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    (Original post by domonict)
    Doing a few hours I can see the point,

    Interesting about the claims that accountants and law firms do this as in the link I will post, the thread starter indicates that he rang HMRC who declared unpaid arrangements illegal

    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...s-unpaid-trial
    The law firm was mentioned by me. It wasn't a few days, it was I think two hours - I can't remember because I didn't go, I was offered a better job in the public sector.

    The link you have posted doesn't seem to say that unpaid trials are illegal, but that not telling the individual that their first shift was unpaid was illegal. Which it probably is.
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    (Original post by thisistheend)
    what does that have anything to do with it? a munter is a munter.
    Keep telling yourself that's why you can't get it up
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    Tell me what you like, the real world doesn't work like that. The Tories are only going to increase their power after Corbyn destroys Labour. I mean see the accusations below-about a short trial being "prostitution", being treated like "garbage". Incredible.

    "I'm telling YOU something". Tell me what you like, the UK public evidently disagrees. Workfare is in place for those too lazy to gain experience. I have done it, many I know have done, it is part of the world. If things get tough you try harder and take every opportunity to add to your CV. Not turn down a trial and spend the next couple of weeks looking for another interview.



    Doing a short trial-"prostituting yourself".

    Getting paid a good salary after a three day delay "working for nothing".

    Doing a good job-"other people have some self respect".

    That people think doing a three day trial is the same as being a prostitute is exactly what is wrong with benefits in the UK.




    You think a three day trial is unreasonable...incredible. The public has spoken by voting Tory. You say "the employer is being unreasonable". The public say no-YOU are being unreasonable with your work-shy attitude.

    We can argue this until the cows come home. Bottom line is that the public have spoken with a Tory majority in the House of Commons-welfare is being reformed and workfare introduced so that people DO have to be earning or learning. If you are not-get some experience like everyone else does. Earn or learn, that is the way of the working world. Ideally earn and learn, but at least do one. if a short trial is too much to ask-well you probably aren't that keen on the job anyway. Leave the chance for someone with a proper attitude to go in and get the chance.



    Getting a three day trial before then getting paid a good salary makes someone "Disposable garbage".

    The left really have an entitlement culture that I hope the Tories can fix.
    I'm having a discussion about personal principles and you're bringing national politics into it :rolleyes:

    And you're calling me work-shy even though I already told you that I've been working in different jobs since I was 16. Through uni. Over 10 years without being unemployed.

    I'm done responding to you now.
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    (Original post by domonict)
    Doing a few hours I can see the point,

    Interesting about the claims that accountants and law firms do this as in the link I will post, the thread starter indicates that he rang HMRC who declared unpaid arrangements illegal

    http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...s-unpaid-trial
    In reality they are a convenient way for small businesses to try out people before committing. They don't have the manpower to waste time sorting out the HR for this stuff only to then have to undo it if they don't take the person on.

    You say illegal, the reality of the world is that they are the best way to get your foot in the door for smaller firms.

    Instead of spending time looking how evil a three day trial is on the internet, do the trial and then be in the horrible position of getting paid to do a job.

    Honestly, rather than see a trial as an opportunity people see it as some kind of great injustice. I am changing my stance on voting Tory-I will do this election. Also, my stance on the EU has changed. We are 1.5 trillion in debt and people are being so picky about work? Thank god some are willing to work in the world.

    (Original post by e aí rapaz)
    I'm having a discussion about personal principles and you're bringing national politics into it :rolleyes:

    And you're calling me work-shy even though I already told you that I've been working in different jobs since I was 16. Through uni. Over 10 years without being unemployed.

    I'm done responding to you now.
    Politics is relevant. People vote based on the principles of a government.

    The people on this thread are encouraging a work-shy attitude. No two ways about it.
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    I agree with you but this is my point. It's a difficult question but it's happening. It may not be a family but a student may need a job to pay their rent. A graduate may need any job to pay bills and rent. Someone may lose their job or become redundant and need just any job available as quickly as possible to keep up their financial commitments. It happens to people all the time
    Maybe your right, maybe it needs legislation. But I think the number of people who are in SUCH a desperate situation is not that high. Most graduates live at home rent-free! And MOST jobs do not request this kind of thing, let's remember that. So it's not like people are saying, "I'd rather do nothing than an unpaid trial". What I'm saying is just, "Wouldn't you rather take a job without an unpaid trial than one with one?".
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    (Original post by abc:))
    Keep telling yourself that's why you can't get it up
    Funny, that's exactly what a hippo once said to me
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    Tell me what you like, the real world doesn't work like that. The Tories are only going to increase their power after Corbyn destroys Labour. I mean see the accusations below-about a short trial being "prostitution", being treated like "garbage". Incredible.

    "I'm telling YOU something". Tell me what you like, the UK public evidently disagrees. Workfare is in place for those too lazy to gain experience. I have done it, many I know have done, it is part of the world. If things get tough you try harder and take every opportunity to add to your CV. Not turn down a trial and spend the next couple of weeks looking for another interview.



    Doing a short trial-"prostituting yourself".

    Getting paid a good salary after a three day delay "working for nothing".

    Doing a good job-"other people have some self respect".

    That people think doing a three day trial is the same as being a prostitute is exactly what is wrong with benefits in the UK.




    You think a three day trial is unreasonable...incredible. The public has spoken by voting Tory. You say "the employer is being unreasonable". The public say no-YOU are being unreasonable with your work-shy attitude.

    We can argue this until the cows come home. Bottom line is that the public have spoken with a Tory majority in the House of Commons-welfare is being reformed and workfare introduced so that people DO have to be earning or learning. If you are not-get some experience like everyone else does. Earn or learn, that is the way of the working world. Ideally earn and learn, but at least do one. if a short trial is too much to ask-well you probably aren't that keen on the job anyway. Leave the chance for someone with a proper attitude to go in and get the chance.



    Getting a three day trial before then getting paid a good salary makes someone "Disposable garbage".

    The left really have an entitlement culture that I hope the Tories can fix.
    Employment should mean EMPLOYMENT. Either hire them or don't. If its what the free market wants, let them do it. I would never sell my soul out like some of the stupid souls who surrendered their time to do these worthless internships or "trial" employment positions. Sadly there is a demand now for this type of thing. It's not entitlement at the end of the day but its not a fair thing either. Labour should ALWAYS be paid for. I just laugh at the schmucks who don't value their time at all. And you think an internship leads to a good salary? God you are deluded. Heck, in Oz, their essentially selling internships for law students at $22,000 a piece for the drip of experience it gives and they don't even get paid. People who willingly do this kind of stupid voluntary work don't deserve work because they don't really value themselves at all so why should an employer value them
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    From my link

    "Having spoken to the Pay and Work Credits Unit at HM Revenue and Customs they have confirmed this is illegal under the National Minimum Wages Act and are taking my case up."
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    I really think people are being too difficult about this. Employers who do this aren't exploiting people, they are just making sure they don't make the effort to get you on the payroll, issue you company equipment (e.g laptops), sort out all the HR paperwork and then get rid of you.
    This is what agencies are for.
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    (Original post by marco14196)
    Employment should mean EMPLOYMENT. Either hire them or don't. If its what the free market wants, let them do it. I would never sell my soul out like some of the stupid souls who surrendered their time to do these worthless internships or "trial" employment positions. Sadly there is a demand now for this type of thing. It's not entitlement at the end of the day but its not a fair thing either. Labour should ALWAYS be paid for. I just laugh at the schmucks who don't value their time at all. And you think an internship leads to a good salary? God you are deluded. Heck, in Oz, their essentially selling internships for law students at $22,000 a piece for the drip of experience it gives and they don't even get paid. People who willingly do this kind of stupid voluntary work don't deserve work because they don't really value themselves at all so why should an employer value them
    We are taking about a three day trial here. Not her paying £20k for anything.

    She has two choices;
    1) Refuse the trial, stay on JSA and eventually get out on workfare which is like the trial but longer and no job at the end of it.

    2) Take the trial, and maybe get a job. Rather than spend the next three days watching TV and applying for more jobs (only then to probably turn them down anyway).

    (Original post by Profesh)
    This is what agencies are for.
    Small employers don't like agencies since they also charge one way or another...

    My firm specifically say no CV's from recruitment agencies and they employ hundreds of people. They are just looking for a cut of money for doing no work-they are the biggest parasites going
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    (Original post by abc:))
    Don't put limits on yourself; guys can be prostitutes too
    can we call a truce on this thing? I think we're both run out of ammunation now.

    I'd rather save my venom for mr.torymilkshake.
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    Two of my employers did this for me-they said prove you are good and we will keep you on. They said the trial will be up to a week, but they offered me the job after a few days.

    I really think people are being too difficult about this. Employers who do this aren't exploiting people, they are just making sure they don't make the effort to get you on the payroll, issue you company equipment (e.g laptops), sort out all the HR paperwork and then get rid of you.

    I really think that people should be prepared to work for free for a few days if it may well lead to a job. I mean are they really going to be exploiting if the trial is only three days? Unlikely in my view. I just think people need to be more ambitious and willing to make themselves employable in this case. I mean compared to staying on JSA and then having to go on to workfare this is a better chance.

    Sorry to be harsh, but I just think that someone who takes such an attitude to work needs to pull themselves together and really show they want to work. As much as I criticise EU immigration, they want to work hard much more than some in the UK evidently. I mean three days work can lead to a job? The OP will really be making things difficult for themselves by taking such a lackadaisical attitude in my view.

    I like you, but I respectully disagree with you here
    Don't apologize for disagreeing with me; friendships are more interesting when you're not kissing up to eachother's arses all the time :lol:

    In terms of part-time jobs, I think the amount of time that OP mentioned is unnecessary. If the employer wanted to see if the candidate would do well in the job, then give them a day's work so that you can observe them. But three? How are the two extra days going to be any different from the first typical day?

    I think the long unpaid work trials are only useful for actual full-time jobs e.g. if you were doing a work placement for a certain amount of time and wanted to be hired by the end of it. For part-time jobs, you're meant to have a feel of what a typical day at work would be like. However, if the employer mentioned that these three days were essential 'training days', then I'd completely understand.
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    (Original post by thecatwithnohat)
    Don't apologize for disagreeing with me; friendships are more interesting when you're not kissing up to eachother's arses all the time :lol:

    In terms of part-time jobs, I think the amount of time that OP mentioned is unnecessary. If the employer wanted to see if the candidate would do well in the job, then give them a day's work so that you can observe them. But three? How are the two extra days going to be any different from the first typical day?

    I think the long unpaid work trials are only useful for actual full-time jobs e.g. if you were doing a work placement for a certain amount of time and wanted to be hired by the end of it. For part-time jobs, you're meant to have a feel of what a typical day at work would be like. However, if the employer mentioned that these three days were essential 'training days', then I'd completely understand.
    I agree with you in terms of for long term jobs longer trials are fine. It is just your expectations-for me three days isn't that long. Like I said above, refuse and you won't be earning anything in the next three days anyway and even after that. In my view anyway.
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    (Original post by e aí rapaz)
    Maybe your right, maybe it needs legislation. But I think the number of people who are in SUCH a desperate situation is not that high. Most graduates live at home rent-free! And MOST jobs do not request this kind of thing, let's remember that. So it's not like people are saying, "I'd rather do nothing than an unpaid trial". What I'm saying is just, "Wouldn't you rather take a job without an unpaid trial than one with one?".
    I think the number of people in that situation is probably higher than you think graduates might live at home but I don't know any graduates who live rent free in their family home, everyone I know contributes rent or bills or both. And yeah I get what you're saying obviously I would rather have a job without an unpaid trial BUT if there wasn't another job available, and I needed a job, I would take that unpaid trial personally. Depends on the situation and how much you need money
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    Small employers don't like agencies since they also charge one way or another...

    My firm specifically say no CV's from recruitment agencies and they employ hundreds of people. They are just looking for a cut of money for doing no work-they are the biggest parasites going
    The service they provide exists, in part, to mitigate precisely the risk that you cited in defence of firms who would exploit free labour. Believe it or not, but 'I don't want to pay' isn't an ethically tenable position: if, as an employer, you aren't prepared to assume the marginal risk necessary to recruit in compliance with legal standards, then you can't afford to run a business in a country that protects the rights of its workforce.

    Someone in the OP's situation—not an ex-convict, nor even long-term unemployed, but with six years' previous experience within that sector—might well capitulate to such an arrangement out of desperation: the fact that 'desperation' can make one so suggestible is the very raison d'être of employment law.

    If you think a three-day unpaid trial is reasonable for a job requiring at most three hours' rudimentary induction and training, perhaps South Africa would be more your speed.
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    Hell no. To even suggest a thing just shows that they're a joke and I'd refuse to work for such idiots in the first place. If these idiots think you should do three days unpaid as a trial, how do you think they're going to be once they've actually employed you?

    If you give them an inch, they'll take a mile. I would tell them to shove it where the sun don't shine before leaving the interview on my own terms. Let some other mug take the job.

    (Original post by SuperWolfPaws)
    i have 6 years retail experience already.
    So why are you allowing yourself to be walked all over then? Defend yourself and fight your corner. With 6 years experience you should know better than to allow them to do this. They want you and your six years experience so sell it to them and don't be afraid to stick it to them if they're not prepared to respect you as an experienced professional. Develop a backbone as they're taking the piss out of you.

    You have 6 years experience, an education and you can offer this to them. If they want to go and hire someone with less experience then let them but then they will not benefit or gain from your experience. Its their own choice if they want to skimp out on paying you what you deserve. It is not bragging or being bigheaded or arrogant if you can back it up. Tell them straight and if they don't like it then tell them to lump it.

    The interview process is not for a company to dictate to you how its going to be. Its for you to negotiate as well and find a common ground that works in the interests of both parties.

    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    The left really have an entitlement culture that I hope the Tories can fix.
    Oh what complete nonsense. I'm a minarchist and free-market capitalist but you are talking complete and utter nonsense. If someone is working for you, you pay them what they are owed for that time, even if its a trial period.

    You claim the left have an entitlement culture but all you are doing is highlighting a culture of exploitation, which is disgusting and rife in the UK. if someone works for three days then they deserve to be paid for three days work.

    If someone asked me to do three days unpaid work I'd first laugh in disbelief and then I'd firmly tell them where to go because what I can offer their company in ten minutes alone is worth at least something, nevermind three days.

    If you allow yourself to be walked all over then you will be and if you're gutless and scared to stick it to people trying to take the piss out of you, then they will take the piss out of you.

    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    The people on this thread are encouraging a work-shy attitude. No two ways about it.
    And you're encouraging exploitation.
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    depends- look at glassdoor for advice from people who did the application process, did the same happen to them If so maybe depending on the research findings on the internet, and who they are.
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    (Original post by Profesh)
    The service they provide exists, in part, to mitigate precisely the risk that you cited in defence of firms who would exploit free labour. Believe it or not, but 'I don't want to pay' isn't an ethically tenable position: if, as an employer, you aren't prepared to assume the marginal risk necessary to recruit in compliance with legal standards, then you can't afford to run a business in a country that protects the rights of its workforce.

    Someone in the OP's situation—not an ex-convict, nor even long-term unemployed, but with six years' previous experience within that sector—might well capitulate to such an arrangement out of desperation: the fact that 'desperation' can make one so suggestible is the very raison d'être of employment law.
    Nice speeches coming out on here. Doesn't change the fact that trials are normal, not evil, and the OP if turns it down will be watching TV for the next few weeks rather than earning and working. Two clear, simple choices;
    1) Take the opportunity, get a job at the end of it if they peform.
    2) Earn nothing, go to sign on and get sent to work for free anyway under workfare. Do what is best for you-take option 1. If you have a job that has no trial-take it. If however you don't-do what is actually best for you.
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    (Original post by i<3milkshake)
    Nice speeches coming out on here. Doesn't change the fact that trials are normal, not evil, and the OP if turns it down will be watching TV for the next few weeks rather than earning and working. Two clear, simple choices;
    1) Take the opportunity, get a job at the end of it if they peform.
    2) Earn nothing, go to sign on and get sent to work for free anyway under workfare. Do what is best for you-take option 1. If you have a job that has no trial-take it. If however you don't-do what is actually best for you.
    3. Stand up for yourself and negotiate a trial of one day in which you prove yourself worthy to that particular company in what you can offer.

    Anyone that allows a company to dictate terms to them is an idiot. If you let yourself be walked all over, they will walk all over you. Just accepting the terms set is not the best thing to do. It screams desperation and it screams mug. Even if you have no other offers lined up with other companies you want to make it look like you do. You need to sell yourself.
 
 
 
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