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China have done us over. watch

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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I assumed it was buying stakes in our firms although its business debt anyway, not government.
    Yes, they are buying companies and stakes in investment projects.

    What's more worrying is that apparently their expertise is needed (so the government keep saying) on the nuclear power stations and HS2, not just their money. This from the country that blows up massive chemical plants and surrounds the facts with secrecy and has had multiple horrendous crashes on their high speed network.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    Sure but when the debate about Trident comes round again, you can be sure the Conservatives will start saying "we don't know what's going to happen with China...."

    And also is this investment a gift that the Chinese are giving us, or is it loans ie we will have to repay it with interest.

    Because this now starts to sound like debt, or more borrowing from abroad.

    Is it not time for the country to start living within its means, rather than having a Chancellor who is going cap in hand to the Chinese, trying to layer more borrowing on to our existing borrowing.
    Trident is long term strategy. When you invent a crystal ball that can 100% accurately predict the future and it says that we won't need nuclear weapons, I'll campaign for their abolition myself.

    Its foreign investment just like any other. China is buying shares in UK businesses, the UK is selling shares for cash. There's no debt or borrowing on our part. Your interpretation of it is bizarre to say the least.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    Sure but when the debate about Trident comes round again, you can be sure the Conservatives will start saying "we don't know what's going to happen with China...."

    And also is this investment a gift that the Chinese are giving us, or is it loans ie we will have to repay it with interest.

    Because this now starts to sound like debt, or more borrowing from abroad.

    Is it not time for the country to start living within its means, rather than having a Chancellor who is going cap in hand to the Chinese, trying to layer more borrowing on to our existing borrowing.
    It's a mutually beneficial investment.

    They invest capital and receive a return on that investment.

    We get the capital to invest in infrastructure.
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    (Original post by Dumachi)
    China is still definitely communist.
    Can you say why you think so? In every meaningful way, their economy is anything but Communist, although there are still bits and bobs of hangover in the centrally managed economy that are declining rapidly, like state owned banks, they are getting rid of them.

    The only real remnant is the name, but the modern Communist Party of China seems to be essentially a money-making enterprise for its members.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    So lets let China run our strategic resource and rip us off whilst we are at it...

    Tories: Letting communists run our Nuclear Industry :yy:
    The Chinese ad by running out nuckeR industry. They're merely offering investment and support in building it.

    Nuclear engineering has been dead for sometime. You either go into a mutually beneficial arrangement and partner with somebody who has the expertise (China for example). You throw money and resources at the problem until you develop your own industrial base. ( incredibly expensive and resource heavy way of doing things as well as not being very safe as you have to relearn all the mistakes again. Or you don't bother.

    As we need nuclear as part of the UKs energy solution you're left with an expensive option, or a cost effective option.

    Why you think we shouldn't go for the cost effective option amazes me.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Can you say why you think so? In every meaningful way, their economy is anything but Communist, although there are still bits and bobs of hangover in the centrally managed economy that are declining rapidly, like state owned banks, they are getting rid of them.

    The only real remnant is the name, but the modern Communist Party of China seems to be essentially a money-making enterprise for its members.
    Here it says its the ruling and founding party: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_China
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The only real remnant is the name, but the modern Communist Party of China seems to be essentially a money-making enterprise for its members.
    I take it you don't know much about Chinese politics then? You are correct that they have a pretty liberal economy but the politics is decidedly communist. There is one party. If you oppose the party you will be imprisoned. There is no concept of free speech. The media and internet is controlled and monitored by the government. There is no concept of free movement in China. If you or I wanted to travel to certain areas we would have to be accompanied by a government official. Christians are openly oppressed by the government. The list goes on.

    If you do what the government say, you can do very well in China - but that is not democracy by a country mile.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    It's a mutually beneficial investment.

    They invest capital and receive a return on that investment.

    We get the capital to invest in infrastructure.

    Who pays back the "return on that investment"?

    This sounds like PFI, we get to fund infrastructure investment and investors receive a return on the investment.

    What could go wrong.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    I take it you don't know much about Chinese politics then? You are correct that they have a pretty liberal economy but the politics is decidedly communist. There is one party. If you oppose the party you will be imprisoned. There is no concept of free speech. The media and internet is controlled and monitored by the government. There is no concept of free movement in China. If you or I wanted to travel to certain areas we would have to be accompanied by a government official. Christians are openly oppressed by the government. The list goes on.

    If you do what the government say, you can do very well in China - but that is not democracy by a country mile.
    None of those things makes something communist... That is a police state. You can have a police state without it being a communist police state. China is probbaly closer to Pinochet's Chile now than it is to it's Maoist past. Was Pinochet a communist?

    A key part of communism is Marxism where the economy and politics are very much the same thing. You can't have "liberal" economies with capitalist markets and call it communism. That's some impressive doublethink and it partly why the Chinese regime will keep it;s supposed communist credentials, it's a form of mind control as it plays to the morally positive aspects of communist philosophy that will appeal to a lot of people.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    Who pays back the "return on that investment"?

    This sounds like PFI, we get to fund infrastructure investment and investors receive a return on the investment.

    What could go wrong.
    The end user. Or if it's nationalised, the tax payer who may or may not be the end user..

    Tell me what could go wrong if nobody financed HS2 or power stations?
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    The end user. Or if it's nationalised, the tax payer who may or may not be the end user..

    Tell me what could go wrong if nobody financed HS2 or power stations?
    No doubt the sky will fall in if nobody finances HS2 just like the armaggedon that was caused between 2010 and 2015 when the evil Tories cut investment and the country ground to a halt.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    No doubt the sky will fall in if nobody finances HS2 just like the armaggedon that was caused between 2010 and 2015 when the evil Tories cut investment and the country ground to a halt.
    You only think short term don't you. I bet you vote labour and are in the extreme left of the political spectrum.

    Infrastructure projects like hs2 and power stations are required to keep transport links not capable of transporting people and keeping the lights on.

    Look at it this way. Without investment in infrastructure to boost the economy, further cuts will be required to welfare spending.
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    (Original post by MatureStudent36)
    Infrastructure projects like hs2 and power stations are required to keep transport links not capable of transporting people and keeping the lights on.

    Look at it this way. Without investment in infrastructure to boost the economy, further cuts will be required to welfare spending.
    So what you are saying is it's right to borrow, and load more debt on to existing debt, to finance "infrastructure".

    And what will happen in a few years time, no doubt there will be more "infrastructure" that needs to be built then. How will we pay for that? Borrowing I guess.

    And so the cycle goes on.

    I'm sure as 'maturestudent' you have been around the block long enough to have heard arguments for "borrowing to finance investment" in every decade....when does this borrowing stop?
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    So what you are saying is it's right to borrow, and load more debt on to existing debt, to finance "infrastructure".

    And what will happen in a few years time, no doubt there will be more "infrastructure" that needs to be built then. How will we pay for that? Borrowing I guess.

    And so the cycle goes on.

    I'm sure as 'maturestudent' you have been around the block long enough to have heard arguments for "borrowing to finance investment" in every decade....when does this borrowing stop?
    China's invested. We haven't borrowed from them. It's part of the what's called the financing decision.

    Borrowing money for investment in infrastructure is fine to do if the investment gives a return. Hs2 for example, as well as being require offers a financial return.
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    (Original post by MagicNMedicine)
    Who pays back the "return on that investment"?

    This sounds like PFI, we get to fund infrastructure investment and investors receive a return on the investment.

    What could go wrong.
    PFI was comparable to the likes of Help To Buy whereby government gurantees to pay the debt but all the profit is reaped by the banks or companies managing the hospitals.

    This seema more like your standard equity investment wherby the Chinese are buying the bonds relating to this particular investment albeit i do think we've guaranteed a minimum price rather than the debt.

    I have to say that despite my love of the private sector, i'd probably be inclined to pay for it ourselves if it can't be built without subsidy or guarantees.

    Then again, I wouldn't have stepped in and prevented the market choosing coal (the markets choice) to begin with.
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    Weighing in on the side debates..

    Nations with property rights are not communist almost by definition, look to Cuba before 06 as a better example. It also has no real command economy so its not socialist (would need to know more to declare it capitalist or social Democrat). The best comparison is probably the UK between 75-85.

    Mature, Magic is neither a Labour voter nor remotely idiotic. Your probably just struggling with his style of debate.
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    ByEeek
    Fullofsurprises


    Just read this interesting article on what exactly China is.

    http://www.pieria.co.uk/articles/is_..._fascist_state


    Article goes into more detail but this bit is most relevant to this discussion as to whether it is a communist country.

    "Few would denythat China is a capitalist society, with an economy organized around and drivenby corporate profit. Thus, at the outset we can dismiss suggestions orarguments like those of Clegg that present China as socialist and/or communist.If those words have any meaning, they cannot apply to a capitalist society (andif China is not capitalist, the Pope is not a Catholic)."
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    Every empire has its day. Its been many a year since we have seen large scale English out migration abroad. China will soon have to grapple with some of the immigration issues which we did in the west 40 years ago and the first off the plane will be the northern English community.
 
 
 
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