The idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa is crap watch

QE2 · 08-11-2015 15:26

(Original post by MJlover)
I'd love to wear the burqa someday

Yeah, but you also support the stoning of adulterers, so I don't think your opinion on anything in this field is anything more than the parroting of religious dogma, as opposed to a reasoned and rational position.

QE2 · 08-11-2015 15:29

(Original post by MJlover)
nah Islam greatly respects the modesty of all human beings and encourage us to cover to an extent even with our spouse, male and female

Why? What purpose does being ashamed of your "god given" natural form serve? Why does Allah not want a husband and wife to enjoy each other's naked bodies? I mean, have you ever tried it? It is seriously good fun!

QE2 · 08-11-2015 15:32

(Original post by HAnwar)
Yeah you're right.
Wearing next to nothing isn't as oppressive as the burqa.
It's much worse.

What is actually wrong with the human body?
Remember, this is the form that Allah created for us? Why make us this way then tell us it is shameful and we must cover up?
It just makes no sense.
A bit like creating males with a foreskin then telling us we must cut it off.

QE2 · 08-11-2015 15:38

(Original post by PPF)
Here is a little test that proves that Islamic veils are a form of patriarchal oppression on women, while bikinis aren't: If men didn't exist, would women wear burqas at the beach or when swimming? Is the burqa practical in the situations where a bikini is generally worn? Because, I reckon that if men didn't exist, women wouldn't be wearing veils on the beach or while swimming. They would be wearing very little, if anything, as clothes are not practical for these activities.

This proof is invalid for the following reasons:

1) You cannot prove that the veil itself is a form of oppression unless you are able to conduct either an accurate survey or some form of a natural experiment. Many Muslim women want to wear the veil out of choice (derived from their set of beliefs).
2) The veil is a positive function of the existence of Men. So of-course if there weren't males there would be no need to wear the veil in the first place.
3) Regarding the swimming example, there are alternatives to swimming in a Burqa such as swimming in areas segregated by gender.

No, it is a valid test. As you have pointed out, without the influence of men, women would behave differently with regards to the burkha - because it's function is determined by ideology.
Without the influence of men, women would behave the same (or wear less) with regards to the bikini, because its function is determined by practicality.

QE2 · 08-11-2015 16:05

(Original post by Mentally)
This thread stinks of ignorance.
So the only way to not be oppressed is to go out decorate yourself infront of men to recieve attention?

The usual apologists' straw man. Women who wear bikinis (almost exclusively in the context of a beach/pool/sun scenario), do not wear them all the time. When they are at work, they wear something suitable for the situation, and when they are at home they will wear something that suits, and when they go clubbing they will wear something different.
The woman wearing the burkha wears it to every public occasion and scenario, regardless of its practicality.

You are aware that married women and lesbians wear bikinis? And that women wear bikinis in all female situation and when alone?

Women wear bikinis for two reasons.
Primariliy for practicality. Secondarily for display.

And here is the sad part you seem to be deluded in thinking that the women are forced to wear a burkah?. Sure theyre raised to dress modestly but by no stretch of definiton can that be misinterpeted as forced, what evidence do you have to claim that majority of muslims are forced to wear a burkah.

Calm down. No need to swear!
How about the countries (usually those seen as more fully implementing sharia) where there is punishment for not wearing it?

... and when a muslim girl says' no i actually want to wear the burkah i want to dress modestly, you guys respond 'poor muslim girl you've brainwashed look how opeessed she is' check the first 2 pages of this thread to see what i mean. Lmao im done

What reason would a woman have for wearing a burqa other than the requiremints of religious doctrine? If the "not indoctrinated" argument was valid, we would see people other than Muslimahs wearing the burqa, yet we don't. The only ones who do are ones who are influenced by doctrine (you are aware of the meaning of indoctrinated?)

Have you not noticed the correlation between devoutness to fundamental literalism of a country/community, and the number of women wearing the burqa? Or is that just coincidence?

QE2 · 08-11-2015 16:19

(Original post by Unkempt_One)
Hey, if some Muslim women actually like dressing like they're at war with the visible spectrum, who am I to judge?

The invisible spectrum is more important. Studies have shown that women who wear the burqa often suffer from vitamin D deficiency, which can cause rickets in their children when pregnant.
The incidence of rickets in the UK is at its highest for 50 years.

Josb · 08-11-2015 16:28

(Original post by hellodave5)
All I can think is how scary they all look... and that they must have vitamin D deficiency.

Both outfits were designed to scare.

Marco1 · 08-11-2015 16:30

(Original post by KingBradly)
I agree with your post, but regarding the part in bold; yes, exactly, more people should understand this. If you want to look at a society which is truly obsessed with sex, just look at Saudi Arabia. You cannot avoid their desperate attempts to suppress and repress sexuality. It is everywhere. There is a Zen tale that goes like this: A senior monk and a junior monk were traveling together. At one point, they came to a river with a strong current. As the monks were preparing to cross the river, they saw a very young and beautiful woman also attempting to cross. The young woman asked if they could help her. The senior monk carried this woman on his shoulder, forded the river and let her down on the other bank. The junior monk was very upset, but said nothing. They both were walking and senior monk noticed that his junior was suddenly silent and enquired “Is something the matter, you seem very upset?” The junior monk replied, “As monks, we are not permitted a woman, how could you then carry that woman on your shoulders?” The senior monk replied, “I left the woman a long time ago at the bank, however, you seem to be carrying her still.”

Saudi Arabia, and many oppressive Islamic cultures, are the junior monk, but to the absolute extreme.

Fair enough. To say it is 'all about sex' is not a great way of saying it, as Islam is not only about sex. However the sexual gratification of the man is a topic well attended to in Sharia or if you prefer, the Koran.

MJlover · 08-11-2015 17:12

(Original post by QE2)
Yeah, but you also support the stoning of adulterers, so I don't think your opinion on anything in this field is anything more than the parroting of religious dogma, as opposed to a reasoned and rational position.

I didn't say that I thought the burqa was compulsory. I'd wear it because I feel it.

QE2 · 08-11-2015 17:17

(Original post by MJlover)
I didn't say that I thought the burqa was compulsory. I'd wear it because I feel it.

And what is it you "feel"?

MJlover · 08-11-2015 17:19

(Original post by QE2)
And what is it you "feel"?

to cover myself up in the style of the Prophet's female companions ect

how do you "feel" about that?

Mentally · 08-11-2015 17:23

(Original post by KingBradly)
Did anyone say that? Nice little straw-man though.

I don't need evidence that Muslims are forced to wear a burqa. Of course it's true that in many Islamic countries, women are forced to wear a veil by law, but let's just forget that blatant example of the mass oppression of women. For the sake of argument, even if this were not true, the fact is that Muslim women feel like they should, like they are obliged to veil themselves to appease an oppressive patriarchal custom that originates from a time when women were considered chattel. They are brainwashed to believe that women must do this or suffer grim consequences, from a very early age. They wear it out of fear of being outcast or going to hell. Telling little girls that they must hide themselves from the public eye, or fear grave consequences, is an example of oppression.

Wow, this couldn't be more empty, how ironic. You're relying on the fallacy that I can't prove this with a hypothesis, which I already disproved here:

So being raised to dress up modestly indicates women are opressed ?. But if the women then tells you that she chooses to wear the burqah out of her own choice then she is brainwashed.... you really cant win here..

Ofcourse there is the social pressure in the muslim world for women to dress a certain way however you must be incredibly stupid to think this trend is only in the muslim world. Arguably one could claim in the U.K girls as young as 12 can't leave their house without headbutting a tub of makeup otherwise they dont get that much attention from guys? Now that i find opressive. This social pressure wear on the dress code of women is apparent in every community however is manifested in different ways.

Also there are only 3 countries in the entire muslim world where a women may suffer from legal actions if they dont wear the hijab/burqa (which i completely disagree with) you seem to be assuming implicitly assuming that this is for the entire muslim world need i remind you that in the 5 largest muslim countries covering your head is completely optional and even banned in some areas (which i also completely disagree with).

allysbluehair · 08-11-2015 17:28

(Original post by KingBradly)
Many of you have probably seen this image:

Whenever I see it posted online it usually gets many responses like "omg so true wow xddd". It is usually of that kind of caliber anyway.

But the idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa, niqab, hijab, or any kind of Islamic veil, is totally ill-thought out rubbish. It's also the kind of moral relativist trite that has really doesn't deserve any consideration of credibility.

First of all, women generally wear bikinis when they're at the beach, swimming, or sunbathing. They don't really walk around the streets in them. The bikini is perfectly suited for swimming and enjoying the sun's rays. Men also wear very scant clothing for the situations women wear bikinis. You'd very much struggle to do any of these activities in any form of Islamic veil. It stops women from being able to enjoy them.

Here is a little test that proves that Islamic veils are a form of patriarchal oppression on women, while bikinis aren't: If men didn't exist, would women wear burqas at the beach or when swimming? Is the burqa practical in the situations where a bikini is generally worn? Because, I reckon that if men didn't exist, women wouldn't be wearing veils on the beach or while swimming. They would be wearing very little, if anything, as clothes are not practical for these activities.

Futhermore, the Byzantines invented the veil as way of stopping other men from stealing or "enjoying" their women. They viewed women as chattel, and the veil was used to make it easier to keep them as property. Many Islamic cultures embraced this and Islam helped to keep this tradition going as it became considered part of the religion. The veil is a symbol of oppression just as much as the shackle and chains.

On the other hand, the bikini or any skimpy clothing that women wear certainly doesn't exist to help men keep women as their property. The female form is often very beautiful, and skimpy clothing is a way for women (who are willing and enjoy such attention) to celebrate their beauty. To call this "oppression" is utterly idiotic. It is not showing them as property, and it is not showing them as nothing more than sex objects any more than wearing Adidas clothing is showing you as nothing more than as an advert for Adidas.

The veil also objectifies women far more than the bikini. The term "objectify" is usually used in a way that is totally hyperbolic. The idea that if a woman wears a bikini he see's her as an object is just disingenuous. A man finding a woman physically attractive is not the same thing as him seeing her as an object. A man can enjoy looking at a woman while at the same time understanding that she's a human being. The bikini is also worn by a woman on her own terms.

On the other hand, many women who wear the veil are forced to. The idea that it is worn just "because it's their faith" is also just totally disingenuous. Religions and their customs don't exist in a vacuum. There are reasons why the veil came into use, and those reasons include that the women are literally seen as sex objects, and any part of flesh on show is thought of as indecent because the woman's body is considered as nothing more than an object of lust. The women's body is essentially seen as something sordid and inappropriate. It is not the men leering at a women's body that are the problem, it is the body itself which is responsible for the lewdness.

I have also often heard Muslims say that the reason Muslim women wear veils is because the men view them as "jewels". This is actual, literal objectification. They are viewing women as commodities that are only valued for their aesthetics.

So no, the bikini is not in any sense comparable to the burqa. Goodbye.

Totally agree. I hate it when people try to say that women wearing less clothes is objectifying or because a guy gives a girl a compliment, it turns into sexism. Of course if he had said 'nice butt' or 'nice tits', that's a different story (it's him just being a jack arse, I wouldn't really say he's objectifying a woman though) but if he genuinely feels as if you look good a bikini, I personally don't feel as if that is objectification.

Mentally · 08-11-2015 17:29

(Original post by MJlover)
I didn't say that I thought the burqa was compulsory. I'd wear it because I feel it.

Theres no point arguing with the blind. Theyll tell you that you are being forced to wear the burqa/hijab. If you tell them no you want to wear it out of your own free choice then they will say you're brainwashed. You really cant win here

QE2 · 08-11-2015 17:32

(Original post by MJlover)
to cover myself up in the style of the Prophet's female companions ect

how do you "feel" about that?

And why do you feel that you want to cover yourself up in that way?

And why do you think they did it?

Heyyyyy · 08-11-2015 17:32

(Original post by Mentally)
Theres no point arguing with the blind. Theyll tell you that you are being forced to wear the burqa/hijab. If you tell them no you want to wear it out of your own free choice then they will say you're brainwashed. You really cant win here

lol shut up

TheArtofProtest · 08-11-2015 17:34

(Original post by KingBradly)
I'm not really sure why you keep beating over the same points which I have already explained my views on. Playing an active part in the sexual selection process is not an imposition, nor was it invented. It is biologically evolved. For women to care about their looks is for them to be playing their part in the sexual selection game. The burqa, however, was invented, for the primary function of helping men keep women as their chattel. This is a fact. It has been directly imposed on women by men. It stops women from having a hand in the sexual selection game. This is oppressive. I'm not sure how I'm demonstrating any kind of lack of understanding.

But that is simply untrue. If we went with your thought experiment (no men), then there would still be women walking around with Burqas as it seems to fit another religious objective about not backbiting or mockery of others, concepts which would still exist if there were no men.

I do think you demonstrate a poor understanding of the topic at hand because you keep referring to women as chattel. By engaging in your thought experiment, we have proved that your assertions are simply not true.

So, regardless of whether there are men or no women, we have determined that women will still be wearing the Burqa for other reasons than the ones you have stated.

You don't, and will probably not be able to grasp, that simple concept.

Mentally · 08-11-2015 17:35

(Original post by Heyyyyy)
lol shut up

A nicely detailed and logical response here. Quick question are you 12?

Heyyyyy · 08-11-2015 17:38

(Original post by Mentally)
A nicely detailed and logical response here. Quick question are you 12?

cheeky i wish pain on you

KingBradly · 08-11-2015 17:59

(Original post by TheArtofProtest)
But that is simply untrue. If we went with your thought experiment (no men), then there would still be women walking around with Burqas as it seems to fit another religious objective about not backbiting or mockery of others, concepts which would still exist if there were no men.

I do think you demonstrate a poor understanding of the topic at hand because you keep referring to women as chattel. By engaging in your thought experiment, we have proved that your assertions are simply not true.

So, regardless of whether there are men or no women, we have determined that women will still be wearing the Burqa for other reasons than the ones you have stated.

You don't, and will probably not be able to grasp, that simple concept.

Equally you don't seem to be able to grasp the simple concepts I keep trying to enlighten you about. First of all, it is not "simply untrue" that the burqa was created to help men keep women as their property. I am not referring to women as "chattel", I'm refering to the fact that women were literally considered chattle when the burqa was invented. How can you have the hubris to dispute this without any knowledge? Please watch a few minutes of this BBC documentary: https://youtu.be/3C0QwnvtMik?t=21m28s

This shows you that the burqa would not have originated if men did not exist. Established historical facts back my argument up. Nothing backs up yours.

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The idea that the bikini is just as much a form of oppression as the burqa is crap watch

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