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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    No I wouldn't get offended.
    absolutely not.
    The key being:
    you don't believe in that religion.

    Christianity believes we are going to eternally be burned in hell. Do I get riled up, moany? sound like a whiny little child? No
    I actually try to understand what is their view exactly, why? how?..etc
    No we don't. Where did you get that from?

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    (Original post by m-hussain)
    These questions seem to be more interesting for those who are into philosophy....Im not sorry

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    If you are not interested or in the slightest bit knowledgeable about philosophy then how can you be certain that your religion is right over any others or non-religions? :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Obviously water is not the perfect analogy, but it highlights that it is not incomprehensible, that something as everyday as water, exists in three different states. That said, water can and does exist exist simultaneously in all three states when at the what is referred to as the "triple point" of water. Or one can look at the "Wave–particle duality", where light can exist both as a wave and a particle.

    So the concept of two different forms existing at once is not at odds with our understanding of the universe at a quantum level. It would seem to me personally that the denial of the Trinity being "theoretically possible" is normally based upon one having an agenda as opposed to a valid reasoning. For example, from my experience, Jehovah Witnesses will completely deny the idea that a Trinitarian God is theoretically possible. If a God is omnipotent, I don't see why not.

    The only objections one can reasonably make is that either an omnipotent God could not exist as it is logically absurd, or that God is bound by certain laws of nature which prevent him from doing so (and thus he is not omnipotent and also the question arises as to who created the laws).
    tazbro debunked this

    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    This simply isn't true. Chemists always discuss the phase that a particular atom or molecule might be in. It's true that phase of a molecule is determined by its interactions with its surrounding molecules. So one single, isolated molecule on its own can't really have a phase as such. But when many molecules are in a container, there's nothing nonsensical about pointing at an individual one and saying which phase its in. That molecule has interactions with those surrounding it, and it's phase describes what they are.

    When water is at the triple point, at any given instant in time, the container cannot be said to entirely contain ice, and entirely contain water, and entirely contain gas. Different portions of it are in different states. The part of it which is ice is not also steam at the same time. A simple photograph demonstrates this clearly.



    Nobody is claiming that the Trinity is illogical just because there is nothing else like it in nature. It is illogical simply because it contradicts itself, in the claim that something can be fully "God" (i.e. Immortal in its entirety) and "fully human" (i.e. Mortal, at least in part).

    However, if something like this did exist in nature, it would prove that the concept of the Trinity is not illogical if it's based on the same model. The point here is to show that this proof hasn't been provided, as the triple point analogy (and others) do not accurately match the concept of the Trinity.
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    I thought the term 'unbelievers' referred to evil/bad people....so if you had a bad muslim and a good atheist on 'judgment day' the 'good' guy would make it to heaven:confused:

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    (Original post by m-hussain)
    and god is very merciful in Islam we believe if a non muslim lives his whole life till the end he becomes a muslim all his sins are forgiven....i think except partnering others to god.....i believe My Lord is Just....on the day of judgement all sins will be said to us

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    What about people who live in remote tribes in the Amazon who have never heard of Islam, living their complete lives in ignorance of it? Will they burn in hell for all eternity?

    Millions of people live and died on earth before any of the "prophets" mentioned in Islam appeared. Are they burning in hell now? If so why?

    What do you feel about the morality of a supernatural entity who has created all of us, watches all of our actions before deciding whether or not we burn in hell for all eternity on the grounds we don't believe in his existence?

    Do you disbelieve the theory of evolution yet believe Muhammed split the Moon in two, and that mankind was made by a sperm drop and clotted blood ?
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    (Original post by m-hussain)
    Tbh i was really confused with the concept in christianity especially with the....god....son of god....and holy ghost....i dnt believe that God will bear (not sure if that was spelt correctly) children. Who do christians believe god is? Iyo

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    Son of God does not mean a biological son. In Christianity, Jesus was not created, he has always existed as part of the Trinity.

    (Original post by m-hussain)
    Water has three forms??? U mean ice ...water and vapour....when ice is ice, its ice and not liquid nor gas...atleast i dnt think so...crrect me if im wrong....what i mean is god is always god.....not sure if i made the post clear...

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    Actually, water can exist as ice, water and steam at the same time, look up the triple point of water. Moreover, in its supercritical state, all phase boundaries disappear and a fluid can diffuse through solids like a gas and dissolve substances like a liquid.
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    (Original post by WhisperingTide)
    Fun fact: Virgin births are actually possible and have happened.
    Are you for real?
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    (Original post by m-hussain)
    Ok i find the term creature offensive.
    OK, how about the term monster, is that any better? Because a being who tortures people for all eternity is nothing but a bloodthirsty, psychotic monster, no two ways about it.

    (Original post by WhisperingTide)
    If I recall, those are unworthy simply die, they aren't tortured. They get oblivion, not pain.

    You're thinking of Christianity.

    And even then, there are many interpretations of both Christianity and Islam in-which everyone goes to heaven eventually, hell is just a cosmic 'rehab' clinic.
    I have never heard any muslim say that unbelievers/sinners are cast into oblivion, are there verses to support this?

    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    These things essentially are all made of h2o at the end of the day whether in ice liquid..etc.
    But god human spirit they are not even of the same constituent, so this god is not a single god of the same nature but a divided god.
    Also as a Christian themselves explains:
    The Trinity is like water. This is a modalistic illustration. Ice, steam, and liquid are examples of the same nature which at one time or another has a particular mode of existence. Sometimes it is liquid, sometimes it is ice, and sometimes it is steam. God is not sometimes Son, sometimes Father, and sometimes Spirit. He is eternally each, always at the same time.

    So the water model is not the answer.
    An omnipotent God would have no trouble being in many places at the same time, including being in physical form. If your Allah cannot do this then he is extremely weak and doesn't deserve the title of God, because the Christian God has no trouble doing this at all.

    Also, water can be in all 3 forms at the same time, it's the triple point. While it may not be an exact analogy, it's more than adequate and you know it. Coincidentally, it's only ever muslims who can't seem to comprehend the Trinity, everyone else can grasp the concept quite easily, including most non-Christians. How curious, wouldn't you say?

    Moreover, your attempt at deduction is fallacious and disingenuous. You're trying to deduce that because no exact comparison of the Trinity may be found it nature, that it therefore cannot be true. But in Islam, Allah is meant to be beyond all comprehension and logic. So by your own logic he can't exist because there is nothing in the physical realm that can be compared to him.
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    (Original post by m-hussain)

    The thing you dont undrstand is diabelief in God is a major sin....I domt know hw else to put it to u....



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    Why? I understand that your religion teaches you this, and you believe what you have been taught to believe.

    But do you ever think for yourself? Ever ask why?
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    X
    This simply isn't true. Chemists always discuss the phase that a particular atom or molecule might be in. It's true that phase of a molecule is determined by its interactions with its surrounding molecules. So one single, isolated molecule on its own can't really have a phase as such. But when many molecules are in a container, there's nothing nonsensical about pointing at an individual one and saying which phase its in. That molecule has interactions with those surrounding it, and it's phase describes what they are.

    When water is at the triple point, at any given instant in time, the container cannot be said to entirely contain ice, and entirely contain water, and entirely contain gas. Different portions of it are in different states. The part of it which is ice is not also steam at the same time. A simple photograph demonstrates this clearly.



    Nobody is claiming that the Trinity is illogical just because there is nothing else like it in nature. It is illogical simply because it contradicts itself, in the claim that something can be fully "God" (i.e. Immortal in its entirety) and "fully human" (i.e. Mortal, at least in part).

    However, if something like this did exist in nature, it would prove that the concept of the Trinity is not illogical if it's based on the same model. The point here is to show that this proof hasn't been provided, as the triple point analogy (and others) do not accurately match the concept of the Trinity.
    I don't see where this poster has debunked the analogy. The point remains that an atom or molecule in and of itself cannot be in any particular phase, they are exclusively caused by interactions with others that give the overall substance the appearance and properties of solid/liquid/gas etc. A chemist may say "this molecule is in this phase" in everyday language so as not to be ridiculously pedantic, but if we are to be ultra correct then it's only the interactions between molecules that give rise to a phase, and not the structure of a molecule itself. An atom/molecule is generally no different in composition/structure when in solid/liquid/gas form. Besides, I don't really see the relevance of this pedantry to the general comparison with the Trinity? So while this model may not be exact, it more than adequately describes the Trinity, along with the wave-particle duality and supercritical fluid examples.

    Concerning the next point, the Trinity is not illogical nor does it contradict itself. Looked at from the perspective of an all-powerful Deity it is just a plausible explanation as any other. The only people who seem to say it is inherently impossible are those who have a vested interest in disproving Christianity, i.e. muslims.
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    (Original post by m-hussain)
    Before I start I just want to reassure you that I am going to remain honest through all my answers.

    I was born in a muslim family, so I was raised as a muslim, but I wasn't really religious until I became about 16. That's when I became more curious about the purpose of life and religion. I started to question why is my religion Islam and not another such as Christianity.

    So I gained knowledge of the concept of God in the major religions whilst still being muslim, having no doubt that there is one God. I think what gave me more firm belief was when I started to read the translation of the quran. Everything just adds up to me and I stop feeling the need to question whats in the Qur'an. And then I learnt arabic which made me gain a deeper understanding.

    Hope that answers your question



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    What's your favourite fairy tale from the Qu'ran then? Mines the one where Mohammed flies to the moon.
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    Besides, for all this waffle about gods not being able to be in different phases at the same time, aren't human beings in different phases? Ask any religionist and they're almost certainly bound to tell you that as well as being in material form (i.e. a body of flesh and blood), they also have a soul....
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    (Original post by EdmundWoodstock)


    An omnipotent God would have no trouble being in many places at the same time, including being in physical form.
    Yes he would have no trouble being a Trinity, but why should anyone believe that he is one? What evidence is there for it?

    It doesn't even have a proper scriptural foundation. Unless you can point to where Christ explicitly mentions it? As one of the three it would have been helpful if he had...

    The whole concept in its now accepted form as an orthodoxy was devised to defeat Arianism. In other words created by men (Athanasius) to deal with the controversies of the time.

    All Arians and other disbelievers in the concept could be killed as heretics.

    Nice.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Yes he would have no trouble being a Trinity, but why should anyone believe that he is one? What evidence is there for it?

    It doesn't even have a proper scriptural foundation. Unless you can point to where Christ explicitly mentions it? As one of the three it would have been helpful if he had...

    The whole concept in its now accepted form as an orthodoxy was devised to defeat Arianism. In other words created by men Athanasius) to deal with the controversies of the time.

    All Arians and other disbelievers in the concept could be killed as heretics.

    Nice.
    I'm not arguing for reasons to believe in the Trinity, nor whether there is scriptural basis for it, than in itself is a whole other topic. What I am saying is that none of these examples disprove the Trinity or point to why it could not exist.
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    (Original post by m-hussain)
    Looool yh I saw the female version and thought this would be fun lol.......

    In a wife?? Emmm well I'd like a muslim girl who practices her deen first of all....Im pretty sure evrry muslim guy would just come out and say that..... tbh I believe looks do matter too...I would need to be attracted to my wife lol....A woman who would stay loyal to me as I would be to her....Funny, Smart , cute, Talkative, Not one of those 24/7 housewives who does all the cooking cleaning etc, because I would like to treat my wife like my queen and do evrrything for her...

    I love Chickn Korma

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    (Original post by EdmundWoodstock)
    I'm not arguing for reasons to believe in the Trinity, nor whether there is scriptural basis for it, than in itself is a who other topic. What I am saying is that none of these examples disprove the Trinity or point to why it could not exist.
    Fair enough.

    Islamic attacks on the Trinity are as stupid and nonsensical as the rest of their belief system. On that we agree.
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    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    Yes he would have no trouble being a Trinity, but why should anyone believe that he is one? What evidence is there for it?
    I agree. Hence I am no longer a Christian.

    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    It doesn't even have a proper scriptural foundation. Unless you can point to where Christ explicitly mentions it? As one of the three it would have been helpful if he had...
    That is debatable. You can refer to my previous debate with a Jehovah Witness on TSR where I make the claim that there are verses within the Bible that can be used to support the Trinity. It quite a lot to read through

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...5#post53516415

    I am still waiting for a response from the member Alter2Ego. Feel free to respond if you wish.


    (Original post by chocolate hottie)
    The whole concept in its now accepted form as an orthodoxy was devised to defeat Arianism. In other words created by men (Athanasius) to deal with the controversies of the time.

    All Arians and other disbelievers in the concept could be killed as heretics.

    Nice.
    Ariunism was based upon the teachings of Arius who was born in 250AD. However, I have provided textual support (prior to 250AD) for a verse that can be interpreted as supporting the Trinitarian belief.

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...5#post54494675
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    (Original post by Achaea)
    She was 9 when Muhammad had sex with her. There are several sahih hadiths about it. Look it up.

    Riiiiiiiight. So if I don't acknowledge everything my father does for me, he has the right to torture me for all eternity?

    You think a creature that creates countless billions of people in order to torture them in hell is 'very merciful'? Are you actually serious? Why would your 'very merciful' creature create hell and endless torture in the first place?

    So you think people can fool Allah by becoming Muslims on their death-bed? You think your god is stupid?

    All the non-Muslims you see around you, all those billllllllions of people on the planet, who will never become Muslim. How do you feel, knowing that your allah will torture them for trillions and zillions of years? The people who serve you in shops and restaurants, the doctors and nurses who treat you and your loved ones in hospital, your teachers, most people you pass in the street. The god you worship and think is so 'merciful' will subject all of them to the most agonising torture forever. That sits well with you? This is the creature you choose to love and worship?
    You're misinterpreting this. Read this http://islamqa.info/en/1244
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    (Original post by m-hussain)
    There arent any that make me feel comfortable.....nice question ...made me think for some time

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    So, follow up question - Why do you follow an ideology that you are not comfortable with?
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    (Original post by m-hussain)
    Sorry I dnt know what that is

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    Islamic law, you know :lol:
 
 
 
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