Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Congratulations to the Greek left! The movement against austerity.... watch

    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by anastas)
    It's Troika's fault Greece is in this mess and secondly of the Greek politicians who followed the austerity measures and said yes to the memorandum. The previous parties in charge-Panhellenic Socialist Movement (PASOK) and New Demorcracy (ND)-did nothing but destroying and shaming the country.

    Now, for the very first time, a Greek government says ''no, we won't accept this economic enslavement anymore'', SYRIZA are sticking to what is good for the people of Greece. Troika doesn't like that but that's not important. What's important is to do what is right.
    Sorry how is it the troikas fault that Greece overspent and overspent? PASOK & ND are the people to blame and because of their fiscal irresponsibility the Greek people will have to pay up.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MrJAKEE)
    Sorry how is it the troikas fault that Greece overspent and overspent?
    They aren't. But it is their fault that GDP has been thrashed, so debt:GDP is 50% higher than it was.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)



    Not how old Tory are loony left by today standards.
    Quite a funny diagram. Bit silly the way it condemns anyone genuinely left wing as 'loony' and of course it's nice to see Greens put down as New Loonies. :rolleyes:

    I see it in a more simple way. Pro-capitalism and anti-capitalism. Being anti doesn't mean you hate small businesses or the idea of differing pay rates or having to work for a living, but it does mean you don't believe the current economic model is viable in the long term and, increasingly, the short term.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Quite a funny diagram. Bit silly the way it condemns anyone genuinely left wing as 'loony' and of course it's nice to see Greens put down as New Loonies. :rolleyes:

    I see it in a more simple way. Pro-capitalism and anti-capitalism. Being anti doesn't mean you hate small businesses or the idea of differing pay rates or having to work for a living, but it does mean you don't believe the current economic model is viable in the long term and, increasingly, the short term.
    The terms left and right 'wing' are in themselves misused I think as they imply far left and far right, which in the current Parliament only UKIP comes close to fitting. What we have now is a collection of centrist parties in different coloured ties who have diluted their core values to try and win more votes from swing voters. The result is that the core voters from these parties end up disillusioned and vote elsewhere, for instance the impending destruction of Labour in Scotland by the SNP.




    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Quady)
    They aren't. But it is their fault that GDP has been thrashed, so debt:GDP is 50% higher than it was.
    Fair enough Greece should be allowed to forget about the bill it racked up and like Iceland go on like it never existed. The only reason things have not escalated is that the Germans are praying that they eventually get their money back and to do so Greece's membership of the euro zone is crucial.

    Greece is taking the piss.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Midlander)
    Fair enough Greece should be allowed to forget about the bill it racked up and like Iceland go on like it never existed. The only reason things have not escalated is that the Germans are praying that they eventually get their money back and to do so Greece's membership of the euro zone is crucial.

    Greece is taking the piss.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    If Greece wants to default its upto them.

    Its worked pretty well for Iceland, but naturally thats somewhat diffrent as they aren't in the Eurozone. The EU will make a deal (or not) that is in their best interests as will Greece.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Quite a funny diagram. Bit silly the way it condemns anyone genuinely left wing as 'loony' and of course it's nice to see Greens put down as New Loonies. :rolleyes:

    I see it in a more simple way. Pro-capitalism and anti-capitalism. Being anti doesn't mean you hate small businesses or the idea of differing pay rates or having to work for a living, but it does mean you don't believe the current economic model is viable in the long term and, increasingly, the short term.
    Its not just capitalism though is it?

    UKIP's policies around immigration are very anti capitalism, and a lot of the reason the Greens are in the 'looney left' is about defence.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's not the detail, it's more a question of the general fact that they oppose the Europe-wide and global consensus that "austerity is the only way" - this is not austerity for the rich, who have in many cases hugely boosted their wealth during the aftermath of 2008, but for the majority. This is unacceptable. People are now beginning to wake up and demand that it change.

    The detail will work through and as I said, I'm sure they will face many problems. That does not mean this isn't a good day for rational, human economics against the rapacious demands of the super rich and the banking sector that represents them.
    This is why it will never work. Too hippy-dippy, not realistic enough.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Quady)
    Its not just capitalism though is it?

    UKIP's policies around immigration are very anti capitalism, and a lot of the reason the Greens are in the 'looney left' is about defence.
    I think UKIP are one of a number of right wing movements who have recognised the strength of the anti-capitalism current and decided to try to fake their positions to get carried along with it.

    For example, whilst it is true that modern capitalism demands lower and lower wages for all (a typically non-viable and self-defeating aim, as it lowers demand but it does raise inequality, which current capitalism regards as a win) and mass immigration serves that goal, the UKIP agenda is to infect that with racism. Mass migration is a symptom of current inequality, not a cause, but UKIP identify it as a cause.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Quady)
    If Greece wants to default its upto them.

    Its worked pretty well for Iceland, but naturally thats somewhat diffrent as they aren't in the Eurozone. The EU will make a deal (or not) that is in their best interests as will Greece.
    We see countries taking bailouts from the Eurozone and expecting not to have to pay it back. The people in these countries then complain at those who lent them the money saying it's too harsh, it's not fair and so on.

    Sorry, that's not good enough and as I said above, they are taking the piss. Countries can't keep running at a loss and expect others to pick up the tab.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think UKIP are one of a number of right wing movements who have recognised the strength of the anti-capitalism current and decided to try to fake their positions to get carried along with it.

    For example, whilst it is true that modern capitalism demands lower and lower wages for all (a typically non-viable and self-defeating aim, as it lowers demand but it does raise inequality, which current capitalism regards as a win) and mass immigration serves that goal, the UKIP agenda is to infect that with racism. Mass migration is a symptom of current inequality, not a cause, but UKIP identify it as a cause.
    Nigel Farage, the man of the people who supports fox hunting and opposes gay marriage.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think UKIP are one of a number of right wing movements who have recognised the strength of the anti-capitalism current and decided to try to fake their positions to get carried along with it.

    For example, whilst it is true that modern capitalism demands lower and lower wages for all (a typically non-viable and self-defeating aim, as it lowers demand but it does raise inequality, which current capitalism regards as a win) and mass immigration serves that goal, the UKIP agenda is to infect that with racism. Mass migration is a symptom of current inequality, not a cause, but UKIP identify it as a cause.
    So you think they are just anti immigration because of anti-capitalist sentiment?

    Capitalism doesn't demand lower wages for all. It demands the market price. Footballers see their wages go ever higher due to the skill they have.

    Global wages are rising and have for the last fifty years at least.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Quady)
    So you think they are just anti immigration because of anti-capitalist sentiment?

    Capitalism doesn't demand lower wages for all. It demands the market price. Footballers see their wages go ever higher due to the skill they have.

    Global wages are rising and have for the last fifty years at least.
    You seem to believe that the workings of contemporary capitalism are based on free markets with efficient distribution of resources separate to special interests. Far from it. The global corporations, banks and financial institutions have seized control of the political and market landscapes and manipulate them to ensure massive monopolistic and oligopolistic profits, which in turn they ensure are untaxed and boxed in tax havens beyond the reach of the people who live in the markets where the money is made.

    Far from some sort of Adam Smith wonderworld, we live in a kind of modernised Orwellian reality, where Big Brother is a secretive hedge fund, corporate boardroom and rich shareholder operating from a desert island, stroking a white cat.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    You seem to believe that the workings of contemporary capitalism are based on free markets with efficient distribution of resources separate to special interests. Far from it. The global corporations, banks and financial institutions have seized control of the political and market landscapes and manipulate them to ensure massive monopolistic and oligopolistic profits, which in turn they ensure are untaxed and boxed in tax havens beyond the reach of the people who live in the markets where the money is made.

    Far from some sort of Adam Smith wonderworld, we live in a kind of modernised Orwellian reality, where Big Brother is a secretive hedge fund, corporate boardroom and rich shareholder operating from a desert island, stroking a white cat.
    Thats lovely and all, but you haven't actually refuted my points.

    Global living standards have/are rising aren't they? (even if you ignore the '1%')

    Footballershave seen no cut in wages.

    Even I, a public sector worker of the last 6-7 years, have seen a 65% rise in my wages since the start of the coalition almost five years ago.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Quite a funny diagram. Bit silly the way it condemns anyone genuinely left wing as 'loony' and of course it's nice to see Greens put down as New Loonies. :rolleyes:

    I see it in a more simple way. Pro-capitalism and anti-capitalism. Being anti doesn't mean you hate small businesses or the idea of differing pay rates or having to work for a living, but it does mean you don't believe the current economic model is viable in the long term and, increasingly, the short term.
    The point it is getting across is that what is considered "loony left" now by the daily mail brigade etc was once perfectly normal and centrists pre thatcher and produced "the golden age of capitalism". Old Tory governments supporting a version of the mixed economy model (which makes you loony left now) were far leftists nutters apparently.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    The point it is getting across is that what is considered "loony left" now by the daily mail brigade etc was once perfectly normal and centrists pre thatcher and produced "the golden age of capitalism". Old Tory governments supporting a version of the mixed economy model (which makes you loony left now) were far leftists nutters apparently.
    The UK has a mixed economy, and every significant political party advocates one. So no.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Quady)
    Thats lovely and all, but you haven't actually refuted my points.

    Global living standards have/are rising aren't they? (even if you ignore the '1%')

    Footballershave seen no cut in wages.

    Even I, a public sector worker of the last 6-7 years, have seen a 65% rise in my wages since the start of the coalition almost five years ago.
    Out of interest, what type of public sector worker are you? I doubt that very many have had a near-doubling of pay. The great majority have flatlined, but when you take inflation into account, most UK workers have suffered a big net drop in real incomes which is hardly made up for by a modest recent revival.

    Global living standards are a very mixed topic. Quality of life has probably fallen in many developing countries (and even developed ones) because of longer hours spent working to maintain living standards, increasing urban pollution and reduction in working conditions. The standard GDP PPP figures are strongly influenced by the growth in incomes of the corporate sector and the rich.

    In the developed world, marginalisation of vast numbers of workers, casualisation and zero-hours contracts, the mass destruction of professional work and the removal of whole tiers of employment by the digital economy are further entrenching the privileges of wealth owners and the destruction of real living standards for whole swathes of middle and working class families.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MrJAKEE)
    Sorry how is it the troikas fault that Greece overspent and overspent? PASOK & ND are the people to blame and because of their fiscal irresponsibility the Greek people will have to pay up.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    It's true that the past governments had made mistakes that were accumulated over the years and now the everyday citizens are paying for mistakes they didn't commit. However, when Troika came to Greece they were supposed to help eliminate the deficit and boost the economy. But instead of making things better, they made it even worse.

    Troika is wrong by default. If they were any good, people in the private sector wouldn't get 500 euros (370 pounds) monthly salary, unemployment wouldn't be skyrocketing, people would have money to use heating. Greece is more destitute than it was before the austerity measures.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by anastas)
    It's true that the past governments had made mistakes that were accumulated over the years and now the everyday citizens are paying for mistakes they didn't commit. However, when Troika came to Greece they were supposed to help eliminate the deficit and boost the economy. But instead of making things better, they made it even worse.

    Troika is wrong by default. If they were any good, people in the private sector wouldn't get 500 euros (370 pounds) monthly salary, unemployment wouldn't be skyrocketing, people would have money to use heating. Greece is more destitute than it was before the austerity measures.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Greek economy is currently growing and unemployment is falling?
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/gree...mployment-rate
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/gree...-growth-annual

    The Greeks never had to accept the terms of the Troika. If they didn't they'd be screwed though, they should be thankful that there were institutions in place to give loans to the Greek government. The Greeks were living in a bubble that would have always popped, you can't continually go on a spending spree and expect it to go on forever. Syriza aren't going to help matters either whatsoever.. What the Greeks need is to be more competitive, and raising wages isn't going to do that.




    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by MrJAKEE)
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Greek economy is currently growing and unemployment is falling?
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/gree...mployment-rate
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/gree...-growth-annual

    The Greeks never had to accept the terms of the Troika. If they didn't they'd be screwed though, they should be thankful that there were institutions in place to give loans to the Greek government. The Greeks were living in a bubble that would have always popped, you can't continually go on a spending spree and expect it to go on forever. Syriza aren't going to help matters either whatsoever.. What the Greeks need is to be more competitive, and raising wages isn't going to do that.





    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I live in Greece and personally speaking i haven't seen any substantial change neither in employment nor in economy growth. These charts may be true but people aren't numbers, the failure of Troika is shown on everyday peoples' lives.

    From my point of view, PASOK should have found other ways to solve the problem. There had been deficit problems in the country in the past too and the government didn't call out Troika or any other institution. Italy has deficit problems as well and they didn't get ''help'' from Troika.

    From your point of view, cutting wages is the way to go? I don't know how the UK media portrays the situation in Greece and i'm not sure the average European has realised what is really going on in countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal and Cyprus. Making statistics is fine, but having people getting unemployed and homeless and having Troika saying that they're really helping Greece is not.
 
 
 
Poll
Do you agree with the PM's proposal to cut tuition fees for some courses?
Useful resources

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.