What do you think a feminist is? Watch

RandZul'Zorander
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For those complaining about men and being excluded from feminism: http://brutereason.net/2012/09/20/in...-a-handy-list/
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/a-new-masculinity/

Both have links to lots of resources.

As for the feminism vs egalitarianism issue I don't really know why people feel like they cannot be one and the same. Egalitarianism seems to just be a bigger umbrella term. Egalitarians and feminists are not mutually exclusive groups. Identifying as one does not mean that you are not the other. Feminism is often just an expression of egalitarian thought specifically relating to gender related issues.
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Wade-
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(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
For those complaining about men and being excluded from feminism: http://brutereason.net/2012/09/20/in...-a-handy-list/
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/a-new-masculinity/

Both have links to lots of resources.

As for the feminism vs egalitarianism issue I don't really know why people feel like they cannot be one and the same. Egalitarianism seems to just be a bigger umbrella term. Egalitarians and feminists are not mutually exclusive groups. Identifying as one does not mean that you are not the other. Feminism is often just an expression of egalitarian thought specifically relating to gender related issues.
I really don't see much from those links, a lot of them are based around other things like the man arrested for blasphemy and the man who killed his sexual abuser. Even though a few of those links demonstrate an awareness of issues against men I'm yet to see any feminists actually campaigning to change any of it. In my view the single most sexist piece of legislation in the UK is against men and I haven't seen any feminists campaigning to have the law changed to correct the discrimination, on the contrary it seems feminists are only concerned with tougher treatment of men accused and convicted of rape


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RandZul'Zorander
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(Original post by Wade-)
I really don't see much from those links, a lot of them are based around other things like the man arrested for blasphemy and the man who killed his sexual abuser. Even though a few of those links demonstrate an awareness of issues against men I'm yet to see any feminists actually campaigning to change any of it. In my view the single most sexist piece of legislation in the UK is against men and I haven't seen any feminists campaigning to have the law changed to correct the discrimination, on the contrary it seems feminists are only concerned with tougher treatment of men accused and convicted of rape


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What do you mean 'other things'? They are addressing issues that are facing men. Masculinity, sexual assault, men and the industrial prison complex, men as victims of violence, etc. If all you took away was blasphemy then you didn't read enough. What counts as 'campaigning'? Feminist spaces, and discourse is part of addressing issues. Do you mean a funded political campaign? If you read the everyday feminist article you would see that many female feminists don't want to be the one's spearheading a men's issue for fear of doing it wrong etc.
I'm assuming you're talking about the law that prevents men from being a victim of rape as a crime, and instead is a victim of sexual assault. Here a paper (by feminists) about the definition of rape etc. https://kar.kent.ac.uk/33378/3/Fishe...B%2010-05R.pdf If you can't find criticism of the current rape law then you need to look deeper.
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Wade-
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(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
What do you mean 'other things'? They are addressing issues that are facing men. Masculinity, sexual assault, men and the industrial prison complex, men as victims of violence, etc. If all you took away was blasphemy then you didn't read enough. What counts as 'campaigning'? Feminist spaces, and discourse is part of addressing issues. Do you mean a funded political campaign? If you read the everyday feminist article you would see that many female feminists don't want to be the one's spearheading a men's issue for fear of doing it wrong etc.
I'm assuming you're talking about the law that prevents men from being a victim of rape as a crime, and instead is a victim of sexual assault. Here a paper (by feminists) about the definition of rape etc. https://kar.kent.ac.uk/33378/3/Fishe...B%2010-05R.pdf If you can't find criticism of the current rape law then you need to look deeper.
So like I said, showing awareness of certain issues, that doesn't mean that feminists are actually doing anything about it. I mean actually piping up to change the law rather than focusing on trying to have cat calling criminalised.

You're definition is slightly off but yes we're talking about the same law. Where does it say it's written by a feminist? You also can't say well here's one feminist saying that the current law is wrong therefore it's only a minority that agree with it


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RandZul'Zorander
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(Original post by Wade-)
So like I said, showing awareness of certain issues, that doesn't mean that feminists are actually doing anything about it. I mean actually piping up to change the law rather than focusing on trying to have cat calling criminalised.
Did you just not read what I said? If you read the article it explains why many are reluctant to actual start and lead campaigns. And in their 'showing awareness' they are being advocates. So what counts as 'actually doing anything about it'? If you mean a political campaign I already addressed that. But don't say that feminism doesn't care or address men's issues. They do.

You're definition is slightly off but yes we're talking about the same law. Where does it say it's written by a feminist? You also can't say well here's one feminist saying that the current law is wrong therefore it's only a minority that agree with it
Oops! :eek3: I mistyped. Sorry about that lol. Anyway, if you read the piece they utilize feminist theories and works to come to their conclusions and for their analysis. And I wasn't saying whether there was a minority or majority in favor of one position. You haven't seen feminists 'campaign' on the issue so I provided one example. If you want more then do the digging yourself. If you aren't looking at feminist works, journals, etc. then of course you'd be ignorant of what they have to say on the issues. Mainstream media only scratches the surface of feminism.
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dyslexicvegie
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Hay people,

so feminism is all for women's rights, that does not mean "anti-men's" in just the same way being all for LGBT rights does not mean "anti-strait" ????
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zippity.doodah
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(Original post by dyslexicvegie)
Hay people,

so feminism is all for women's rights, that does not mean "anti-men's" in just the same way being all for LGBT rights does not mean "anti-strait" ????
oh yeah? so what are the political goals of feminists, and what are their policies/means? surely there must be some that can act as examples of "feminism" and not misandry (because lately I see no difference)
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Wade-
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(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
Did you just not read what I said? If you read the article it explains why many are reluctant to actual start and lead campaigns. And in their 'showing awareness' they are being advocates. So what counts as 'actually doing anything about it'? If you mean a political campaign I already addressed that. But don't say that feminism doesn't care or address men's issues. They do.
That's such an awful excuse and quite frankly just a cop out for not doing anything to address areas where men are disadvantaged.

Writing an article about something does not constitute doing anything about it. If somewhere to write an article in America saying black people are more likely to be in social housing that's not trying to fix the problem it's simply acknowledging it exists.

(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
Oops! :eek3: I mistyped. Sorry about that lol. Anyway, if you read the piece they utilize feminist theories and works to come to their conclusions and for their analysis. And I wasn't saying whether there was a minority or majority in favor of one position. You haven't seen feminists 'campaign' on the issue so I provided one example. If you want more then do the digging yourself. If you aren't looking at feminist works, journals, etc. then of course you'd be ignorant of what they have to say on the issues. Mainstream media only scratches the surface of feminism.
To be honest I wasn't really going to read through a thirty page article on it. The bits I read through just repeated the idiocy spouted by feminist writers. The simple fact is the majority of feminists that you see are so busy complaining about 'the gender pay gap' and tougher sentences for rapists that they ignore the issues against men


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DaniilKaya
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One word - Liberal bull****
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RandZul'Zorander
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(Original post by Wade-)
That's such an awful excuse and quite frankly just a cop out for not doing anything to address areas where men are disadvantaged.

Writing an article about something does not constitute doing anything about it. If somewhere to write an article in America saying black people are more likely to be in social housing that's not trying to fix the problem it's simply acknowledging it exists.
:rofl: You clearly don't read very much academic or feminist literature because they don't just go "oh look this is a problem". They almost always suggest solutions and ways to implement them.

Nor is it a cop-out to say that writing articles has no effect is to deny the power of the media and academia on the world. Which is rather funny because you complain about the feminist portrayed in the media as the basis of your argument.


To be honest I wasn't really going to read through a thirty page article on it. The bits I read through just repeated the idiocy spouted by feminist writers. The simple fact is the majority of feminists that you see are so busy complaining about 'the gender pay gap' and tougher sentences for rapists that they ignore the issues against men


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I didn't say to read the article. I said if you do you would note. You asked how I knew they were feminist. I told answered. Very simple.

What 'bits' did you read? A few sentences? lol A paragraph or two of a thirty page article? :rolleyes: If you arent going actually engage in feminist writings and thought then don't complain about it contents because you have obviously have no idea what it is.
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Wade-
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(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
:rofl: You clearly don't read very much academic or feminist literature because they don't just go "oh look this is a problem". They almost always suggest solutions and ways to implement them.

Nor is it a cop-out to say that writing articles has no effect is to deny the power of the media and academia on the world. Which is rather funny because you complain about the feminist portrayed in the media as the basis of your argument.
No I don't read much feminist literature, just like I don't read much Scientology literature because it's idiotic.

I didn't say that was a cop out. I said that the excuse for not actually starting any campaigns to support men is a cop out. It's essentially like white people saying, back when we had slavery, we don't know what black people would really want so we can't really try and help.

(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
I didn't say to read the article. I said if you do you would note. You asked how I knew they were feminist. I told answered. Very simple.

What 'bits' did you read? A few sentences? lol A paragraph or two of a thirty page article? :rolleyes: If you arent going actually engage in feminist writings and thought then don't complain about it contents because you have obviously have no idea what it is.
The simple fact is one article does not mean that feminists, at large, care about mens issues. If you go on to pretty much any feminist organisations website you'll see it awash with all these statistics to demonstrate how hard done by women are and essentially no mention of sexism against men.



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RandZul'Zorander
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(Original post by Wade-)
No I don't read much feminist literature, just like I don't read much Scientology literature because it's idiotic.
And what authority do you have to make that claim without actually knowing the content? :rolleyes:

I didn't say that was a cop out. I said that the excuse for not actually starting any campaigns to support men is a cop out. It's essentially like white people saying, back when we had slavery, we don't know what black people would really want so we can't really try and help.
If you knew more about the black liberation movement you would know that often times white people did refrain from being the leaders and did defer and wait/listen to what black people wanted.


The simple fact is one article does not mean that feminists, at large, care about mens issues. If you go on to pretty much any feminist organisations website you'll see it awash with all these statistics to demonstrate how hard done by women are and essentially no mention of sexism against men.



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I provided a whole slew of articles from tons of feminist websites that talked about men's issues. Simple fact of the matter is that you have no idea what feminists actually say because you don't listen to them or read their literature.
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PostgradMatt
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In a few words, full of contradictions and a bit of an earache.
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ChickenMadness
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(Original post by futbol)
A woman in need of a husband.
loled
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username521617
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(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
For those complaining about men and being excluded from feminism: http://brutereason.net/2012/09/20/in...-a-handy-list/
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/05/a-new-masculinity/

Both have links to lots of resources.

As for the feminism vs egalitarianism issue I don't really know why people feel like they cannot be one and the same. Egalitarianism seems to just be a bigger umbrella term. Egalitarians and feminists are not mutually exclusive groups. Identifying as one does not mean that you are not the other. Feminism is often just an expression of egalitarian thought specifically relating to gender related issues.
Egalitarianism has no biases and no preferential slant. The issue is that feminism, which is supposed to stand for gender equality, focuses its efforts and attention almost entirely on one sex. Gender issues become women's issues, and problems that affect both men and women (for example, domestic violence) are addressed almost solely through a female-focused narrative and perspective. This is a problem and the source of a growing void of double standards, and even leads to constructing issues that aren't even real. Women are the victims, men are the problem. Women are right, men are wrong. All women are powerless, all men are powerful. To dispute this is wrong. This attitude permeates the movement and is what fosters so much animosity and disgruntlement towards current feminism. For this reason, when the dictionary definition of feminism is recited with such an air of confidence and ironically ignorant (albeit well-meaning) piousness, people such as myself can't help but wince.

As for your first link, these instances are too rare and overshadowed.

Edit: And as for the second link, it's a little insulting and condescending to be invited solve the problem of myself. "...masculinity is fundamentally an expression of patriarchal oppression" - at this point I was just about ready to tell the author where to shove their words.
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RandZul'Zorander
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(Original post by Dandaman1)
Egalitarianism has no biases and no preferential slant.
Egalitarianism is nothing specific. It doesn't have any specific movement or ideology of its own. It is an umbrella term encompassing the many other equality movements.

The issue is that feminism, which is supposed to stand for gender equality, focuses its efforts and attention almost entirely on one sex. Gender issues become women's issues, and problems that affect both men and women (for example, domestic violence) are addressed almost solely through a female-focused narrative and perspective. This is a problem and the source of a growing void of double standards, and even leads to constructing issues that aren't even real.
The reason many issues are framed as "women's issues" or that the main focus is on women is because the issues are disproportionally affecting women (ie the domestic violence issue). But that doesn't mean that feminism only focuses on women.

Women are the victims, men are the problem. Women are right, men are wrong. All women are powerless, all men are powerful. To dispute this is wrong. This attitude permeates the movement and is what fosters so much animosity and disgruntlement towards current feminism.
You clearly don't talk to very many feminists. Nor do you read much feminist literature. You are naive if you think this is even close to what feminism says.
As for your first link, these instances are too rare and overshadowed.
Amusing that you say they are so rare, when that list was made in like...15 minutes? :rolleyes:

Edit: And as for the second link, it's a little insulting and condescending to be invited solve the problem of myself. "...masculinity is fundamentally an expression of patriarchal oppression" - at this point I was just about ready to tell the author where to shove their words.
:rolleyes: You are invited to solve an issue that affects many men. What is condescending about being invited to help those men? It's funny that you accuse the feminist movement of not caring about men's issues and then when you are invited to help them be more inclusive you scoff and call them condescending.
You are also conflating patriarchy with men. The two are different. Patriarchy is a system, men are subject to that system just as everyone else is.
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Wade-
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(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
And what authority do you have to make that claim without actually knowing the content? :rolleyes:
I don't need to, I have enough examples of what mainstream feminists believe to cast it off as stupid.

(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
If you knew more about the black liberation movement you would know that often times white people did refrain from being the leaders and did defer and wait/listen to what black people wanted.
Well I'm not going to get into a historical debate but white people certainly did lead at least some of the movements to have slavery banned and didn't abstain in case 'they got it wrong' (or whatever stupid excuse you used).


(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
I provided a whole slew of articles from tons of feminist websites that talked about men's issues. Simple fact of the matter is that you have no idea what feminists actually say because you don't listen to them or read their literature.
Yes you did and most of them either say very little or aren't really about mens rights:

Is it rape if you don't mean for it to be rape - nothing to do with men's rights
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archive...it-to-be-rape/

Mens sheds - this one is basically reporting on club houses being built for old men so they don't get lonely, great work feminists you're reporting on what other people are building
feministing.com/2011/08/30/mens-sheds-because-blokes-have-feelings-too/

Paving the way for feminist men - again nothing in this about mens rights
feministing.com/2010/11/04/paving-the-way-for-feminist-men/

Male atheist arrested for blasphemy - again not an issue of mens rights but I didn't think it was funny they chose to include male in the title.
skepchick.org/2012/09/another-atheist-arrested-sign-this-petition/

Man being treated unfairly after killing his sexual abuser - not an issue of mens rights
feministing.com/2012/09/17/pa-to-execute-man-who-killed-his-sexual-abuser/

That's just a handful of the articles I went through from the link you posted, I'm sure I could keep going and find more that do not lay out suggestions for how to fix areas where men are disadvantaged




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RandZul'Zorander
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(Original post by Wade-)
I don't need to, I have enough examples of what mainstream feminists believe to cast it off as stupid.
:lol: except that 'mainstream feminism' is only what the media gives the most attention to and is not representative of the whole feminist movement.

Well I'm not going to get into a historical debate but white people certainly did lead at least some of the movements to have slavery banned and didn't abstain in case 'they got it wrong' (or whatever stupid excuse you used).
I didn't say there weren't any but you tried to claim that it's condescending to defer to those who actually experience the problems and that was often a reason many did abstain.

Yes you did and most of them either say very little or aren't really about mens rights:

Is it rape if you don't mean for it to be rape - nothing to do with men's rights
http://www.feministe.us/blog/archive...it-to-be-rape/

Mens sheds - this one is basically reporting on club houses being built for old men so they don't get lonely, great work feminists you're reporting on what other people are building
feministing.com/2011/08/30/mens-sheds-because-blokes-have-feelings-too/

Paving the way for feminist men - again nothing in this about mens rights
feministing.com/2010/11/04/paving-the-way-for-feminist-men/

Male atheist arrested for blasphemy - again not an issue of mens rights but I didn't think it was funny they chose to include male in the title.
skepchick.org/2012/09/another-atheist-arrested-sign-this-petition/

Man being treated unfairly after killing his sexual abuser - not an issue of mens rights
feministing.com/2012/09/17/pa-to-execute-man-who-killed-his-sexual-abuser/

That's just a handful of the articles I went through from the link you posted, I'm sure I could keep going and find more that do not lay out suggestions for how to fix areas where men are disadvantaged




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"Men's Rights" has to do with issues that face men. Each one of those articles talks about an issue that faces men. Some of them are advocacy for a practice. Some are encouraging people to advocate for specific men, others are about raising awareness about intersection and opportunities to learn. I'm sorry that you're mind is so limited that you can't make the connections for how these are helpful for men. Feel free to read more, and find more links as it doesn't take much.
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Wade-
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(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
:lol: except that 'mainstream feminism' is only what the media gives the most attention to and is not representative of the whole feminist movement.
I've already said you can go onto pretty much any feminist organisations website and see very clearly that they give you facts about how hard done by women are and ignore male problems.

(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
I didn't say there weren't any but you tried to claim that it's condescending to defer to those who actually experience the problems and that was often a reason many did abstain.
Ok well perhaps the HoC should stop bothering with women's issues because it's mostly men and they wouldn't want to get it wrong would they.

(Original post by RandZul'Zorander)
"Men's Rights" has to do with issues that face men. Each one of those articles talks about an issue that faces men. Some of them are advocacy for a practice. Some are encouraging people to advocate for specific men, others are about raising awareness about intersection and opportunities to learn. I'm sorry that you're mind is so limited that you can't make the connections for how these are helpful for men. Feel free to read more, and find more links as it doesn't take much.
Yes issues that face men in general, not individuals like in the articles about the man in jail for blasphemy or the one who murdered his sexual abuser. Some of them really show no support for men at all, particularly the one called 'is it rape if you don't mean it to be rape'. The writer essentially says that the situation described isn't rape but if a man thinks a woman isn't consenting when she isn't then it is rape, showing real concern toward men there.



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RandZul'Zorander
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(Original post by Wade-)
I've already said you can go onto pretty much any feminist organisations website and see very clearly that they give you facts about how hard done by women are and ignore male problems.
And I've provided a list of sources in less than 15 minutes. If you can't be bothered to actually look then don't claim you have any actual knowledge.

Ok well perhaps the HoC should stop bothering with women's issues because it's mostly men and they wouldn't want to get it wrong would they.
I'm not sure what group you are trying to refer to. Perhaps they should. Are they consulting with women in their work? Or is it just a bunch of men deciding what is best for women? How effective are their strategies and what messages do they send/reinforce? This is why it generally considered important for movements to be led by those affected.

Yes issues that face men in general, not individuals like in the articles about the man in jail for blasphemy or the one who murdered his sexual abuser. Some of them really show no support for men at all, particularly the one called 'is it rape if you don't mean it to be rape'. The writer essentially says that the situation described isn't rape but if a man thinks a woman isn't consenting when she isn't then it is rape, showing real concern toward men there.



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:confused: You do realize that most activism and most work is done around individual cases right? We use individual experiences to highlight problems faced by a wider group. So for example the man in jail for blasphemy had to do with how he was treated and showing support for his case (which encourages similar treatment of similar cases). Same for the man who murdered his sexual abuser.

As for the on on rape you clearly didn't read it very well. The author most certainly did not agree that that it wasn't rape. They said:
He was sexually violated; whether she intended to or not, that’s the fact of what happened. Or it’s possible that Dan is right and the dude is being a manipulative jackass. But I think that probably dude was asleep and woke up to his girlfriend having sex with him and freaked out. And… that’s a fair reaction. It doesn’t make her a bad person or a rapist (she was awake and reasonably believed he was awake and consenting), but it also doesn’t make him not-violated or not-raped just because she didn’t mean it.
:rolleyes: It's unclear whether it was 'rape' technically it likely wasn't legally at least. But he was clearly violated even if it was an innocent mistake.
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