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    (Original post by Daftpunker)
    You guys hold the power. No one is putting a gun to your head making you go to uni. If you want to see a stop to a rise in fees unite and make a stand and refuse to pay it.
    Or they could do degrees in subjects which are fully funded, don't incur debt and which lead to jobs that this country actually needs, like Nursing, for example.

    People have no right to complain that they can't afford to go university - they can - there are plenty of subjects which don't charge tuition fees, it's just that loads of 18 year old's would rather go and study Drama or whatever, mostly because they don't know what else to do with their lives, and they feel insulted that it's not tax payer funded like Medicine. There's a reason that useless courses incur tuition fees - they're useless. No one else should be paying for a 3 year bender /finding yourself journey/academic ego stroke which results in working in Tesco for £6.70p/h.

    How many 20/30/40 somethings do you see going to study History/Art/Philosophy/Music/Drama etc for 'career' reasons? Very few, because in the real world, adults know that they need to bring something to the table that the current economy needs. The UK doesn't need more English Lit grads. It needs doctors, nurses, health professionals, engineers, construction workers etc.

    The amount of kids I see on here and other 'social media' sites celebrating getting into 3rd rate unis for 3rd rate degrees is infuriating. I feel sorry for them for being mislead by schools who just need to look good in league tables. People from Russell Groups with non-vocational degrees can't even get grad work, so why are these people being encouraged to take useless degrees at useless 'universities' (colleges offering degrees and ex-polys). We need more apprentices and young people on vocational degree courses. We don't need entitled 17/18 year olds whining that they have to - oh my God - pay for their own useless degree rather than the taxpayer. I wouldn't dare suggest, knowing what I know now, that any UK taxpayer should pay a penny of my tuition fees. I'll be paying it all back, rightly so.
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    Ok, I assumed you meant nationals for some reason. You are right about refugees. But if you can't afford to pay it back you don't - for the new fees you don't make payments until you are earning 21k and if you dip below this again, your payments stop. For the previous fees it is 15k. My friend earns just on the threshold and she pays £1 a month on her loan. It scales up or down depending on your wage so if you can't afford it you don't pay anything back and after 30 years (when I last checked) it gets written off. So no excuses on that side.
    That was very bright of you.
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    (Original post by Puddles the Monkey)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34733096



    Is this a return to a two tier system where the best education is a reserve for the wealthiest?
    Not surprised. Just another way to keep the poor working class people in the gutter. Rich people can afford to go to the best unis and get the best jobs, and this is just another way to keep and indeed widen the rich-poor divide.

    I blame whoever voted for the Tories on the tripling of tuition fees and for these latest plans. Shame on you!
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    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    You are serious that any idiot can scrap cars?, I bet if I did a poll 90%+ people can't do what you are saying anyone can do.
    If the poll asks "Can you scrap cars?" then maybe 90%+ (awfully high btw) would say that they can't. Why? Because most people do not know what it specifically entails.

    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    You are forgetting about all the tools required to break up the metal and you need people with high amounts of skill to wield this tools- its probably something you could learn in an Apprenticeship but it would require a lot of learning to master its certainly not something simple as you are claiming.
    This depends on how much metal you want to extract from cars or other sources of metals.

    Taking platinum out of catalytic converters does not require more than basic tools, neither does taking lead plates out of car batteries which requires basic tools and gloves (affordable). If you want to absolutely strip every metal from say a car, then yes you will require special tools that require more knowledge, rather than skill, but which you could lead to use from youtube (don't believe me check for yourself). I reject the notion that you need advanced education to use some tools simplified for common use, regardless of what the education peddlers say (this includes university education imo but that's another matter).


    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    If stripping cars and other metals was so easy why don't people just do it themselves instead of going to the scrap dealers.


    Don't waste your energy becoming a strap dealer! Collect metals and sell them to scrap dealers. The whole refining process is not only expensive but would require higher start up capital, so not a viable option for most people. Read the front page. They even list average prices of metal scraps. http://www.scrapsales.co.uk/

    Btw I sold faulty hard drives on eBay and made £300 from a £40 pound investment in a week, believe me or not, a simple analysis of eBay sales should convince you that there are many basic ways of making a lot of money, all you need is a bit of initiative. That's the main reason why unqualified people don't do it, unqualified people probably tend to be lazy (an unfortunate truth). And people in general are lazy, that's why they sit down, watching TV and whining about the top arbitrary percent, the "rich" or "super rich", or whatever.

    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    You are also assuming there is a lot of scrap metal to go around that people would be willing to sell, you'd obviously have to compete with all the other scrap dealers as well and I'm not convinced that you would be able to make a living out of it(my family gave some scrap to a dealer during a cleanup of our house and if that wasn't the case we wouldn't have been giving them anything, most people sell their cars,computers,TVs etc and they get sold on to someone else.
    People haven't stopped buying cars, some cars depreciate in value very quickly, not all cars can be sold profitably (e.g. they may be in extreme disrepair), it costs money to dispose of a car, so they would be willing to sell them for lower prices than the sum of the cost of easily extractable metals.

    Just by clicking on the website I showed you, reviewing the prices, and considering the costs that removing basic metals like lead plates form car batteries etc...costs, and how difficult the process would be on YT, you should be able to see that it's a potentially profitable enterprise.

    You're not trying to become a scrap dealer! Your aim is to extract as much metals as you can profitably and sell them to scrap dealers. Done.

    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    If I opened a scrap dealer I don't think I would find that I had loads of customers, part of this is also you have a lot of business and marketing ability to make any business work something which a lot of people lack.

    Also, is it that cheap to rent out a garage?(on top of your current rent and you have to pay for all the tools and you may not have that much available as you haven't had a job).
    Again, not trying to become a scrap dealer. And if you sell metals cheaper than others sell metals, scrap dealers will begin to come to you.

    Renting out a garage is not that cheap, depending on where you rent out a garage, but there's always the possibility of obtaining loans at certain banks if your business plan is clear and clearly profitable or starting small. Buying one damaged car, storing it at a garage for a small period of time (e.g. renting a space in a garage for a few weeks/days), stripping it, reselling it, reinvesting profits etc...all while controlling your expenses and spending as little money as you have to on food and other stuff.
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    Oh god you really have no clue



    If you say so.

    My point from the beginning was that there is so much inequality with education and its not just in the UK.

    Back in those days in the UK, no one paid for tuition fees and that is a fact.

    If the Uk proposed to spend about a million pounds to build jails in Jamaica then surely they could cater for their own people.
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    (Original post by Blackstarr)
    That was very bright of you.
    Seeing as your argument is 'oh well everything was fine BACK IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS!!!!!' I really don't think you are one to speak about being bright. You didn't refer to refugees or anyone else for whom the usual loan does not apply so really if you wanted that to be your pivotal argument you should've made that clear.
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    (Original post by Blackstarr)
    If you say so.

    My point from the beginning was that there is so much inequality with education and its not just in the UK.

    Back in those days in the UK, no one paid for tuition fees and that is a fact.

    If the Uk proposed to spend about a million pounds to build jails in Jamaica then surely they could cater for their own people.
    So what? Back in those days women couldn't vote. Back in those days British people had black slaves. Does that make it ok? Are you 12???
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    (Original post by 4:20)
    Strong vibe that you're not in university yet. Probably haven't done A levels.
    I have done my A levels, now studying at university.
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    Seeing as your argument is 'oh well everything was fine BACK IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS!!!!!' I really don't think you are one to speak about being bright. You didn't refer to refugees or anyone else for whom the usual loan does not apply so really if you wanted that to be your pivotal argument you should've made that clear.
    that is not my argument and I have made my point clear, so, its down to the other person on how they take it.
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    So what? Back in those days women couldn't vote. Back in those days British people had black slaves. Does that make it ok? Are you 12???
    Not that far back.

    Education should be free end of.
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    When I say education, I mean further and higher education since it is free up until the age of 18.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    Or they could do degrees in subjects which are fully funded, don't incur debt and which lead to jobs that this country actually needs, like Nursing, for example.

    People have no right to complain that they can't afford to go university - they can - there are plenty of subjects which don't charge tuition fees, it's just that loads of 18 year old's would rather go and study Drama or whatever, mostly because they don't know what else to do with their lives, and they feel insulted that it's not tax payer funded like Medicine. There's a reason that useless courses incur tuition fees - they're useless. No one else should be paying for a 3 year bender /finding yourself journey/academic ego stroke which results in working in Tesco for £6.70p/h.

    How many 20/30/40 somethings do you see going to study History/Art/Philosophy/Music/Drama etc for 'career' reasons? Very few, because in the real world, adults know that they need to bring something to the table that the current economy needs. The UK doesn't need more English Lit grads. It needs doctors, nurses, health professionals, engineers, construction workers etc.

    The amount of kids I see on here and other 'social media' sites celebrating getting into 3rd rate unis for 3rd rate degrees is infuriating. I feel sorry for them for being mislead by schools who just need to look good in league tables. People from Russell Groups with non-vocational degrees can't even get grad work, so why are these people being encouraged to take useless degrees at useless 'universities' (colleges offering degrees and ex-polys). We need more apprentices and young people on vocational degree courses. We don't need entitled 17/18 year olds whining that they have to - oh my God - pay for their own useless degree rather than the taxpayer. I wouldn't dare suggest, knowing what I know now, that any UK taxpayer should pay a penny of my tuition fees. I'll be paying it all back, rightly so.
    Of certain classes.
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    (Original post by Blackstarr)
    Not that far back.

    Education should be free end of.
    Education is free up until the age of 18 here. If you want higher education which isn't necessary to get you a job or get you through your life, you pay for it. It's the same as buying anything else of value. You could rent a flat, you don't own it but that's not necessary to have a home; if you want to own a property, you buy it. You want a degree that you don't technically NEED, you buy it. Don't wanna pay for it, get a job or do an NHS funded degree. Simples.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Of certain classes.
    Well, the working classes are aware of it. Lots of working class mechanics, builders, electricians, hairdressers etc. The middle class too - lots of middle class healthcare professionals.
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    Education is free up until the age of 18 here. If you want higher education which isn't necessary to get you a job or get you through your life, you pay for it. It's the same as buying anything else of value. You could rent a flat, you don't own it but that's not necessary to have a home; if you want to own a property, you buy it. You want a degree that you don't technically NEED, you buy it. Don't wanna pay for it, get a job or do an NHS funded degree. Simples.
    What?

    The jobs you could get without a degree are minimum wage jobs and the money you get out of t hem is not enough for rent, utility bills etc.

    Why should people who want to become doctors(this is beneficial for society) pay for something(tuition fees) that is going to benefit their country.

    case closed.
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    (Original post by Blackstarr)
    What?

    The jobs you could get without a degree are minimum wage jobs and the money you get out of t hem is not enough for rent, utility bills etc.

    Why should people who want to become doctors(this is beneficial for society) pay for something that is going to benefit their country.
    There are plenty of people who don't have degrees and are in high jobs. I work in the NHS and there are lots of senior people with no formal qualifications at all, or the Trust has funded them to do a qualification later on at which time they don't even need it anyway. Experience counts for a lot. Also, having a degree is not the only qualification needed to get you a higher paid job. My mum is a legal executive which is the 'equivalent' of a solicitor. She gets paid the same. She doesn't have a degree or the LPC - she has a legal executive course through an institution called ILEX. Look at accountants - they need ACCA or ACA or whatever. You don't NEED a degree to do those courses, it just gives you exemptions from certain exams. Anyone can do those exams. My friend is in the process of qualifying and she didn't go to university at all, her employer took her on as an admin assistant and after 6 months decided to fund her through it. She will end up earning a lot as an accountant with no degree at all. You are making a huge error in saying that you only get minimum wage jobs without a degree because that is simply, categorically incorrect.

    I also think you are failing to understand that people who become doctors do not always 'benefit society'. Doctors in the NHS, sure. Plastic surgeons working privately however - not so much. You could argue that private plastic surgeons are capitalising on people's insecurities - is that still altruistic in your opinion? And I saw on your previous post that you think nurses and midwives shouldn't pay for education - they DON'T pay at the moment so I don't know what point you're trying to make there. The reason those courses are subsidised is because there is a national shortage of nurses and midwives so the NHS has to give people an incentive to train - the same is not true for doctors. People will always want to be doctors due to the status and the potential for a very high salary. Seeing as I noted that you are considering becoming a nurse, I would really encourage you to do some more research on this.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    Well, the working classes are aware of it. Lots of working class mechanics, builders, electricians, hairdressers etc. The middle class too - lots of middle class healthcare professionals.
    So equality of opportunity slips ever further into the distance. There are certain professions that gets shut down to the working and lower middle class. That's the point I'm making. Also working class kids who's parent did not go to uni are more likely to get dazzled by the drive to get everyone into uni. My parents new the importance fo the subject in employability afterwards, Mum did history, had to train as an accountant, Dad did chemistry and walked into a job. So I learned form their experience. (I know I am unemployed but physics is considered an employable subject :rolleyes:) Working class kids who's parents know none of this are more likely to end up doing degrees that are less likely t lead to graduate employment.

    When there are countries like Denmark that manage to pay their students, never mind a debt free system I will never get behind the way we are going with regards to higher education. It is a choice, not a necessity. Current tuition levels don't even over the entire cost of courses anyway, especially in the 'useful' science/enginnering/medicine subjects even if the graduates pay it all back, which they are not obliged too if they never earn enough. What do you want? A move to increased debt and mandatory repayment like in america?

    My main objection to it is that perpetuates an unequal society to be even more unequal in opportunity and outcome.

    Edit: I've just been looking into it and countries in the European economic area can get free degrees at Denmark... I wonder how that is for post grad... Their science courses are in English as well.
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    (Original post by Puddles the Monkey)
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-34733096



    Is this a return to a two tier system where the best education is a reserve for the wealthiest?
    A product of the sneaky conservative government changing things from under the noses of it's people. I see this ending very poorly indeed.
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    (Original post by Blackstarr)
    In Britain back in them days education(further and higher education) was for free and everything seemed to be alright, so, why can't it be the same now.
    Making HE free is unfair on those who don't need it, yet still have to pay for it. Given that only few people went to university in the days you mentioned, it was considered acceptable. But now that university is almost a cultural norm, there's way more students and universities to fund. This leaves us with some options:

    - Create US-style tuition fees (graduates have to pay upfront)
    - Borrow money (tried and tested; responsible for a recession)
    - Cut money from other departments (e.g NHS)
    - Limit student population (limits equality to HE access)
    - Create tuition fees and loan system (graduates pay, but only if they can)

    Naturally, the last option is the one that the government have chosen.
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    (Original post by infairverona)
    There are plenty of people who don't have degrees and are in high jobs. I work in the NHS and there are lots of senior people with no formal qualifications at all, or the Trust has funded them to do a qualification later on at which time they don't even need it anyway. Experience counts for a lot. Also, having a degree is not the only qualification needed to get you a higher paid job. My mum is a legal executive which is the 'equivalent' of a solicitor. She gets paid the same. She doesn't have a degree or the LPC - she has a legal executive course through an institution called ILEX. Look at accountants - they need ACCA or ACA or whatever. You don't NEED a degree to do those courses, it just gives you exemptions from certain exams. Anyone can do those exams. My friend is in the process of qualifying and she didn't go to university at all, her employer took her on as an admin assistant and after 6 months decided to fund her through it. She will end up earning a lot as an accountant with no degree at all. You are making a huge error in saying that you only get minimum wage jobs without a degree because that is simply, categorically incorrect.

    I also think you are failing to understand that people who become doctors do not always 'benefit society'. Doctors in the NHS, sure. Plastic surgeons working privately however - not so much. You could argue that private plastic surgeons are capitalising on people's insecurities - is that still altruistic in your opinion? And I saw on your previous post that you think nurses and midwives shouldn't pay for education - they DON'T pay at the moment so I don't know what point you're trying to make there. The reason those courses are subsidised is because there is a national shortage of nurses and midwives so the NHS has to give people an incentive to train - the same is not true for doctors. People will always want to be doctors due to the status and the potential for a very high salary. Seeing as I noted that you are considering becoming a nurse, I would really encourage you to do some more research on this.
    They have made things harder now, for instance to be a nurse you actually need to go uni and get a degree where as before it was not like that, you could just do a diploma and get qualified as a nurse

    Things are changing and that is why there is a lot of inequality within education.

    Also, student loans will make you have lots of debt especially if you live in London as the rent is soo high.

    I feel like I have made my point and made it clear.

    #Case closed.
 
 
 
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