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    (Original post by paul514)
    Provide evidence to show that the opposite is the case.


    No one can


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    Ask the Home Office. Tell them that you are a non-EU citizen living in the UK, and see what they have to say.
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    (Original post by Heinz59)
    Ask the Home Office. Tell them that you are a non-EU citizen living in the UK, and see what they have to say.
    Still zero evidence


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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    A lot of people are on the fence, and you'll probably see a lot of fearmongering and outright lies from people that want to leave. Stuff like "our NHS is failing", "the UK is overpopulated", "we give the EU money and never getting anything back", and so on. The "Leave" crowd seem to be very loud, so it's easy to believe them, but please ask questions and look for statistics before you believe what they say.

    People are turning the EU into a scapegoat as if it's the source of all these problems, and pretending that leaving it would solve them. I'd love to jump on the bandwagon, but the reality is that it won't. I'd like to make the case for why we should stay in the EU, with some facts and statistics, to help you make up your mind.

    1. Immigration: The EU allows for free migration between all EU countries. The people wanting to leave will tell you that lots of people come over from poorer countries to do unskilled labour, so they take our jobs, or that lots just come to take our benefits.

    Claims of immigrants coming from the EU to take our benefits are outright lies. This study by UCL found that EU migrants contributed 34% more in taxes than they took in benefits. It also found, "In contrast, over the same period, the total of UK natives’ tax payments were 11% lower than the transfers they received." This essentially means that the average migrant is contributing more to the economy than the average British citizen.

    There's also a myth that most immigrants are unskilled workers - people try to say that, while EU migrants work, they're taking unskilled jobs from natives instead of filling jobs we need. But the same UCL study found that 32% of EU migrants had a university education, compared to 21% for UK natives - so the truth is that they actually are filling skilled jobs that we need filled.

    As for unemployment, the number of UK natives in work has increased over the last few years. The number of employed natives is increasing alongside the number of migrants. The migrants aren't taking our jobs - they're spurring growth and creating jobs.

    2. Giving money to the EU: The UK (and all EU countries) pay an EU membership fee. But a lot of people don't seem to realize that we get a large amount of that money back. In 2013, Nigel Farage claimed that Britain pays £20 billion per year for EU membership. We actually paid £18 billion, and we received over half of it back.

    The majority of the rest went to the EU budget. The EU uses this to pay for a lot of stuff that benefits the entire EU. For example, £4 billion went to funding scientific research in the UK, and £53 billion to agriculture subsidies. A lot of this benefits us directly, but it also helps the rest of the EU grow, which in turn helps us by increasing trade.

    The EU has been particularly important in tackling Climate Change, and a large portion of the budget goes toward funding low-carbon technologies and climate change research. The budget has also provided funding for climate change adaptation for EU member states - paying for flood defenses, for example.

    A ton of science and technology projects in the UK and abroad are also able to happen due to EU funding. Over 2200 UK research projects have benefited from EU funding and grants. This is more than any other EU member state, by a large margin.

    3. We trade a lot with the EU: The EU has policies in place to increase trade between member states. These policies, like the Common Customs Tariff, will often make it more favourable to trade with other EU states than with external states. So, essentially, other EU countries will be more likely to trade with us than with China or the US, which benefits us economically.

    In 2014,44% of UK exports were to the EU. If we were to leave the EU, this would almost definitely decrease, as we become less favourable to trade with. This would impact the economy. 15% of our GDP (the total money coming into the country, a measure of economic strength) comes from EU exports. That's £300 billion.

    The strength of our economy determines how much money the government can spend on things like schools and the NHS, and it also plays a part in determining how much money people make on average. A strong economy benefits all of us, and if our economy suffers, we all do.

    4. The EU allows us to move freely too: It's not just people coming to the UK from elsewhere. We can move around the EU too. We can travel without requiring a visa, and we can easily apply for and attend universities across Europe (it's almost always cheaper than in the UK!)

    5. A lot of our rights come from the EU: And I'm not just referring to our Human Rights. The EU provides us with some of the best consumer rights in the world. Because of EU laws, you're entitled to a 14-day return period on everything you buy, retailers have to provide you with a certain amount of clear information on products they sell, and electronic products you buy all have to meet certain safety standards. This makes things safer for you as a consumer, and easier for businesses as they only need to meet one set of regulations.

    I hope this helps you toward making a decision. Please be sceptical toward anything you hear, and don't believe things without some evidence to back it up, because a lot of misinformation is being spread.

    And if you're on the fence, please inform yourself and vote. The outcome of the referendum will have a huge effect on the country.

    If you're planning on voting to STAY, that's not enough - please spread the word, and correct people when you see them spreading lies or misinformation.
    1. That doesn't include the amount of money that leaves the economy after economic migrants return to their native country, nor does it include the sheer cost on the infrastructure of the UK of having an increase of 300k+ people a year.

    2. The money would be (theoretically) better managed if it didn't have to go to the EU at all.

    3. True, but I don't think it's as simple as saying "it'll decrease" - by how much? A market can't just replace one supplier with another with ease.

    4. Don't care - you still need a passport so free movement is nice, but not necessary.

    5. **** rights, they are utterly useless and present massive significant issues as they are based on shaky logic to begin with.True, consumer rights are useful, but the CRA 2015 was not an EU law.

    Why vote to stay? Having an influx of unskilled migrants in a market that is moving towards skilled labour is nothing short of economic suicide. On top of that, given Europe's attitude towards finance and immigration, it's clear that it's ran by a bunch of incompetent fools.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Leaving the EU might allow us to control immigration to improve our economy, but that would be outweighed by the economic damage. I think the EU is a more than fair compromise.
    I doubt that if you consider the net increase of 300k+ immigrants a year. If you consider the amount of taxes they will be paying (not a lot), and the cost of them on the infrastructure of the UK, it's more likely that by 2030, immigration will have pushed the UK into the dirt through overpopulation.
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    (Original post by APkr)
    I doubt that if you consider the net increase of 300k+ immigrants a year. If you consider the amount of taxes they will be paying (not a lot), and the cost of them on the infrastructure of the UK, it's more likely that by 2030, immigration will have pushed the UK into the dirt through overpopulation.
    You should check out the Eu immigration figures.

    I know what you were saying about net migration but it shocked even me yesterday when I found out how they are calculated (by a flawed survey)

    There is a figure that isn't flawed and it's the number of new national insurance numbers that were issued last year to eu migrants and it isn't the 250k that migration figures show but over 600k!!


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    (Original post by paul514)
    You should check out the Eu immigration figures.

    I know what you were saying about net migration but it shocked even me yesterday when I found out how they are calculated (by a flawed survey)

    There is a figure that isn't flawed and it's the number of new national insurance numbers that were issued last year to eu migrants and it isn't the 250k that migration figures show but over 600k!!


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    With you, the higher the figure the more accurate it is.
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    (Original post by mes99)
    With you, the higher the figure the more accurate it is.
    No with me one is a survey of intention on a small selection of people at ports which is then calculated into what is the official figure using a flawed method (look it up it's shocking)

    The other is 100% correct information from HMRC.

    Dismiss that


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    (Original post by paul514)
    No with me one is a survey of intention on a small selection of people at ports which is then calculated into what is the official figure using a flawed method (look it up it's shocking)

    The other is 100% correct information from HMRC.

    Dismiss that


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    A large part of the difference will be students on "short" courses. Students count as immigrants if they are intending to stay for more than a year. That will catch most students doing school qualifications, undergraduate degrees and PhDs but will not catch a lot of the people on language courses and masters programmes. Masters are particularly attractive to EU students from countries where a masters takes a minimum of two years.

    However as you say the immigration survey has very dubious data. The key problem is not recording immigrants, it is recording emigrants. If you have a Pole returning to Poland temporarily but indeterminately, it is very easy to count that Pole as a emigrant but the Pole may not regard himself as an emigrant and so if he returns he treats himself as already here and so fails to be recorded as a re-immigrant. Likewise the Brit going abroad for a short time, say TEFLing, may have no intention to be gone for a lengthy period and so is not "booked out" even though she may be absent for many years with her holiday in and out journeys rightly being being ignored.


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    (Original post by paul514)
    You should check out the Eu immigration figures.

    I know what you were saying about net migration but it shocked even me yesterday when I found out how they are calculated (by a flawed survey)

    There is a figure that isn't flawed and it's the number of new national insurance numbers that were issued last year to eu migrants and it isn't the 250k that migration figures show but over 600k!!


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    Holy ****, here I was expecting the number you were going to say to be something like 100k, not double what there apparently is!
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    A large part of the difference will be students on "short" courses. Students count as immigrants if they are intending to stay for more than a year. That will catch most students doing school qualifications, undergraduate degrees and PhDs but will not catch a lot of the people on language courses and masters programmes. Masters are particularly attractive to EU students from countries where a masters takes a minimum of two years.

    However as you say the immigration survey has very dubious data. The key problem is not recording immigrants, it is recording emigrants. If you have a Pole returning to Poland temporarily but indeterminately, it is very easy to count that Pole as a emigrant but the Pole may not regard himself as an emigrant and so if he returns he treats himself as already here and so fails to be recorded as a re-immigrant. Likewise the Brit going abroad for a short time, say TEFLing, may have no intention to be gone for a lengthy period and so is not "booked out" even though she may be absent for many years with her holiday in and out journeys rightly being being ignored.


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    Sorry but their is not several hundred thousand new eu students every year registering for a NI number because they are also working.

    Also students are counted as migrants already in the official figures as they are staying for more than a year


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    (Original post by APkr)
    Holy ****, here I was expecting the number you were going to say to be something like 100k, not double what there apparently is!
    It is truly shocking


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    Scaremongering from people who want to leave? As far as I can see it's the other way round. The people who want to stay in keep telling us that Britain isn't strong enough to survive on her own and that it would be a massive risk to leave the EU. Personally, I'm a eurosceptic, as I feel the EU has to much control over our country. It might be a risk, but I think it's worth leaving for more freedom and I believe Britain could survive without being in the EU.
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    (Original post by paul514)
    Sorry but their is not several hundred thousand new eu students every year registering for a NI number because they are also working
    I accept that, but neither are there several hundred thousand additional EU migrants in the UK.

    There were 66 million NI numbers in issue uncancelled in 1997,
    76.8 million in 2006 and 89.2 million in 2015. I can assure you the population hasn't risen by 12.4 million in nine years.



    Also students are counted as migrants already in the official figures as they are staying for more than a year

    But folk doing one academic year masters courses are not staying for more than a year.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I accept that, but neither are there several hundred thousand additional EU migrants in the UK.

    There were 66 million NI numbers in issue uncancelled in 1997,
    76.8 million in 2006 and 89.2 million in 2015. I can assure you the population hasn't risen by 12.4 million in nine years.





    But folk doing one academic year masters courses are not staying for more than a year.
    The survey asks are you staying for one year or more and they answer yes to that

    With regards to ni numbers we aren't looking at long time periods simply eu citizens registering each year to pay taxes it's not a debatable figure


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    Well I'm out of the U.K. for 5 years and nobody even knows. So emigrants are not being recorded.



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    (Original post by Heinz59)
    Well I'm out of the U.K. for 5 years and nobody even knows. So emigrants are not being recorded.



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    You are supposed to be included in the calculation for emigrants from all ports.

    So you can see how flawed the system is


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    How many times have you got on a plane and somebody has asked you if you are coming back?


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    (Original post by Heinz59)
    How many times have you got on a plane and somebody has asked you if you are coming back?


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    Zero!


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    Amen.
    This post sums up why we should stay perfectly.

    We've just come out of a recession and due to the trade agreements we have due to being in the EU, taking them away could be damaging for growth that the nation has worked hard over the past couple of years to achieve!

    I can understand why people may want to leave when they're being given hugely overestimated figures but if they actually look a bit deeper they'll find that we are doing fine inside the EU, why would we want to change that?
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    (Original post by wyldermax)
    Amen.
    This post sums up why we should stay perfectly.

    We've just come out of a recession and due to the trade agreements we have due to being in the EU, taking them away could be damaging for growth that the nation has worked hard over the past couple of years to achieve!

    I can understand why people may want to leave when they're being given hugely overestimated figures but if they actually look a bit deeper they'll find that we are doing fine inside the EU, why would we want to change that?
    But 'they' can easily counter that the UK is one of only a few EU countries that has come out of the recession. So if the EU is so helpful, why hasn't everyone else come out?

    Are we doing fine because of the EU, or are we doing fine despite the EU? Might we be able to do better than fine if we weren't in the EU?

    I'll say up front that I don't think anyone can actually answer those questions with certainty - it's all guesswork - but the fact is those questions definitely exist. Pretending they don't doesn't do you any favours.
 
 
 
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