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    (Original post by qwertyuiop1993)
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    Great post

    That's what I mean, it's not because of 'Oxbridge' that their graduates earn more on average. It's because the people who get into Oxbridge are as you say: hard working, intelligent, driven etc. These qualities are innate to the type of students who get into Oxbridge and I'm confident they would do well regardless of whether their degrees read Oxford/Cambridge or not.

    That's why it's important to not get trapped into formulaic 'x degree from y uni = z salary equations most young people on TSR function off of when choosing courses/unis. It's not only inaccurate, but it's dangerous because it sets an 'expectation' for them which, if unattained, would be disastrous to their sense of worth.
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    (Original post by JBLondon)
    That being said, the actual course at Cambridge is not for me. 3 years of theory only with no clinical work didn't appeal to me at all. I also didn't really like the style of the professor giving the lecture.
    Very legitimate conclusion.

    But just be aware - the 'early clinical contact' courses don't exactly have much clinical work either (its often one afternoon fortnightly kind of thing). Some might even describe it as a bit of a gimmick. Just make sure you do your research before you apply.
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    Do I have to do A2 if I want to apply to Oxibridge?
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    (Original post by AhmedMA99)
    Do I have to do A2 if I want to apply to Oxibridge?
    I'm pretty sure you have to do A2 to get into any university.
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    (Original post by qwertyuiop1993)
    I wasn't actually suggesting that chance of getting a good job is a reason for going to Oxbridge. And as someone else has pointed out its hard to distinguish correlation from causation. I don't really think the Oxbridge brand necessarily has that much of an effect (except maybe in certain domains like law), but the fact that Oxbridge tends to attract very intelligent, hard-working students aiming for grad jobs means that there's a higher likelihood of employment. For example, in highly competitive grad schemes where selection is university-blind (Civil Service Fast stream comes to mind) Oxbridge grads have a significantly higher chance of being accepted - that's not the brand working.
    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Great post
    Hypothetically the education itself could have made some difference though, right? Now I know very little about civil service fast stream or whatever, but there might be some transferable skills - critical reading, evidence analysis, or even just the hard-workingness you allude to - that may have contributed to at least a part of the difference.

    The evidence I'm more familiar with is from medicine. Its an interesting case because all med schools require AAA or higher so whilst the pre-uni academic standards are still slightly higher for Oxbridge, its about as close as you'll get to an even starting place. Oxbridge still blows all the others out of the water.

    The notion that Oxford might offer better teaching is not based on heresay. It spends far more money, has much closer involvement of senior academics, and works its students harder on average.

    I'm just hypothesising that that is not entirely wasted and that applying to Oxbirdge because you want a good job is not unfounded.

    Though obviously the individual is the more important variable.
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    (Original post by Thomb)
    If that were true then why not just move to Oxbridge and mingle in the pub with future nobel prize winning students?
    Because living in a college is substantially cheaper than renting a flat, maybe?
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    (Original post by one_man_abdullah)
    Only place where you have to put your sausage in a pig to get into Prestigious Clubs/Societies (*cough* David Cameron *cough*). Still, better than doing a test, am I right?
    You don't actually believe that story, do you?

    If you do, there's a good argument about it on the HIGNFY youtube channel.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Hypothetically the education itself could have made some difference though, right? Now I know very little about civil service fast stream or whatever, but there might be some transferable skills - critical reading, evidence analysis, or even just the hard-workingness you allude to - that may have contributed to at least a part of the difference.

    The evidence I'm more familiar with is from medicine. Its an interesting case because all med schools require AAA or higher so whilst the pre-uni academic standards are still slightly higher for Oxbridge, its about as close as you'll get to an even starting place. Oxbridge still blows all the others out of the water.

    The notion that Oxford might offer better teaching is not based on heresay. It spends far more money, has much closer involvement of senior academics, and works its students harder on average.

    I'm just hypothesising that that is not entirely wasted and that applying to Oxbirdge because you want a good job is not unfounded.

    Though obviously the individual is the more important variable.
    Interesting stuff. The link doesn't work for me but I have seen the stats before. Any reason why Oxford does significantly better than Cambridge for professional medical exams?

    I was more trying to dispel the myth of the 'Oxbridge brand' as having a significant factor, as if it's some magic spell disconnected from the factors we have been talking about. I can see that the Oxbridge type of education and environment can hone the skills needed for success (which could be a factor in the Civil Service statistics). However, I think that's different from saying that the Oxbridge name alone will automatically open doors etc., which seems to put the cart before the horse. If you go to Oxford you will be more likely to earn a higher salary, not 'just because you go to Oxford', but because you're more likely to be a certain type of person who will do well in the particular hothouse environment of Oxford that prepares you well for working life. It's in university-blind situations like the ones we have been talking about that the difference becomes clear.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Because living in a college is substantially cheaper than renting a flat, maybe?
    Depends on whether your college offers full three-year accommodation in its halls of residence or not. Flat-hunting in Cowley is a common enough experience for Oxford's second-years.
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    (Original post by AhmedMA99)
    Do I have to do A2 if I want to apply to Oxibridge?
    You need to do A2s or an equivalent (e.g. IB). Same as for any other UK University.
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    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    ...yes, there probably are, but it doesn't make the statement (which some people try to cast aspersions on in these sorts of threads) any less true.



    Well no, not maybe. It's a statistical fact, whether you like it or not.

    Very altruistic of you. You're right: getting into Oxbridge isn't a guarantee of a great job. In most cases, though, it gives you an edge.
    Edge is great if you're a value bettor trying to squeeze +EV profit on a large sample size, as it were.

    The whole 90+ UMS stuff was based on statistical findings that people with such grades tended to do better in exams (roughly, I don't recall word for word). So the admissions team were value bettors, and justifiably so, as they they probably admits low thousands of students a year. So the 'edge' will materialise, and measurably so.


    But if you don't want to waste your time, it makes no sense to make decision on 'edge' in your position.

    Rather, it is much more efficient and time-effective to reason from first principles about how to get into careers that pay high salaries, and if they are likely to continue to be able to pay those salaries (i.e. the health of the industry) and what is the most efficient way of approaching that goal.

    I could say more, but I think that will suffice.

    TL;DR going to Oxbridge because Oxbridge grads tend to earn more is absurd and stupid.
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    (Original post by qwertyuiop1993)
    I wasn't actually suggesting that chance of getting a good job is a reason for going to Oxbridge. And as someone else has pointed out its hard to distinguish correlation from causation. I don't really think the Oxbridge brand necessarily has that much of an effect (except maybe in certain domains like law), but the fact that Oxbridge tends to attract very intelligent, hard-working students aiming for grad jobs means that there's a higher likelihood of employment. For example, in highly competitive grad schemes where selection is university-blind (Civil Service Fast stream comes to mind) Oxbridge grads have a significantly higher chance of being accepted - that's not the brand working.
    Were there the same quantity of applicants in the Civil Service Fast stream data? Did they study the same subjects?

    (Original post by qwertyuiop1993)
    I chose Oxford because I liked the look of the course and I wanted to be challenged in a tutorial setting. Yes, the prestige was a nice factor, but I think the most valuable thing I got out of it was the ability to deal with vast amounts of work efficiently and being able to defend your ideas to authority. Nothing like Oxford Finals to make normal working life feel pretty easy.

    I'm not saying that Oxbridge is the be all and end all, and there are loads of reasons why other universities will suit other people better.

    The prestige is not only a 'nice' factor, but it is the only factor.

    Let's take your idea to a logical extreme.

    You could do vast amounts of work alone using the millions of relevant resources available online for little to no cost. You could set yourself deadlines to put pressure on yourself, so that you have to learn to compute this information more efficiently.

    Being able to defend your ideas to authority, requires little more than literacy, spoken coherence, and clarity of thought. Which require reflection and the ability to reason logically from first principles to refine. Nothing to do with Oxbridge.

    Do you truly believe the 'Oxford finals' are the apex of challenging intellectual activity?

    I see no evidence of that.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Great post

    That's what I mean, it's not because of 'Oxbridge' that their graduates earn more on average. It's because the people who get into Oxbridge are as you say: hard working, intelligent, driven etc. These qualities are innate to the type of students who get into Oxbridge and I'm confident they would do well regardless of whether their degrees read Oxford/Cambridge or not.

    That's why it's important to not get trapped into formulaic 'x degree from y uni = z salary equations most young people on TSR function off of when choosing courses/unis. It's not only inaccurate, but it's dangerous because it sets an 'expectation' for them which, if unattained, would be disastrous to their sense of worth.
    If only you would take your own advice on IB forums...
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    (Original post by DrownedDeity)
    If only you would take your own advice on IB forums...
    That's completely different though.. The idea of the 'target and semi-target' university is real, you can see it in the attention the firms give to each school, and in the intake numbers for each firm. When 6 unis make up 70%+ of an intake, you better believe there's something more going on than just student ability.

    I've never been one to say 'it's impossible' to make it into IB outside of the de facto univerities (and frankly, after seeing a London Southbank grad get Barclays IBD, I don't think I ever will), but there is no doubt that going to a target/semi-target significantly boosts one's chances. Across all careers? Not necessarily, no. In FO IB? Yes, definitely. Anybody giving advice re:IB will mention which schools are seen more favourably, not to show face but because it's a genuine aspect of the selection process.
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    (Original post by intelligent con)
    Why are people on this site and to a lesser extent so obsessed with Cambridge and Oxford like they're heaven on earth? I've not seen Oxford but from what I saw of Cambridge it was basically a small town, with the colleges making it feel like some weird cross between a private boarding school and a sixth form. There's like no clubs and the ones which are there are supposedly :dolphin::dolphin::dolphin::dolphin:. You'll basically be wasting the best 3 years of your life doing nothing but studying. Come at me Oxbridge fanboys.
    Some people are just about the :work: life tbh.... you wouldn't expect anything else on TSR.

    What's more important is finding that perfect balance between work and play. :moon:
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    That's completely different though.. The idea of the 'target and semi-target' university is real, you can see it in the attention the firms give to each school, and in the intake numbers for each firm. When 6 unis make up 70%+ of an intake, you better believe there's something more going on than just student ability.

    I've never been one to say 'it's impossible' to make it into IB outside of the de facto univerities (and frankly, after seeing a London Southbank grad get Barclays IBD, I don't think I ever will), but there is no doubt that going to a target/semi-target significantly boosts one's chances. Across all careers? Not necessarily, no. In FO IB? Yes, definitely. Anybody giving advice re:IB will mention which schools are seen more favourably, not to show face but because it's a genuine aspect of the selection process.
    That's fine, I was rather talking about the pay scales. The reality is that pay doesn't progress in such a structured fashion as you present it. And they aren't so high.

    I know a UBS director on the ETF trading desk that was earning just under £200k. Not the low seven figures I often see reported.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    That's completely different though.. The idea of the 'target and semi-target' university is real, you can see it in the attention the firms give to each school, and in the intake numbers for each firm. When 6 unis make up 70%+ of an intake, you better believe there's something more going on than just student ability.

    I've never been one to say 'it's impossible' to make it into IB outside of the de facto univerities (and frankly, after seeing a London Southbank grad get Barclays IBD, I don't think I ever will), but there is no doubt that going to a target/semi-target significantly boosts one's chances. Across all careers? Not necessarily, no. In FO IB? Yes, definitely. Anybody giving advice re:IB will mention which schools are seen more favourably, not to show face but because it's a genuine aspect of the selection process.
    To anyone wondering who he's talking about, it's this guy:
    https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ahmed-adebayo-09346936
    He doesn't look very happy though lol
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    (Original post by DrownedDeity)
    That's fine, I was rather talking about the pay scales. The reality is that pay doesn't progress in such a structured fashion as you present it. And they aren't so high.

    I know a UBS director on the ETF trading desk that was earning just under £200k. Not the low seven figures I often see reported.
    Ah! Pay varies quite wildly from firm to firm, desk to desk, division to division, time in the economic cycle etc. But for IBD, it's pretty uniform across the street for the junior years at least.

    To add, Directors at UBS aren't the same as Directors at other firms:
    Analyst
    Associate Director = Associate
    Director = VP
    Executive Director = Director
    Managing Director = MD

    So given the contact you know was in the ~£200k range, it seems pretty much in line with VP comp elsewhere. MDs, on the other hand, will be on much more - it'd be a bit disgraceful if a front office MD was on less than £200k.

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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    To anyone wondering who he's talking about, it's this guy:
    https://uk.linkedin.com/in/ahmed-adebayo-09346936
    He doesn't look very happy though lol
    It's easier for non-whites and females to get in due to positive discrimination policies, isn't it?
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    (Original post by anonwinner)
    It's easier for non-whites and females to get in due to positive discrimination policies, isn't it?
    I don't know, maybe. But still, the guy deserves a lot of praise for getting into such a competitive field coming from such a low ranked uni and therefore having to impress the employer a lot more.
 
 
 
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