term time.
    The rich parents will have no deterrent against term time holidays at all.

    A range of punishments ranging from community service to custodial sentences would provide equal deterrent for most parents.

    Most school pupils understand the importance of education and know what they are currently doing so schools could encourage them to choose not to go on holiday with their parents.
    If the kid wont go to the airport then there wont be a holiday for him and that is the absolute end of the matter. (if the parents decide to go on their own and leave the kid behind they would risk neglect charges)

    Now I realize that most primary schools kids would not choose school over a holiday, But GCSE and even pre-GCSE kids who actually take education seriously would be likely to decide not to jeopardize their grades for a holiday so it seams that the times when this is most likely to be successful are the times when it actually does matter.
    When I was in primary school I refused to let my parents take me out apparently! Obviously the parents have the final say but if children understand the importance (through discussions In school) them saying they don't want to miss school could affect the decision in a lot of cases. It will also help encourage a responsible attitude to attendance which will hopefully stay with them in to adult life and carry on to their children.

    Xxx

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    (Original post by kpwxx)
    When I was in primary school I refused to let my parents take me out apparently! Obviously the parents have the final say but if children understand the importance (through discussions In school) them saying they don't want to miss school could affect the decision in a lot of cases. It will also help encourage a responsible attitude to attendance which will hopefully stay with them in to adult life and carry on to their children.

    Xxx

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    No parents do not have the final say.

    If the kid does not want to go somewhere with his parents then they do not have any legal power to make the kid go - Parents can and have been prosecuted for kidnapping their own children!
    On a similar note there is no law in English law which gives parents general control of their kids.

    If the kid refuses to go on holiday then that is the end of the matter - This should have been obvious.

    BTW, why would you consider it to be "obvious" that the parents have the final say?
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    (Original post by megaman70)
    No parents do not have the final say.

    If the kid does not want to go somewhere with his parents then they do not have any legal power to make the kid go - Parents can and have been prosecuted for kidnapping their own children!
    On a similar note there is no law in English law which gives parents general control of their kids.

    If the kid refuses to go on holiday then that is the end of the matter - This should have been obvious.

    BTW, why would you consider it to be "obvious" that the parents have the final say?
    I don't know the law surrounding this in detail and won't claim to, but I can't see how it can possibly be illegal for parents to insist that their child goes somewhere. If this were not the case a child could hold their parent captive in their own house if they so wished. And what about babies... a baby cries indicating that it does not want to go to the supermarket. So that parent is kidnapping their own child?!

    Regardless, what I essentially meant is that a 5 year old saying 'I don't want to go on holiday' is unlikely to make the parents say 'Oh, we can't possibly go then!' - if they really want to they will still book the holiday and take their child, and no 5 year old I've met would go on to report their parents to the police for kidnapping. Young children go with their parents where they are told.

    However, this doesn't really relate to my point anyway, which was that I believe getting children to be more aware of the importance of good attendance could have a positive impact.
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    (Original post by megaman70)
    No parents do not have the final say.

    If the kid does not want to go somewhere with his parents then they do not have any legal power to make the kid go - Parents can and have been prosecuted for kidnapping their own children!
    On a similar note there is no law in English law which gives parents general control of their kids.

    If the kid refuses to go on holiday then that is the end of the matter - This should have been obvious.

    BTW, why would you consider it to be "obvious" that the parents have the final say?
    Parents have been prosecuted for going on holiday leaving kids 14yo and less home alone...

    prosecutions for kidnapping your own kids are usually after a divorce where the child is taken away from the parent with legal custody and smuggled abroad by the other parent.
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    (Original post by Joinedup)
    Parents have been prosecuted for going on holiday leaving kids 14yo and less home alone...

    prosecutions for kidnapping your own kids are usually after a divorce where the child is taken away from the parent with legal custody and smuggled abroad by the other parent.
    There is no such thing of custody of a child in England.
    In divorce cases you have residence orders and visitation orders.

    Residence means the child lives with you.
    Visitation does what the name implies and is for the parent who the child does not live with.
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    (Original post by kpwxx)
    I don't know the law surrounding this in detail and won't claim to, but I can't see how it can possibly be illegal for parents to insist that their child goes somewhere. If this were not the case a child could hold their parent captive in their own house if they so wished. And what about babies... a baby cries indicating that it does not want to go to the supermarket. So that parent is kidnapping their own child?!

    Regardless, what I essentially meant is that a 5 year old saying 'I don't want to go on holiday' is unlikely to make the parents say 'Oh, we can't possibly go then!' - if they really want to they will still book the holiday and take their child, and no 5 year old I've met would go on to report their parents to the police for kidnapping. Young children go with their parents where they are told.

    However, this doesn't really relate to my point anyway, which was that I believe getting children to be more aware of the importance of good attendance could have a positive impact.
    I have a Law degree
    This means i understand how the law itself works, and know a bit about the law in various areas.

    What you have described is a number of practical problems which could be caused.
    This is not how the law works at all and discussions about law cannot be held by virtue of such reasoning.

    The inverse of the things you have said are that if a parent is given control of his child, or is aloud to kidnap his child. Then the parents of a 17 year old could take that 17 year old old of the country by any amount of force necessary. Clearly this would be equally as absurd as your example involving babies - potentially more so because a 17 year ols is far more likely to be able to enforce legal action.
 
 
 
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