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    In.

    The only argument I see for Leave is the mindless 'buhh we can control our borders'.

    Besides, from a scientific research perspective, there will be drastic cuts to research in the UK. Ffs I'd like a job when I'm older.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No, no, no and no one more time.
    The European Court of human rights has NOTHING to do with the EU. The EU is not a human rights body.
    You are conflating and confusing two SEPARATE European organisations.

    Let me make this clear. The European Union is a social and economic body. We joined in 1973. It's court is the European Court of Justice and is situated in Luxembourg.


    The European Court of Human Rights is in Strausbourg. It is the court of a completely separate body, the Council of Europe and brought about by the 1951 European Convention on Human Rights.

    The two are not connected. Different courts for different organisations.


    They are separate organsiations. The court of justice is the court of the eu. The European court of human rights is the court of the council of Europe. The EU and Council of Europe are separate organisations.



    Stop lumping separate European organisations together.
    That may be so, but it is still a body which many want nothing to do with. You cannot deny that while it may not be within the European Union, it does have an impact on the UK.

    What about the other points I mentioned? Or are you going to continue to quibble over semantics?
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    (Original post by TheIr0nDuke)
    That may be so, but it is still a body which many want nothing to do with. You cannot deny that while it may not be within the European Union, it does have an impact on the UK.

    What about the other points I mentioned? Or are you going to continue to quibble over semantics?
    It's not semantics at all, it's a fundamental part of your argument. You said you wanted to leave the eu to stop Strasbourg overruling our parliament (which it cannot actually do).

    The Strausbourg court is nothing to do with the European Union at all and leaving the European Union will have no bearing on our relationship with the Strausbourg court.

    You are conflating the European Union with the Council of Europe. Two separate organisations with separate courts.

    If you want to leave the EU you should at least know what it does but the fact you thought the European Court of Human Rights was part of the EU makes me feel you don't know much about it at all or what it does.

    I don't care if you want to stay or leave but please stop doing what many brexiters are doing and that is lumping completely separate European organisations together.
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    (Original post by Alex from almanis)
    Interesting that despite the OPs suggestion that younger voters are more likely to vote "in" leave is currently just winning the poll. I wonder whether that is to do with TSr demographics being slightly different to average young people
    The Student Room is overwhelmingly 'liberal' so it makes the number of leave votes even more impressive really when there are so many lies spun that portray Brexiters as xenophobic or racist 'little Englanders' who want end all immigration or dismantle the NHS or even as just simply manipulative and that leave voters are too stupid to comprehend the situation.

    Every article in the Guardian has little snipes like this

    "What’s more, leave has been able to swat aside remain’s best missiles with surprising ease. When in says Europe needs to stay united against an assertive Vladimir Putin, out has only to reply that France and Germany are bound to want an alliance with a post-exit Britain – and the argument seems to crumble. By the time the inners have explained the nature of deeper security cooperation and established alliances, the voter is yawning or has moved on."

    (The leave campaign manipulates the simple proletariat while the truthful and 'deeper' arguments of the remain side have no impact on the stupid masses)

    "[Remain] lacks the killer instinct embodied by leave’s resident rottweiler Dominic Cummings."

    (The leave campaign is ran by a vicious beast)

    It's all part of a concerted effort to discredit the Leave side as evil and untrustworthy bigots and it is often-times readily swallowed up by the liberal self-loathing student population who need something to feel guilty about.

    Serine Soul
    (Original post by Serine Soul)
    In.The only argument I see for Leave is the mindless 'buhh we can control our borders'.Besides, from a scientific research perspective, there will be drastic cuts to research in the UK. Ffs I'd like a job when I'm older.

    The UK's annual contribution to the EU budget is four times the UK's science and research budget (according to this). I'm not sure if you should comment 'from a scientific research perspective' if you think it's appropriate or scientific to discredit an entire argument (immigration) as 'mindless'.
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    (Original post by Roofas)
    The Student Room is overwhelmingly 'liberal' so it makes the number of leave votes even more impressive really when there are so many lies spun that portray Brexiters as xenophobic or racist 'little Englanders' who want end all immigration or dismantle the NHS or even as just simply manipulative and that leave voters are too stupid to comprehend the situation.

    Every article in the Guardian has little snipes like this

    "What’s more, leave has been able to swat aside remain’s best missiles with surprising ease. When in says Europe needs to stay united against an assertive Vladimir Putin, out has only to reply that France and Germany are bound to want an alliance with a post-exit Britain – and the argument seems to crumble. By the time the inners have explained the nature of deeper security cooperation and established alliances, the voter is yawning or has moved on."

    (The leave campaign manipulates the simple proletariat while the truthful and 'deeper' arguments of the remain side have no impact on the stupid masses)

    "[Remain] lacks the killer instinct embodied by leave’s resident rottweiler Dominic Cummings."

    (The leave campaign is ran by a vicious beast)

    It's all part of a concerted effort to discredit the Leave side as evil and untrustworthy bigots and it is often-times readily swallowed up by the liberal self-loathing student population who need something to feel guilty about.

    Serine Soul


    The UK's annual contribution to the EU budget is four times the UK's science and research budget (according to this). I'm not sure if you should comment 'from a scientific research perspective' if you think it's appropriate or scientific to discredit an entire argument (immigration) as 'mindless'.
    Debate and Current Affairs, particularly UK politics tends to be more authoritarian and right wing, especially compared to the likes of chat and international

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    It's not semantics at all, it's a fundamental part of your argument. You said you wanted to leave the eu to stop Strasbourg overruling our parliament (which it cannot actually do).

    The Strausbourg court is nothing to do with the European Union at all and leaving the European Union will have no bearing on our relationship with the Strausbourg court.

    You are conflating the European Union with the Council of Europe. Two separate organisations with separate courts.

    If you want to leave the EU you should at least know what it does but the fact you thought the European Court of Human Rights was part of the EU makes me feel you don't know much about it at all or what it does.

    I don't care if you want to stay or leave but please stop doing what many brexiters are doing and that is lumping completely separate European organisations together.
    Matters are decided in Strasbourg that affect the UK. It may not be part of the EU, but it is a body that many feel should have nothing to do with Britain whatsoever. Same goes for Brussels. British affairs decided by Britians, not Europeans.

    'The European Court of Justice (ECJ) gives the European Convention on Human Rights "special significance" as a "guiding principle" in its case law.'

    Besides, I never said that at all. I said it was 'connected', not a part of.

    If that's the only part of what I mentioned you can pick out, you're sure making a weak case for the remain campaign.
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    (Original post by Serine Soul)
    In.

    The only argument I see for Leave is the mindless 'buhh we can control our borders'.

    Besides, from a scientific research perspective, there will be drastic cuts to research in the UK. Ffs I'd like a job when I'm older.
    Where does the EU get its money from to fund this research? Wouldnt be the UK would it, oh yes it would
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    (Original post by Serine Soul)
    In.

    The only argument I see for Leave is the mindless 'buhh we can control our borders'.

    Besides, from a scientific research perspective, there will be drastic cuts to research in the UK. Ffs I'd like a job when I'm older.
    I guess you're too busy with your confirmation bias to bother paying any attention to the leave campaign; and the matter of funding is a hilarious one because, on top of what has been said in the post above, you have two other things to consider. First, the grants are allocated by scientists and so politics should stay out of it, on top of that last time I checked Israel is not part of the EU and yet still got I think it was something like £760m EU research funding (having only paid in a few tens of millions); second, in a debate last term one of the inners brought up this EU funding, I think it's something like £10m per year on average, immediately, when allowed to speak, one of those arguing for exit pointed out that we get ten times than from the Chinese and that in the grand scheme of university funding that £10m is but a drop in the ocean.
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    (Original post by Serine Soul)
    In.

    The only argument I see for Leave is the mindless 'buhh we can control our borders'.

    Besides, from a scientific research perspective, there will be drastic cuts to research in the UK. Ffs I'd like a job when I'm older.
    1) leaving the EU would mean we regain *all* political control, not just borders. we'll control agriculture, energy, immigration, social policy, commercial regulations, etc - and we won't be commanded what to do by illegitimate or unelected institutions.
    2) we'd be able to make our own trade deals for once - not in the EU interest, but in the UK national interest. we would likely free trade with the EU from the outside because even turkey is now free trading with the EU...over the long term, whatever jobs we lose from leaving (short term costs) would be given back with interest.
    3) it actually costs loads to be an EU member. and we have to obey a huge amount of laws that we in the UK don't vote for. I wouldn't understand how that is good considering the lack of benefits.
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    What's the general split like in terms of people who would vote Labour/Conservative/whatever else in terms of how they vote for leave/remain? Does it fall along party lines?
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    (Original post by TheIr0nDuke)
    Matters are decided in Strasbourg that affect the UK. It may not be part of the EU, but it is a body that many feel should have nothing to do with Britain whatsoever. Same goes for Brussels. British affairs decided by Britians, not Europeans.

    'The European Court of Justice (ECJ) gives the European Convention on Human Rights "special significance" as a "guiding principle" in its case law.'

    Besides, I never said that at all. I said it was 'connected', not a part of.

    If that's the only part of what I mentioned you can pick out, you're sure making a weak case for the remain campaign.
    It cannot overrule Parliament or our courts. It can ask us to but at all times the UK Parliament and the Supreme Court remains sovereign and does not have to follow their orders. An example would be prisoner voting which we have not followed and legalised despite them having told us to:

    But no, they are not 'connected' at all. Strausbourg has NOTHING to do with the EU. It is the court of a completely separate European organisation. Bringing Strausbourg into a debate about the EU is a total misunderstanding. Whether or not we remain in the EU has NOTHING to do with Strausbourg.

    It would be like saying that the EU is 'connected' to the UN or NATO. It simply isn't. Completely separate organisations. I don't know how I can make that clearer to you.

    Again I don't care if you want to leave or stay, I'm not trying to convince you either way. I'm trying to tell you to stop making a huge misunderstanding on a point of information.
    They're not 'connected'. Do not lump separate organsiations together.



    Parliament remains free at all times to legislate contrary to human rights and eu law. The EU nor the ECHR can overrule UK legislation and their decisions do not bind us.

    The case of Osman v DPP makes this clear in which Lord Reed determined 'the UK common law rights are the starting point, not ECHR rights'

    In the case of Ex Parte Simms, Lord Hoffman made it clear that the UK Parliament can never be overruled by the EU or ECHR.

    The best either body can do is ask us to do something. We remain free at all times to say no.

    We are part of the Council of Europe INDEPENDENT our membership of the EU. It is the Human rights act, not The EU which gives effect to the ECHR as a 'guiding principle'.

    Let me repeat one more time, Our membership of the EU is in no way, shape or form connected to our membership of the Council of Europe. Leaving the EU will have no bearing whatsoever on our relationship with the Straubourg Court. None, nil , nada.

    Strausbourg court decisions will continue to act as a 'guiding principle' unless we repeal the Human Right Acf. Which had nothing to do with the EU.
    But seeming as you hate the Strausbourg court, can you tell me a single instance in which it has overridden UK parliament? As you said it had? Just one?
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    1) leaving the EU would mean we regain *all* political control, not just borders. we'll control agriculture, energy, immigration, social policy, commercial regulations, etc - and we won't be commanded what to do by illegitimate or unelected institutions.
    2) we'd be able to make our own trade deals for once - not in the EU interest, but in the UK national interest. we would likely free trade with the EU from the outside because even turkey is now free trading with the EU...over the long term, whatever jobs we lose from leaving (short term costs) would be given back with interest.
    3) it actually costs loads to be an EU member. and we have to obey a huge amount of laws that we in the UK don't vote for. I wouldn't understand how that is good considering the lack of benefits.
    The idea that we will region total 'control' and not have to cede any in trade deals is laughably optimistic.
    Every European nation outside the EU inside the single market (a position we want apparently) has free movement of people.
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    (Original post by Alex from almanis)
    What's the general split like in terms of people who would vote Labour/Conservative/whatever else in terms of how they vote for leave/remain? Does it fall along party lines?
    No. Although I'm unsure on what Labour voters are like, my suspicion is that they're largely pro-EU. The Conservative Party is split on this; members of the same Cabinet are heading both the In and Out campaigns, and Conservative voters have their likes/dislikes about each of them. Ardent Boris supporters, for instance, will most likely vote to leave. :lol:

    The other parties are more clearly divided along party lines: considering that UKIP is almost a single-issue party on the question of EU membership, it's likely that almost every UKIP voter/supporter will vote to leave. The Greens are the opposite (with almost unanimous pro-EU sentiment), although they don't support certain unpleasant consequences of EU membership, such as the TTIP. The Scottish and Welsh nationalist parties are also generally pro-EU, as are the Liberal Democrats.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    No. Although I'm unsure on what Labour voters are like, my suspicion is that they're largely pro-EU. The Conservative Party is split on this; members of the same Cabinet are heading both the In and Out campaigns, and Conservative voters have their likes/dislikes about each of them. Ardent Boris supporters, for instance, will most likely vote to leave. :lol:

    The other parties are more clearly divided along party lines: considering that UKIP is almost a single-issue party on the question of EU membership, it's likely that almost every UKIP voter/supporter will vote to leave. The Greens are the opposite (with almost unanimous pro-EU sentiment), although they don't support certain unpleasant consequences of EU membership, such as the TTIP. The Scottish and Welsh nationalist parties are also generally pro-EU, as are the Liberal Democrats.
    The conservatives Grass roots are about seventy percent in favour of leaving, with about half of these being hard eurosceptics. Cameron's Inner circle are all for IN. I suspect that if we vote to stay in the Tory party will split like labour did under Wilson.

    Ukip is of course entirely out, i suspect there is some support for labour voters leaving the EU but in other parties its non existant.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    The conservatives Grass roots are about seventy percent in favour of leaving, with about half of these being hard eurosceptics. Cameron's Inner circle are all for IN. I suspect that if we vote to stay in the Tory party will split like labour did under Wilson.

    Ukip is of course entirely out, i suspect there is some support for labour voters leaving the EU but in other parties its non existant.
    A Tory split after a vote to stay is improbable; civil war if it is close but not a split.

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    (Original post by Alex from almanis)
    What's the general split like in terms of people who would vote Labour/Conservative/whatever else in terms of how they vote for leave/remain? Does it fall along party lines?
    If you look at the "see full results" link on this page it will give you a breakdown based on how people voted last year (a but early for VIs), gender, age, social grade, and region.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    A Tory split after a vote to stay is improbable; civil war if it is close but not a split.

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    Its already a civil war now!

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...gration-Brexit

    Cameron and most of the Inners have tanked massively in terms of popularity in recent polls-largely i suspect because earlier fans of them supposedly didn't expect him to be quite vociferous in favour of the EU.

    Osborne is pretty much out of the game- I suspect it will be inevitable that Boris is crowned leader and that will create all sorts of problems. I expect after the EU refendum both Labour and the Tories will be engaged in fratricide.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Its already a civil war now!

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...gration-Brexit

    Cameron and most of the Inners have tanked massively in terms of popularity in recent polls-largely i suspect because earlier fans of them supposedly didn't expect him to be quite vociferous in favour of the EU.

    Osborne is pretty much out of the game- I suspect it will be inevitable that Boris is crowned leader and that will create all sorts of problems. I expect after the EU refendum both Labour and the Tories will be engaged in fratricide.
    Bit George is just as much out of the game because he's incompetent as because he's an inner. But it isn't civil war yet, just civil unrest and plotting, nobody is going to try to dethrone Cameron until after the referendum.

    Corbyn might have Khan taking London protecting him, and it won't be so bar there because Corbyn surrendered his own position to satisfy the party unlike Cameron.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Bit George is just as much out of the game because he's incompetent as because he's an inner. But it isn't civil war yet, just civil unrest and plotting, nobody is going to try to dethrone Cameron until after the referendum.
    Out of interest, why do you think George Osborne is incompetent? (I agree, at least as chancellor but i suspect we will have different reasons!)

    The referendum outcome will be the deciding victory for certain. Cameron's essentially become a reverse thatcher and is going to be as popular for the Tories as Blair is for labour!

    Corbyn might have Khan taking London protecting him, and it won't be so bar there because Corbyn surrendered his own position to satisfy the party unlike Cameron.
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    Khan is being tipped as somebody that will help topple Corbyn, and he's shown a great deal of political acumen.

    I actually think Corbyn's new support for the EU is genuine rather than pragmatic. He's quiote fond of groups like Syriza and Podemos so it makes sense to believe in a pan europeans movement.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Out of interest, why do you think George Osborne is incompetent? (I agree, at least as chancellor but i suspect we will have different reasons!)

    The referendum outcome will be the deciding victory for certain. Cameron's essentially become a reverse thatcher and is going to be as popular for the Tories as Blair is for labour!



    Khan is being tipped as somebody that will help topple Corbyn, and he's shown a great deal of political acumen.

    I actually think Corbyn's new support for the EU is genuine rather than pragmatic. He's quiote fond of groups like Syriza and Podemos so it makes sense to believe in a pan europeans movement.

    Exciting times :excited:
 
 
 
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