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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    How do women have it pretty *****y?
    Really?
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    In the western world, equality activism is wasted on sexism, instead of used against racism.
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    (Original post by BENJISAURUS)
    Really?
    Yes answer the question
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    (Original post by BENJISAURUS)
    :blah:
    It is a women's rights movement.
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    (Original post by GonvilleBromhead)
    So the patriarchy is sexist against men? As in a male controlled society discriminates against men? How does that work logically, i dont remember Hitler discriminating against Aryans. No system where a single group are in control negatively affects that individual group. Why on earth would a system that benefits men sentence them for longer?
    I think you misunderstand. The issue is that because of stereotypical gender roles, men are expected to act in certain ways, leading to the inequality in attitudes towards their mental health and victimhood, as well as the complete dismissal of said inquality as seen in this thread.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Oh the great irony. Apparently women fighting for their rights is abhorrent because we live in a meritocracy or something, but men fighting for their rights is fine.

    Sort it out mra, either both men and women can campaign for their rights or neither can.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I think youll find that a good number support campaigning for both men and womens rights. But dont let a good stereotype get in the way!
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    (Original post by BENJISAURUS)
    Men might be better off financially etc. in a patriarchal society, but what about gay men or the gender fluid? What about men who want their mental health to be taken seriously? What about men who can't express themselves freely in such a society? A patriarchal society might benefit some men, but it also puts us in boxes- our roles are predefined for us and pretty narrow. If we step outside these boxes we'll be judged. The only men a patriarchal society benefits are those who conform to traditional gender roles.

    The key thing to recognise with feminism is it's all about the freedom living without inequality affords us all; it's not about getting every woman a high flying STEM career, but to be able to choose to do so without a barrier would be nice. Equally, it's not about bringing men down in the world, but for a man to be a stay at home dad or seek treatment for mental ill health free of any perceived judgement, for example, would be pretty cool too.
    What about them? They're still men, I'm not playing the identity politics game because there is no quicker way to breed animosity to difference than to constantly bang on about it. You have posited something that presupposes itself, oh because of patriarchy x as if patriarchy is some immutable cosmic constant. As i said there is no logic to the patriarchy hurting men as a whole, whether they be gay or not. A controlling group does not disadvantage itself at all, if men had control no men would be disadvantaged because thats how being the controlling group works (and sexuality has no bearing on this). Further, a controlling group doesnt allow dissent because they have control so your speech is a contradiction to your argument.

    I am a 'typical man' if such a thing exists but i too am put into a box. Is that proof of matriarchy? No its proof people are judgemental which biologically is a crucial survival mechanism. The way not to get put into boxes is to stop trying to pander to the expectations of others, its ridiculous to expect both to do whatever you want and to have nobody criticise or dislike your choices. This is literally having your cake and eating it, its impossible. Also surely its 'male' to drink, be aggressive etc but men are still sentenced to more time for drink driving and violent offences so how is it true that patriarchy benefits conformist males?

    What barrier? Women are encouraged to enter stem 2:1 over men. Women may choose not to but that is their choice. The problem is people dont like that choice despite the fact they themselves never went into stem. If you say i really want to and are good enough but still dont get accepted or know any instances of this please produce them otherwise this is made up nonsense. Everyone gets judged. Generally the stigma about mental health should be approached but as much as you have a right to dislike the judgements people have a right to make them. Again stop focusing on others and change yourself, you cant change their opinion so dont let it affect you.
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    I think you misunderstand. The issue is that because of stereotypical gender roles, men are expected to act in certain ways, leading to the inequality in attitudes towards their mental health and victimhood, as well as the complete dismissal of said inquality as seen in this thread.
    Yes but the point is if patriarchy exists men would be allowed to be whatever they wanted and any woman who commented would be told to stfu and stop bringing men down. This doesnt happen. A patriarchy would eliminate any stereotypes that stopped men doing whatever they wanted and would shut down ideas that perpetuated any sort of stereotype and so forth because that is how controlling works. Also how are men 'expected to act' then because i have seen men of all ilks in my life and none have ever been told 'dude, you're not man-ing right' because thats ridiculous. All these 'i should this' and 'i must that' are self imposed limitations those individuals cant let go of because they want to be validated by others.

    Agendas lead to the dismissal of problems. People want to think one way and cant accept there may be important points in the converse. Humans like to think in dichotomies because its easier.
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    (Original post by GonvilleBromhead)
    Yes but the point is if patriarchy exists men would be allowed to be whatever they wanted and any woman who commented would be told to stfu and stop bringing men down.
    No it doesn't, because: a) a certain group being in power doesnt mean they let anyone in that group do to whatever they want, and b) they don't have to have total power.

    Consider Nazi Germany to build on your example. Promoting Aryanism wasn't just about giving Germanic peoples power, but also expected them to act in certain ways.

    (Original post by GonvilleBromhead)
    Also how are men 'expected to act' then because i have seen men of all ilks in my life and none have ever been told 'dude, you're not man-ing right' because thats ridiculous.
    That's just simply not true, in any way. Granted, the degree to which gender roles are enforced is far less than in the past, but are you honestly suggesting that men are not discouraged to be house-wives or nurses? Or that nobody bats an eyelid if a man wears a dress and wears makeup? Or that the phrase "man-up" is never used?

    (Original post by GonvilleBromhead)
    All these 'i should this' and 'i must that' are self imposed limitations those individuals cant let go of because they want to be validated by others.
    Yes, and that's part of what we are referring to. They are self-imposed because of social pressure from other individuals. It's standard human behavior, but certain ideas and behaviors are dominant in any particular culture.
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    ****ing lol at the people who +repped the post telling men to ''cry a river'', yet if the same thing was said to a feminist/woman it would be world war three.
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    (Original post by Gryffindorian)
    In the western world, equality activism is wasted on sexism, instead of used against racism.
    If we sit here and demand to solve each issue of equality by itself we will be doing so for centuries.

    That's a total waste of time considering that they all boil down to the same essential message.
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    (Original post by Farm_Ecology)
    No it doesn't, because: a) a certain group being in power doesnt mean they let anyone in that group do to whatever they want, and b) they don't have to have total power.

    Consider Nazi Germany to build on your example. Promoting Aryanism wasn't just about giving Germanic peoples power, but also expected them to act in certain ways.



    That's just simply not true, in any way. Granted, the degree to which gender roles are enforced is far less than in the past, but are you honestly suggesting that men are not discouraged to be house-wives or nurses? Or that nobody bats an eyelid if a man wears a dress and wears makeup? Or that the phrase "man-up" is never used?



    Yes, and that's part of what we are referring to. They are self-imposed because of social pressure from other individuals. It's standard human behavior, but certain ideas and behaviors are dominant in any particular culture.
    Perhaps but that still fails to explain things like larger prison sentences on average for men, that isnt a sexuality issue or a 'typical man' issue its men objectively disadvantaging themselves. The aryans didnt send their own people into concentration camps for longer than the jews did they? And again if there was a patriarchy how could feminism exist?

    Yes act in ways the government wanted. It wasnt particularly gendered in any way, they were told to behave in a way beneficial to the state. Every society does this, those in charge dictate behaviour to those who are not and to say its gendered is to entirely miss the point.

    Stay at home and nurses? Not so much. People may mock but that isnt gendered its because they are doing something different to most so are straying from the norm in the same way that some mock people who pick their noses or are stupid. The entire point of mocking is to abdicate someones identity in some way, to make them something they are not because this is uncomfortable, or to assign a trait with negative connotations. As for the men wearing dresses and lipstick, how many actually want to? The answer to this is the reason it happens. When generally a group does something then those within the group who deviate from the norm are different and therefore scrutinised more closely, maybe even ridiculed for being different but the idea of being wary of the different and the unknown is simply biological and people must accept if they do things outside the norm then they will be looked at differently. This however is not an issue of 'sexist stereotypes' or any of this nonsense as the reasoning isnt sexist and identifying patterns of normalcy isnt stereotyping.

    As for the phrase man up what is your point? Either you are saying this perpetuates gender stereotypes and so on which means the mere mention of words can lead to something worse than the words themselves and if you genuinely think words are a form of violence then ordering a book on stoicism should be a first port of call. Offence is always taken, never given. Stop being a d!ck is a common phrase but i hardly think its appropriate to surmise 'oh the implication is penis=bad so men=bad'. That sort of logic doesnt bear consideration as everyone could play that game ad infinitum.

    Gender roles are biological. If thats not true explain all nature ever. The dominant sex is the hunting sex which deals with the violence of survival and the smaller sex is the group which cares for children and tries to avoid conflict (at least direct violence). This is true for most if not all species. If you look at how biological adaptations define the roles of the sex within that species it will show a clear trend, so these sorts of differences are simply natural.

    Thats not true. Things cant be self imposed because of someone else, thats a contradiction in terms and proves my point. You think everyone is judging you, looking at what you're doing and instead of doing what you like and shrugging it off you self impose a requirement to match the expectations of others. They have no power over you. You wish to please them, to be seen as one of them and to fit in more than you wish to do what you want. Thus self imposed.
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    (Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
    I don't really support the men's movement; I haven't seen much positive from MRA. However it seems quite a fringe thing which doesn't influence much so I don't see much worth in criticising it. MRA isn't doing anything to stop the train of feminism, but I think feminism does make it difficult to speak about men's rights and be taken seriously, unless it's something like "we hate femininity as a society so men can't express their emotions".
    I don't think any (apart from maybe the very extreme) feminists would have any issue with men's rights groups focusing on genuine male issues like male poverty, male mental health (young men are three times as likely to commit suicide), testicular cancer, the struggles of homosexual men growing up in religious backgrounds, male victims of rape etc etc.

    Unfortunately though 'men's rights' groups focus almost exclusively on issues which allow them to criticise women and feminists. They don't actually care about men, they just want to stop women campaigning on their issues.

    They also reject any economic or social analysis for men's issues and instead go 'it's all women's fault'.

    You also find that the men's right movements have now become infused with the 'Pick up artist' movement, including those like Roosh who are incredibly sexist and misogynistic and are worshiped by creepy, lonely virgins.
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    (Original post by balanced)
    This website ( http://www.realsexism.com/ ) basically sums up why I fight for men's equality as a lot of people can't seem to understand why I bother.

    Real sexism is almost no shelters for male victims of domestic violence.
    Real sexism is men getting harsher punishments for the same crime.
    Real sexism is countries with compulsorily military service for men.
    Real sexism, courts that takes children from fathers based on gender.
    Real sexism is numerous government departments dealing with women's issues but none dealing with men's issues.
    Male infant circumcision/genital mutilation is legal and performed widely and even completely socially accepted but female genital mutilation is not.
    A young boy raped by a woman can be forced to pay child support to his rapist if she gets pregnant, that's real sexism.
    Many countries do not even recognize female on male rape. It can maximally only amount to “sexual assault” that's real sexism.
    Real sexism is having no special laws like VAWA to protect men, even though men are the majority of victims of violent crime.
    There are drives to fill quotas for women for the high paid roles but not in the dangerous jobs dominated by men, thats real sexism.
    In the army, police, fire service or any other position women have to meet much lower physical standards than men.
    Real sexism is services for men only given a fraction of the funds that services for women are given at a government and a social level.
    For the same crime, irrespective of the gender of the offender, the perpetrator gets more punishment if the victim is female rather than male.
    Most divorce laws are skewed against men, men can lose half his properly, money and children to a woman who decides to leave him.He is expected to pay for this betrayal, especially if he has already provided for and supported her, this is real sexism.
    I think it shouldn't be feminism but gender equality, so everyone is treated equally no matter what sex. For example, mens products should not be cheaper tan womens and womens jail sentences should not be shorter. However based on facts way more men who have got custody over their child have abused it, now i'm not saying all men have done this but it definitely is more. The case should always be looked into more because men have a right to have custody over their child if they are a good father.
    Also you say that men don't get recognition for female on male rape. The reason is because a hell of a lot less men are raped than women. If you were to ask a selection of men and women if they had been raped, hardly any men would have but about one in four women will have been raped and i know this is true because i know lots of my friends who are girls that have been raped but not many boys. However i know that boys do sometimes get raped bu usually by men.
 
 
 
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