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    (Original post by NaTaLiiA513)
    So there is a sqwiggly red line under a term so that means that it doesn't exist? :rolleyes:

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/de...h/Islamophobia

    Oxford dictionary recognises it.
    OK. Let's look at the definition you cite.

    "Dislike of or prejudice against Islam or Muslims, especially as a political force."

    Now, considering that Islam contains the permission for: slavery, sex with slaves, the killing of opponents of Islam, gender discrimination and religious descrimination, and all Muslims believe that these elements are the will of their god, is "dislike or prejudice" against these things really such a bad thing?

    Do you consider these things to be acceptable or objectionable?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Clear bollox!

    I have been called an Islamophobe for highlighting the verses from the Quran that permit slavery, wife beating and the permission to kill those who oppose Islam.
    How about passages in the bible that advocating killing homosexuals?
    I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.
    Jews are a religion, Muslims are a religion.
    That's about it. I'm done discussing with you.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    I have often heard people imply that the reason antisemitism is seen as worse than Islamophobia is due to them nasty "Zionists".

    But there is a good reason why Islamophobia is not as bad as antisemitism. Islamophobia is prejudice against followers of Islam. It is hostility towards people due to their religious beliefs. Thus it is no different to hostility towards Christians, or in fact hostility towards anyone because of their ideological beliefs. It's not different to disliking someone for being socialist, conservative, libertarian, feminist, whatever...

    Antisemitism, on the other hand, is racist bigotry. Jews are not only a religious group, but a race. Thinking that Jews are inferior, that they are greedy, that they are elitist; these are all racist views.

    Racism is worse than bigotry against people for the opinions they have. An ethnic Jew can't stop being a Jew, nor does his race speak for him or tell you anything about his personality. On the other hand, A Muslim may leave the faith and no longer consider himself a Muslim, and your ideological beliefs most certainly do tell you something about your character, especially when they are as big a part of your life as a religion is to religious people. One could feel that Islam is repulsive, and then go on to conclude that anyone who follows the religion must be of such a contrary mind to oneself that one would find them very dislikable. This would be an ignorant view in my opinion, as the world really isn't so straight-forward. But I hardly think it is comparable to racism.
    Nazi Germany was a time when people were unable to speak otherwise the state would be on to them. Freedom of speech was not allowed. Innocent people were attacked and if you dared to stand up for them that was it for you. Violence against peaceful people, silencing those brave enough to speak out...that was Nazi Germany.

    Today we are seeing a time when if you speak out against the damage being done the PC brigade will have you. Freedom of speech is a luxury, not a right. Our communications are being monitored more and more.
    If anyone dares to stand up for freedom of speech, well, Je suis Charlie.
    Violence, being forced to accept the destruction of civilised cultures, is being rammed down the throats of citizens. Violence and the denial of democracy against good people has returned.

    Do I have a problem with all Muslims? No. Only those who are in a state of denial about the problems.
    Do I have a problem with Islam? No. Islam teaches one God, and the Abrahamic religions aren't really all that different.
    Do I have a problem with the invasion of barbarian hordes across Europe? Yes, Just ask German residents who have to live near the migrants what they think. I bet everyone there is praying that they won't have to be near them.

    There is quite clearly a Muslim problem in Europe and the UK.
    This is something that Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, all other religions except Islam, haven't tried to do.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...orse-plot.html

    The desire to see a different legal system is a huge cultural clash. As said above, no other religion wants their own laws in another country;
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...law-in-UK.html

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2015...inst-infidels/

    A look to the prison situation should be worrying for any sane person;
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...s-prisons.html

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...042802560.html

    Sweden has taken the leftie, "racist" to criticise view. And look what has happened to them;
    http://swedenreport.org/2015/05/18/p...nes-in-sweden/
    http://swedenreport.org/2014/10/29/s...l-no-go-zones/

    Our very security is at stake and either we are in danger or out civil rights are reduced. Oh joys, we are already more closely watched and our conversations recorded than even citizens under the Nazis;
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ad-of-MI5.html


    None of the above problems apply to any other group nearly quite as much.
    And what makes it worse is that it is supposedly "racist" not to accept a different culture. Well let us examine that shall we;
    A woman wears a Burkha in the UK. She will probably be fine.
    A woman wears a short skirt in the searing Dubai heat. She will be in serious trouble.
    Double standards? When Westerners go to the Middle East they respect the culture and modify their behaviour to please the hosts, yet in the UK that isn't the case. Racism?
    Give me a break. Muslims have already been given plenty of tolerance. There is no racism, just genuine concerns.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    If you're going to engage in personal attacks I won't bother responding.
    Jews being killed for being Jewish is comparable to Muslims being killed for being Muslim.
    OK. I retract the "grow up" comment.

    So, in light of that, do you claim that an attractive 18 year old woman from the Bosnian Muslim demographic would have been spared gang rape by Serbian paramilitaries by denying Allah and Muhammad?
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    (Original post by jeremy1988)
    I would have to say that I am Islamophobic because I fear the influence of Islam as a political force.

    However, I don't hate individual Muslims for following Islam. I think a lot of them probably don't know what they're following or were brainwashed by their families into think it's right.

    Ironically, one of the things I dislike about Islam is that it can be anti-semitic. I don't like their views on Israel, and I have been disturbed by some of the stuff I hear Muslims saying about Jewish people. That has done more to turn me against Islamic culture and religion than anything else could have. Their views on homosexuality and women's rights are also a force I don't want to see in Western society.

    I feel like my left is gone now, the one that cared about women's rights and freedom of expression. Now the left is just like the right, appeasing the followers of some Abrahamic religion and telling us we're not allowed to criticise them because they're foreigners. Oh, but it was fine to criticise Christianity when we were fighting cultural forces associated with that. But now we just have to let Islamic cultural standards undo all our hard work in the name of tolerating other cultures. I'm not okay with women being told to cover their heads or dress modestly if they don't want to risk being raped by a Muslim man.

    Between the left's support for Islam and the right's support for Christianity, the values I've spent my whole life fighting against are now the values that will be forced on everyone one way or the other. I'm not happy about that. Christianity is just the lesser of two evils, because we'll only be sent back to the 1950's rather than the 7th century.
    PRSOM

    From the sahih Bukhari hadith
    "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

    I would welcome any Muslim apologist to explain the context in which this hadith is acceptable.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    OK. I retract the "grow up" comment.

    So, in light of that, do you claim that an attractive 18 year old woman from the Bosnian Muslim demographic would have been spared gang rape by Serbian paramilitaries by denying Allah and Muhammad?
    No. That's exactly the point im making. That Muslims are persecuted for being Muslims, just as Jews are persecuted for being Jews.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    How about passages in the bible that advocating killing homosexuals?
    Ooh, let me think about that....****ING WRONG!!! On every level!

    I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make.
    You said
    "When most people are accused of being Islamaphobic, they are launching personal attacks on Muslims themselves for being Muslims, rather than for their ideologies."

    I challenged you to substantiate that claim. I take it from your response that you cannot.

    Jews are a religion, Muslims are a religion.
    Yes, in some respects, but that is not the issue at hand here.

    That's about it. I'm done discussing with you.
    Why am I not surprised by this?
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No. That's exactly the point im making. That Muslims are persecuted for being Muslims, just as Jews are persecuted for being Jews.
    Seriously!?
    You actually belive that an attractive, 18 year-old Bosnian girl would have been spared gang rape by Serbian paramilitaries, simply by stating that they were not a Muslim?

    You are in serious denial!
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    (Original post by NaTaLiiA513)
    You can deny all you want Achaea but you're one of the usuals that participate in this behaviour. Criticism of Islam and repeated attempts to demonise Muslims are 2 very different things.
    I make 'repeated attempts to demonise Muslims'? Where have I ever done that, rather than criticise aspects of Islam? Show me. Cite some examples.

    (Original post by NaTaLiiA513)
    Many example in the religious forums. It would be a waste of time to copy and paste most of the threads in there to prove a point that has already been proven.
    Ohhhhhhh, I see, you're not even going to try to prove your little statement with any actual evidence. I thought Islam forbade lying?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    Seriously!?
    You actually belive that an attractive, 18 year-old Bosnian girl would have been spared gang rape by Serbian paramilitaries, simply by stating that they were not a Muslim?

    You are in serious denial!
    I've done absolutely no such thing and you keep misrepresenting what I've said and assigning to me positions I don't have.
    I have almost no idea what you are even arguing any more.

    Hating Jews for being Jews is the same as hating Muslims for being Muslims.

    I'm really, really not sure what point you are trying to make.
    You are obsessing over the labels of the Terms for no apparent reasons.
    Jews are a religion not an ethnicity, Muslims are a religion not an ethnicity, Christians are a religion not an ethnicity.

    All 3 have had both their religious beliefs criticised as well as been persecuted for merely being part of that religion.

    Again what point are trying to make? That's Jews being killed is worse than Muslims or Christians being killed? Sorry I don't agree. Persecution of all people is as bad as each other and it is entirely inappropriate to draw a distinction between Jews, Muslims or Christians being persecuted.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Again what point are trying to make? That's Jews being killed is worse than Muslims or Christians being killed? Sorry I don't agree. Persecution of all people is as bad as each other and it is entirely inappropriate to draw a distinction between Jews, Muslims or Christians being persecuted.
    OK, I get it.
    You think that being criticised for supporting slavery and wife beating is the same as being shipped off to the extermination camps because of who your parents are.

    I think we're done here.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    OK, I get it.
    You think that being criticised for supporting slavery and wife beating is the same as being shipped off to the extermination camps because of who your parents are.

    I think we're done here.
    For about the 5th or 6th time you've assigned to me a position I have never once claimed I had or even suggested. I'm not sure why you think i said that.
    I said Jews being shipped off to camps and killed is the same as Muslims being hunted down and killed in the Balkans for example.

    Criticising the ideologies of Islam is the same as criticising the ideologies of Judaism.
    I'm comparing apples with apples and you're comparing them with oranges.

    You keep for some bizarre reason claim that I am saying criticising quaran is the same as persecuting Jews- I have never said that nor do I think that.

    You're now throwing personal insults and getting snappy for no apparat reason.

    I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make. That criticising the quaran is not the same as persecuting Jews? Of course not but no one is claiming it is. I'm claiming persecuting Muslims is the same as persecuting Jews.

    No doubt that you'll not read what I've written and just reply yet again accusing me of stating that criticising the quaran is the same as killing Jews though.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    For about the 5th or 6th time you've assigned to me a position I have never once claimed I had or even suggested. I'm not sure why you think i said that.
    I said Jews being shipped off to camps and killed is the same as Muslims being hunted down and killed in the Balkans for example.

    Criticising the ideologies of Islam is the same as criticising the ideologies of Judaism.
    I'm comparing apples with apples and you're comparing them with oranges.

    You keep for some bizarre reason claim that I am saying criticising quaran is the same as persecuting Jews- I have never said that nor do I think that.

    You're now throwing personal insults and getting snappy for no apparat reason.

    I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make. That criticising the quaran is not the same as persecuting Jews? Of course not but no one is claiming it is. I'm claiming persecuting Muslims is the same as persecuting Jews.

    No doubt that you'll not read what I've written and just reply yet again accusing me of stating that criticising the quaran is the same as killing Jews though.
    You claimed that Islamophobia is as bad as anti-Semitism.

    Now you seem to have changed that position to "all persecution is equally bad". While still not entirely true, it is at least better than your original position.

    I don't recall insulting you. You seem highly sensitive and ready to take offence (as well as being rather keen on downplaying the historical treatment of Jews). Are you sure that you are a Jew, and not a Muslim?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    You claimed that Islamophobia is as bad as anti-Semitism.

    Now you seem to have changed that position to "all persecution is equally bad". While still not entirely true, it is at least better than your original position.

    I don't recall insulting you. You seem highly sensitive and ready to take offence (as well as being rather keen on downplaying the historical treatment of Jews). Are you sure that you are a Jew, and not a Muslim?
    My whole point is that you're unnecesarily and bizarely narrowing the definitions of both anti-semitism and Islamaphobia.
    Always look to the substance and not the label.

    What would you say is the equivalent of anti-semitism for Muslims and Islamaphobia for Jews?

    They are both used in a fairly all-encompassing manner.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    You claimed that Islamophobia is as bad as anti-Semitism.

    Now you seem to have changed that position to "all persecution is equally bad". While still not entirely true, it is at least better than your original position.

    I don't recall insulting you. You seem highly sensitive and ready to take offence (as well as being rather keen on downplaying the historical treatment of Jews). Are you sure that you are a Jew, and not a Muslim?
    Isn't it just easier to just say that you are not against any Muslims being persecuted to some extent for whatever reason whilst being against any persecutions of members of other religions/ethnicities.

    There's no reason to be so politically correct about it and I don't know why you need several posts trying to make that simple point whether it is morally right or not,.
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    (Original post by xaki90)
    Isn't it just easier to just say that you are not against any Muslims being persecuted to some extent for whatever reason whilst being against any persecutions of members of other religions/ethnicities.

    There's no reason to be so politically correct about it and I don't know why you need several posts trying to make that simple point whether it is morally right or not,.
    :confused:
    What are you on about?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    :confused:
    What are you on about?
    You are just arguing on what sort of persecutions could be worse depending on whom its directed upon. It is easier to just say that directly without being so vague.
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    (Original post by xaki90)
    You are just arguing on what sort of persecutions could be worse depending on whom its directed upon. It is easier to just say that directly without being so vague.
    Nope. Still no idea.
 
 
 
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