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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Um, guess what, people from all over the world can get into the UK with a valid passport. That's not smoke and mirrors, that's the fact of the matter. Additionally, I haven't looked recently (ie in the last 12 months) but it's certainly the case that the number of legal immigrants from outside the EU is substantially larger than that from within the EU, and that doesn't even include illegal immigrants.



    This is from the latest ONS stats at http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/migrat...mber-2015.html

    ie 53% of immigrants are from outside the EU.
    That is completely irrelevant. EU migrants with a passport can live here as they choose. International migrants with a passport need a visa and can not live here as they choose. Unless for security reasons or legal reasons we can not refuse entry to EU citizens. I suggest you do some research on the issue. 500 million in the EU have a right to live and work and claim benefits in the UK. The 7 billion world wide do not have that same right. BIG DIFFERENCE, one I hope you understand
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    This is probably the most moronic post I have ever seen. Even if the UK were out of the EU what do you think that collapse of the EU would do to the economies of the remaining member states? And following from that, do you really think that the UK would be immune from chaos in the EU.

    Whatever you might wish, and it's a very spiteful wish, your dream is never going to come true - simply because the stakes for all of the member states are far too high. People like you have been talking about the collapse of the euro for 15 years - hasn't happened yet, and won't happen.

    How about trying some positive arguments about why the UK should leave? Let me tell you those arguments don't start with the "safe choice" mantra I've heard on the TV this afternoon.
    That is a positive argument for me. I am only quoting the EU commission. Whether it is true or not, I don't care. I just take great pleasure in watching the EU burn. It give me such satisfaction and I would happily take a hit if it meant I got a front seat to something I have wished for, for so long. It is my opinion and I am entitled to it. Don't hate me for that
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Good points well made. :yep:

    It's nice to see the quality of people gathering together to recommend Brexit.



    The real question is, when you see the kinds of people who are urging us to leave, how can any serious person possibly be considering supporting them?
    Yes. Of course anybody who supports Brexit must be a complete idiot including:

    6 Tory Ministers:
    Justice Secretary Michael Gove,
    Work & Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith
    Chris Grayling, the leader of the House of Commons
    Culture Secretary John Whittingdale,
    Northern Ireland Secretary Theresa Villiers
    Employment Minister Priti Patel.

    Two thirds of Tory MP's
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...nion-eu-brexit

    One in three business leaders
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...otiations.html

    Not to mention a narrow margin of the overall population (38% out versus 36% in on the last poll I checked)

    I know you'd like to paint Brexit as a fringe movement supported only by "people like" Nigel Farage but I'm afraid it's not the circus of clowns you'd like to believe it is.
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    (Original post by Camoron)
    That is completely irrelevant. EU migrants with a passport can live here as they choose. International migrants with a passport need a visa and can not live here as they choose. Unless for security reasons or legal reasons we can not refuse entry to EU citizens. I suggest you do some research on the issue. 500 million in the EU have a right to live and work and claim benefits in the UK. The 7 billion world wide do not have that same right. BIG DIFFERENCE, one I hope you understand
    I know it is hard for you to accept, but the data is clear, the majority of immigrants to the UK are from outside the EU. F-A-C-T.

    And, as previously, this does not even include all those illegal immigrants (who must be from outside the EU).

    There's no point in running-up figures like "500 million" have a right to live and work here, because that fact is meaningless on it's own. Let's actually put some context on it: the EU says the population of the EU is 503 million.

    http://europa.eu/about-eu/facts-figu...g/index_en.htm

    Hmm, hold on, nearly 65 million of those already live in the UK. So, your "500" million is already down to 435 million from outside the UK who could emigrate from the EU. Then we have the logic of that statement: how are 500 million people going to move to the UK any more than 65 million UK residents are going to move to Torquay, or 300 million US residents to Niagara?

    What are they going to do, leave the entirety of mainland EU empty?

    And, apart from anything else, if the government cannot control immigration from outside the EU to start with, what makes you think that if the UK were not in the EU we'd be any more successful in keeping out those 180k/pa EU citizens on an ongoing basis? That is, the UK obviously has jobs that need filling, above and beyond what EU citizens are able to fill - why would that change?

    Or are you arguing that the jobs are not there to start with? If that is the case why is the government allowing in over 200k net immigrants from outside the EU each year?
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    (Original post by Camoron)
    Don't hate me for that
    I don't hate you for it, you must be a very sad and lonely person to want to wallow around in other people's misery. Seems you really do want to cut off your nose to spite your face.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Of course I know the history of it - but that was then, this is now. You do realise that it mainly the Left and progressives who are in favour of remaining in the EU now? At least as far as national political movements go. So what difference does it make that some on the Left used to be opposed and a smaller number still are?

    The Bennite Left used to be opposed by the way mainly because they thought that the EU was an American plot to ensure that capitalism was firmly entrenched. That was probably true, at least insofar as it was an anti-Soviet instrument when viewed from Washington. What changed was the collapse of the Soviet Union and the subsequent reshaping of the political map. Brussels gradually came to be seen by the Right as a defender of socially conscious policies and particularly of big government. Benn was left looking very out of date after the 80s.

    I already said that the Euro has been nonsensically applied, but that isn't an argument for Brexit as such, it's an argument for staying out of the Euro, which it's completely obvious we will and for getting it restructured, which is completely obviously needed. The can-kicking that's gone on over the Euro is bound to end at some point and the whole daft experiment of extending it wildly to poorer states will end badly. That's another argument that the EU needs drastic reform.

    What annoys me are the constant whiny counsels of despair and defeatism over it. Why are British people so often so lacking in self-confidence? Others in the EU still want our input - it's only our political and media class that lack the will to supply it apparently. :sad:

    The whole Brexit debate is reactionary, foolish, muddled and wrong headed.
    I'm well aware of what the left progressives think about it. What I am not aware of are any good left wing arguments to support such a decision, it seems to boil down to a hatred of non-existent nationalism. I don't quite understand why Britain needs the European Union. You talk about the British having no self-confidence and yet you think Britain will not survive outside of the union. I have yet to hear a single argument to convince me this is the case, the UK economy is very large and even if the European Union did but trade barriers on us, I actually think such an action justifies war to be honest, restricting trade for political reasons is basically warfare.

    If nationalism means letting the people decide their own future, then I am a nationalist.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Yes. Of course anybody who supports Brexit must be a complete idiot including:

    Justice Secretary Michael Gove,
    Work & Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith

    Two thirds of Tory MP's

    A minority of business leaders
    This is precisely the kind of quote that will get people voting 'in'.
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    (Original post by ozzyoscy)
    This is precisely the kind of quote that will get people voting 'in'.
    It did make me laugh him trying to prove that leaving was backed by intelligent people and then quoting a bunch of morons.

    I think we are a joke, a very bad one at that. We need to learn to stand on our own feet again, either by taking more power from the union, or by leaving it. It was the British who believed in independence and free trade while the rest of the continent were deciding whether or not to shag the Nazis.
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    (Original post by Howard)

    6 Tory Ministers:
    Justice Secretary Michael Gove,
    Complete nutcase, totally screwed up the state education system.

    Work & Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith
    Former failed Tory leader.

    Chris Grayling, the leader of the House of Commons
    Former justice secretary who presided over a shambles of a reorganisation of the courts and legal representation (and now they put Gove in charge to try to sort it out!?).

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    (Original post by ozzyoscy)
    This is precisely the kind of quote that will get people voting 'in'.
    That's not what the current polls are showing though.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    I know it is hard for you to accept, but the data is clear, the majority of immigrants to the UK are from outside the EU. F-A-C-T.

    And, as previously, this does not even include all those illegal immigrants (who must be from outside the EU).

    There's no point in running-up figures like "500 million" have a right to live and work here, because that fact is meaningless on it's own. Let's actually put some context on it: the EU says the population of the EU is 503 million.

    http://europa.eu/about-eu/facts-figu...g/index_en.htm

    Hmm, hold on, nearly 65 million of those already live in the UK. So, your "500" million is already down to 435 million from outside the UK who could emigrate from the EU. Then we have the logic of that statement: how are 500 million people going to move to the UK any more than 65 million UK residents are going to move to Torquay, or 300 million US residents to Niagara?

    What are they going to do, leave the entirety of mainland EU empty?

    And, apart from anything else, if the government cannot control immigration from outside the EU to start with, what makes you think that if the UK were not in the EU we'd be any more successful in keeping out those 180k/pa EU citizens on an ongoing basis? That is, the UK obviously has jobs that need filling, above and beyond what EU citizens are able to fill - why would that change?

    Or are you arguing that the jobs are not there to start with? If that is the case why is the government allowing in over 200k net immigrants from outside the EU each year?
    Everything you said is false considering you don't understand my point. Immigration outside the EU is a governmental issue. I don't even vote Tories or Labour so I understand that. It has less to do with the EU (but saying that EU asylum policy and EU marriage policy and EU policy regarding relatives who live outside the EU affect our international migration). EU human rights law actually means a man in India can migrate here (if we accept him) and his whole family has a right to come here then. That is EU law which you can not dispute.

    My point was on EU migration lol. You wasted your time writing all that. EU migration is controlled when we leave the EU. International migration is controlled by the government and partly the EU with the policy I just stated
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    I don't hate you for it, you must be a very sad and lonely person to want to wallow around in other people's misery. Seems you really do want to cut off your nose to spite your face.
    It's simpler than that. I hate the EU and therefore I take pleasure in watching the EU fall.
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    (Original post by whorace)
    I'm well aware of what the left progressives think about it. What I am not aware of are any good left wing arguments to support such a decision…
    Here's a few:

    Working time Directive: gives all UK employees the right to four weeks annual holiday, restricts working week of employees to no more than 48 hours.

    European Acquired Rights Directive: gives rise to Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations (TUPE)

    Pregnant Workers Directive

    Parental Leave Directive

    Health and Safety Framework Directive

    Collective Redundancies Directive

    Equality Framework Directive

    Race Equality Directive

    Equal Treatment Directive

    Part-time Workers Directive

    Temporary and Agency Work Directive
    • TSR Support Team
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    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by Howard)
    Yes. Of course anybody who supports Brexit must be a complete idiot including:

    6 Tory Ministers:
    Justice Secretary Michael Gove
    Tbh Gove is a complete idiot. People have short memories; he was the worst and most hated education sec for a long, long time.
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    (Original post by Camoron)
    Everything you said is false considering you don't understand my point. Immigration outside the EU is a governmental issue. I don't even vote Tories or Labour so I understand that. It has less to do with the EU (but saying that EU asylum policy and EU marriage policy and EU policy regarding relatives who live outside the EU affect our international migration).
    It is EU law that says that the first safe country deals with the problem of refugees. That insulates the UK from the problem rather than creates a problem.

    EU human rights law actually means a man in India can migrate here (if we accept him) and his whole family has a right to come here then. That is EU law which you can not dispute.
    That is ECHR law, not EU law. It has more or less always been UK policy to allow family reunification.

    My point was on EU migration lol. You wasted your time writing all that. EU migration is controlled when we leave the EU. International migration is controlled by the government and partly the EU with the policy I just stated
    I didn't waste anything. My point is the same. You are complaining about migration, but there is nothing in voting to leave the EU that indicates that UK immigration policy, or UK economic requirements will change. We'll still get 300k+ legal immigrants per year.
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    (Original post by Camoron)
    It's simpler than that. I hate the EU and therefore I take pleasure in watching the EU fall.
    Like I wrote, you must be a very sad and lonely individual. The "cutting off your nose to spite your face" point is that you previously wrote that you'd happily see the UK's economy suffer just so you could watch the EU crumble.

    That's the kind of view point reasonable people cannot support, there's a complete lack of logic there, and that's why the UK will vote to stay in the EU.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    It is EU law that says that the first safe country deals with the problem of refugees. That insulates the UK from the problem rather than creates a problem.


    That is ECHR law, not EU law. It has more or less always been UK policy to allow family reunification.



    I didn't waste anything. My point is the same. You are complaining about migration, but there is nothing in voting to leave the EU that indicates that UK immigration policy, or UK economic requirements will change. We'll still get 300k+ legal immigrants per year.
    I don't care about migration, I care about the power of the U.K. to decide it. You confuse my stance. Immigration is not my problem, it is sovereignty and EU federalisation. I don't complain about immigration if it is UK policy dictating it. I complain when the UK has no say over it whether or not the UK supports it. You wont understand this but some of us find satisfaction and at least having the power to dictate our own laws even if those laws coincide with the EU
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Like I wrote, you must be a very sad and lonely individual. The "cutting off your nose to spite your face" point is that you previously wrote that you'd happily see the UK's economy suffer just so you could watch the EU crumble.

    That's the kind of view point reasonable people cannot support, there's a complete lack of logic there, and that's why the UK will vote to stay in the EU.
    The UK will 99.9% odds-wise vote to stay in. We can agree on that. If I was a betting man, I would put 1000s on it.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    That's not what the current polls are showing though.
    One poll can show a lot of contradictory things, depending on who's reading it. Then we have to pretend that polls are particularly reliable, and that the poll isn't months before voting happens, and by people with short memories.

    On top of all these, we have to then pretend the poll results are directly caused by the people you mentioned saying they're voting out, when 90% of the public have no idea who most of them are, let alone how they're voting.
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    (Original post by Camoron)
    I don't care about migration, I care about the power of the U.K. to decide it. You confuse my stance. Immigration is not my problem, it is sovereignty and EU federalisation. I don't complain about immigration if it is UK policy dictating it. I complain when the UK has no say over it whether or not the UK supports it. You wont understand this but some of us find satisfaction and at least having the power to dictate our own laws even if those laws coincide with the EU
    Here's another clue: the UK has decided it. In 1973, when the UK joined the EEC, parliament gave effect to the 1972 European Communities Act. This says that the UK has decided to join the club and abide by its rules. Further UK Acts of Parliament and various treaty changes cemented that position.

    The point you are failing to understand is that we live in an increasingly globalised world, where cooperation with other nations is essential. You concentrate on the EU, but the UK is signatory to dozens, possibly hundreds of treaties that control UK legislation and restrict the ways in which law can be made in this country. That will not change if we leave the EU. These treaties put pressure on law in the UK right across the board, that is the nature of international treaties.
 
 
 
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