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#81
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#81
(Original post by Olderandwiser23)
But I'm not putting it in any other context, all I'm asking is why can't women go by their day, with out this threat?

All the other situations don't involve gender.


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What do you mean they don't involve gender? More men are killed than women are. More men are assaulted than women are. So how does that not involve gender?
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Olderandwiser23
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#82
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#82
(Original post by AdamCee)
Seriously. Overreaction to the max. Feminism isn't going to be able to turn every boy's mind into how they want to think, no matter how hard they try.

We need feminism cos according to you my two comparisons aren't suitable? This is my point. It's full of crappy reasons and excuses.

In school, we are (idk about anyone else but WE are) taught about misogyny, rape, consent, etc.

If someone chooses to ignore that advice, they're going to ignore that advice. I could spend the next 4 years having that drilled into me it's not going to make a difference.

Yeah - every woman should be able to wear whatever they want.
Every man should be able to walk into Manchester wearing a Liverpool shirt at 2am and sing Liverpool chants. Unfortunately, if they do, they will most likely end up in A&E. I would love to walk down a bad part of London and show off my brand new Rolex, but I can't. Cos it's stupid. And I'll likely get hurt.

There are bad people and you can either complain about them and argue about how horrible all men are and demand that they all change or you can accept that actually this is not something anyone has control over and while you can educate people there will ALWAYS be people who will wolf whistle, and make inappropriate comment and sometimes go as far as rape.
Yes there WILL always be bad people however as a feminist myself I would LOVE other men to stand up next to me (me being feminists) and say to all the men that do ignore the advice or are misogynists etc IT'S NOT OKAY. Power in numbers.

What we need is everyone to fight for equal rights and stop raping/abuse etc on all fronts.

Not telling women to alter their behaviour because boys will be boys and therefore will rape. It's gives all men a bad rep and makes women feel like getting raped is our fault


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kudzi.c
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#83
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#83
(Original post by EatAndRevise)
If a couple cannot afford to care for a child, they should make the conscience decision to not have a baby. An employer should not have to support everyone who wants to start a family. Companies cannot afford to fund all their female employers on maternity leave. If that were ever the case and if I were an employer, I would definitely make it a point to employ only males.
And if parental leave became law, meaning both parents shared one or two years worth of leave who would you employ then? Nobody?
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Olderandwiser23
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#84
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#84
(Original post by EatAndRevise)
What do you mean they don't involve gender? More men are killed than women are. More men are assaulted than women are. So how does that not involve gender?
Because those examples have always been the case (not that I'm condoning them!) but in a society that's meant to be equal why are women still getting raped?


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Olderandwiser23
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#85
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#85
(Original post by EatAndRevise)
If a couple cannot afford to care for a child, they should make the conscience decision to not have a baby. An employer should not have to support everyone who wants to start a family. Companies cannot afford to fund all their female employers on maternity leave. If that were ever the case and if I were an employer, I would definitely make it a point to employ only males.
This is ridiculous. Lol


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username1331498
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#86
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#86
(Original post by Olderandwiser23)
You said assault not murder.

And I would put the two on a par. Perhaps rape even slightly higher. Murder is horrific, but that person doesn't have to live with that psychological damage that rape has caused.

Also more men raped than women? Link to stats please as I highly doubt it!


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http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/men...-rape-victims/

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ped-than-women
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zippity.doodah
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#87
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#87
(Original post by Olderandwiser23)
Because women can't help being pregnant?
yes they can - it's called contraception

Everyone has the right to reproduce.
sure, but that doesn't mean everybody has a right to get paid for doing no work

Picture this: you have a wife you both work full time and you decide you want to have a family. You earn significantly less than her. Bingo wifeys pregnant.
is there really any point in using this kind of language? do you think that's going to "ease me up" here?

Awesome news right? Nah uh! She HAS to carry the baby and look after it/breast feed etc, she can't pass the buck to you, that's not how biology works unfortunately. She has to take time off work. Bummer. Now you're down one full (higher salary). No clothes for your baby now.
and what is your overall argument here? that she is objectively entitled to get paid by the employer of the job she wanted to leave for doing nothing within this time? I might concede to an arrangement of temporary leave whereby a person shouldn't be fired (because workers can be replaced, and substitutions can be arranged, albeit narrowly) but making the employer pay for her private choice? how is it their objective responsibility? :confused: where is this money coming from? it's certainly not coming from her own work

An employer should support everyone who wants to start a family, as everyone has the right to want to do that (or not:freedom of choice yay) and have a family work balance. If they didn't, then no one would be able to financially provide for a family.
yeah, I guess this is why civilisation collapsed before the maternity/paternity leave legislation...or did it? and also, you're assuming that the employer can afford these kinds of schemes - what if it would damage their company? what if multiple workers did this? they'd have to pay a fortune for unpaid work - on what grounds is this their burden to bear?

How else are people meant to start a family and pay for it?
many options:
1) child minders
2) family/friends helping out
3) accepting the consequences of her choice and trading the child for her job
4) surrogacy
5) husband working harder or spending less money when possible
6) not having a baby
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Olderandwiser23
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#88
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#88
(Original post by Jemner01)
It's not a matter of "the right to be pregnant" it's a matter of employer's choice to continue to pay a worker who isn't working. You're an advocate of freedom of choice yet deny the employer's freedom to choose not to pay a non-working worker (aka financial risk).
Because everyone has the right to start a family. And employers have a duty to ensure there is proper work/family/life balance.


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username1331498
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#89
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#89
(Original post by Olderandwiser23)
Because those examples have always been the case (not that I'm condoning them!) but in a society that's meant to be equal why are women still getting raped?


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What? Elaborate please.
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Hazzer2
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#90
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#90
Removal of lad culture such as dapper laughs (well done society for getting rid of him) would be a benefit to men. Makes me uncomfortable that my gender and age group is associated with that behaviour which I see as vile pathetic and also tragically embarrassing for the 'lad' exhibiting the behaviour
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Jemner01
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#91
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#91
(Original post by kudzi.c)
I do not believe all men are rapists or that all men should apologise for rapists. I just believe theres a lack of knowledge around the issue. The focus is on the legal system but we need to change cultures too because a law won't change much if it isn't enforced.
There is no such thing as "rape culture" which is what I assume you're getting at by saying "change in culture". I'd like to see proof of this lack of knowledge around the issue because besides feminists screaming it from the rooftops, the vast majority of men don't even commit crime and a fraction of those that do commit rape.
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username1331498
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#92
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#92
(Original post by Olderandwiser23)
This is ridiculous. Lol


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Using their brains is ridiculous?
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DiddyDec
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#93
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#93
Oh, this thread again.

Feminism has nothing to do with men. So why try and get men involved?
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zippity.doodah
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#94
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#94
(Original post by Olderandwiser23)
This is ridiculous. Lol


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why? what's wrong with living within one's means? what's wrong with being individually accountable for one's acts? if you want a baby you don't have to "pass the buck" as you said onto somebody who isn't even involved in their private life like the employer (or the government, obviously)
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Olderandwiser23
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#95
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#95
(Original post by zippity.doodah)
yes they can - it's called contraception



sure, but that doesn't mean everybody has a right to get paid for doing no work



is there really any point in using this kind of language? do you think that's going to "ease me up" here?



and what is your overall argument here? that she is objectively entitled to get paid by the employer of the job she wanted to leave for doing nothing within this time? I might concede to an arrangement of temporary leave whereby a person shouldn't be fired (because workers can be replaced, and substitutions can be arranged, albeit narrowly) but making the employer pay for her private choice? how is it their objective responsibility? :confused: where is this money coming from? it's certainly not coming from her own work



yeah, I guess this is why civilisation collapsed before the maternity/paternity leave legislation...or did it? and also, you're assuming that the employer can afford these kinds of schemes - what if it would damage their company? what if multiple workers did this? they'd have to pay a fortune for unpaid work - on what grounds is this their burden to bear?



many options:
1) child minders
2) family/friends helping out
3) accepting the consequences of her choice and trading the child for her job
4) surrogacy
5) husband working harder or spending less money when possible
6) not having a baby
You understand how much childminders cost yeah?

Family and friends? Who also work and have families-not gonna happen.

Trading the child for her job? wtf?

surrogacy? Most women want to carry their own child. It's not a lot to ask.

Husband working harder-sacrificing the work/family balance again.

Not have a baby-then no working woman would ever reproduce. And a lot of women work.


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Jemner01
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#96
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#96
(Original post by Olderandwiser23)
Because everyone has the right to start a family. And employers have a duty to ensure there is proper work/family/life balance.


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That first bit? No concern of the employer. What an employee does when not working is not under an employer's control. That last bit? No, they don't. They have an economical as well as legal duty to provide a wage and a legal duty to provide certain work environment standards. They do not and should not be forced to pay a worker for choices they make i.e. drop out of the workforce and become pregnant. An employer should not have to pay a worker for labour they're not even providing, because they're on maternity (or paternity for that matter) leave.
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kudzi.c
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#97
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#97
(Original post by Jemner01)
There is no such thing as "rape culture" which is what I assume you're getting at by saying "change in culture". I'd like to see proof of this lack of knowledge around the issue because besides feminists screaming it from the rooftops, the vast majority of men don't even commit crime and a fraction of those that do commit rape.
I guess that's your opinion and that's what I was out for in the first place. I wanted to understand where people are coming from. In all honesty we don't agree on much but I'm not out to convert you to feminism so we don't have to agree on anything
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kudzi.c
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#98
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#98
(Original post by DiddyDec)
Oh, this thread again.

Feminism has nothing to do with men. So why try and get men involved?
What makes you say it has nothing to do with men?
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DiddyDec
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#99
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#99
(Original post by kudzi.c)
What makes you say it has nothing to do with men?
Feminism - The advocacy of women's rights on the ground of equality of the sexes.

By definition feminism has nothing to do with men.
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Olderandwiser23
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#100
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#100
(Original post by EatAndRevise)
What? Elaborate please.
People kill people. Men kill men. Men kill women, women kill women. Women kill men.

Rape is a violation like no other. A physical over powering to get sexual gratification through fear and (sometimes) assault and murder.

And OfCourse in other instances eg in a relationship. It's all a power struggle to take something from a woman or man that s/he is meant to have sole control over.

Eg I have the right to control who touches me intimately or otherwise. A man taking that control from me, is vile.

Murder -well there's no sexual gratification there, no leaving physiological damage to that person (as they're dead). In rape the rapist goes out of his/her way to destroy that other person and take away the only single true power that a person has.


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