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    (Original post by l'insegnante)
    People choose to take offence of parades on both sides yes. However, that is the persons choice and no one can stop them taking offence.
    However, most of the trouble concerning parades takes place in the greater Belfast area. The rest of the country is largely unaffected by violence concerning parades.
    I didn't simply mean offensiveness, I meant the message and atmosphere it creates for new generations and the place as a whole. The parades have helped sustain the divide.

    More to the point, we shouldn't be encouraging anyone to be religious in 2016.

    Nowhere else in the UK is the same as NI. You can't compare an apple to an orange and expect them to be the same.
    NI has its problems. Yes they seem big in comparison to somewhere like Wales. But Northern Ireland is steeped in divisive history so obviously there is still some repercussions of said history.
    You're stating the obvious. It's these problems that give it a poor reputation that the OP is concerned about, hence this thread.

    So one occasion of rioting highlighted how severe the problem is every single day?
    No, how severe the problem is in terms of people's divided beliefs. If the problem had washed over, a £20 million, 6 week riot wouldn't have occurred from the removal of a flag. It highlights the deep set and unsolved issues in NI at present.

    Did you even fully read that article? It shows the increase in integrated education which has continued to increase since that article was written 4 years ago.
    I'm not saying that every single school is now mixed but things are changing.
    I know; of course improvements are being made as people let their religious prejudice drop. The point was that half of students go to schools with nearly 100% students of the same religious beliefs, contrary to your very misleading post that there is lots of mixing. This is the 21st century for crying out loud! The fact you are even happy with improvement in religous mixing of kids is pathetic and very telling. It shouldn't be an issue in the first place for any modern Western country.

    The people in Northern Ireland are changing and so is the societal norms
    Of course, I agree, and that is because of the huge decrease in theism and the massive reformation of Christianity in the UK. It has been reformed into nothingness and a contradiction. Everything it was against - homosexuality, gender equality, same sex marriage, blasphemy, abortion - are now cemented in human rights and Christianity has had no choice but to be diluted and thus theism has decreased and atheism has increased. This has been much slower in NI due to its history, hence why it is lagging behind the rest of the mainland.

    I am a Christian by choice.

    The majority of people in Northern Ireland are Christian. And so what? It is THEIR choice.
    You and they had no choice in the matter - you are merely a product of your environment and genes. If you were born in Saudi Arabia you would not have "chosen" to be Christian. You grew up in the most Christian place in the UK and went to a Christian school - shock horror, you "chose" to become a Christian!

    Are you now going to make assumptions that I am against both of those things now because I've said I'm Christian?
    To be Christian proper you must be against them, but Christianity has been reformed and removed from any serious dialogue in ethics and politics. Today you would be deemed immoral and unjust to be against same sex marriage and therefore Christians have had to twist their views and, in turn, disagree with their own holy book. NI has been slower to do this and, like the Middle East, it is more difficult to reform, but it is slowly happening. Same sex marriage is almost in place, for example; and would have been sooner were it not for the disgraceful DUP blocking it being voted in favour.
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    (Original post by l'insegnante)
    My religion has absolutely nothing to do with my views on the topic.
    :rofl:

    Your self-delusion is painful to watch.
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    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    These days I don't think English people do look down on the Irish. But up until even 20 or 30 years ago, there still was substantial prejudice and I think I can identify four particular areas that promoted this view.

    First, from the 12th century onwards when the English crown commenced its conquest of Ireland, the native Irish were viewed as being quite primitive and superstitious. Their culture was perhaps closer to its iron-age roots than were the Anglo-Normans who came to Ireland and whose culture was somewhat more evolved (they knew how to build cathedrals, they had a sophisticated legal system, etc) whereas Ireland was more tribal.

    Second, Ireland was viewed with some contempt from around the English reformation onwards as they were predominantly Catholic, and Catholics were viewed as superstitious (their obsession with saints and miracles, etc) and so this underlined that view of the Irish as being backward. The Irish were also a turbulent subject people and rebellions frequently had to be put down, thus they were viewed as wilfull and stubborn savages.

    Third, from around the 19th century (and continuing even to today) many Irish immigrants started travelling to mainland Britain for work. Many Irish immigrants worked as labourers and had a somewhat itinerant lifestyle. Their manners were rough and lacked the refinement of England, they might spend the money they earned as builders on drink and suchlike. You might compare the view of the Irish in the 19th century perhaps to the way gypsies are viewed today.

    Finally, after the Irish uprisings and independence from the 1910s-1930s, there was a sense of belligerence between England and Ireland. And then when the troubles started in the 1960s/1970s and we saw Irish Republican Army terrorists murdering British soldiers in Northern Ireland, setting off bombs in central London, firing mortars at No.10 Downing Street from just a few blocks away (and almost hitting the Cabinet meeting room whilst the cabinet was in session... the windows were smashed by the force of the blast)... these incidents along with the perceptions of Irish "navvies" and builders, and the vestiges of the historical views of the superstitious, almost tribal, "Papist" (meaning Catholic) Irish solidified as an overall negative perception.

    But I'd say since the Good Friday Accords and peace in Northern Ireland, and since Ireland managed to find its own way to have a modern prosperous economy and evolved from its agrarian base to a service/information economy, a fellow member of the EU, and as the memories of the Troubles and the historical chauvinist and religious views against the Irish faded, so too has the prejudice. I think most people in England are somewhat fond of the Irish. These days it's more like a sibling rivalry (like England and Australia's relationship). We tease each other with reference to supposed national stereotypical traits (the Irish are heavy drinkers and very religious, the English are cold and unemotional etc). I think this trend toward warm and fond feelings will only increase over time
    You're spot on but this was all like 1000 years ago lol
    The modern person if they're against irish it isn't for these reasons directly
    It's simply because of the aftermath of these older issues passed down, tbh kinda like the stereotypes of African Americans in USA is the Irish in England you know what I mean like being criminals, gangsters. dropouts, drunks, lots of kids, scroungers, etc
    But I've seen Irish who have assimilated into English, US and Australian society, they're almost the norm especially if they keep mixing
    The ones fresh off the boat like the "paddies" and that irish are yobs and scallies and hooligans and drunks n that, that's just typical racism
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    (Original post by l'insegnante)
    My religion has absolutely nothing to do with my views on the topic. It's bigoted of you to say so.
    Religion was used as a mask for a political war. Plain and simple as that.

    I see you've declined to reply to my other post and answer my question.
    The Irish accepted Catholicism simply not to be indentured by english anymore
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    I am a proper cliche'd Irish drunk in Manchester. I do our reputation no favours.
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    You're spot on but this was all like 1000 years ago lol
    The modern person if they're against irish it isn't for these reasons directly
    It's simply because of the aftermath of these older issues passed down
    Of course, that's my point as well. That, say, by the 19th century, the main reason for the prejudice was the political situation in Ireland and their perception of Irish immigrants in England who worked as builders and so on. But in the 19th century, your average literate Englishman would also have ancestral memories and prejudices passed down from the previous issue (so they still will have some elements of the old prejudices about religion, backwardness etc). It accumulates over time.

    And then when you get to the late 20th century, the main reason for prejudice is the political situation and the terrorism, but your average Englishman has also inherited the old prejudices. Maybe in the 20th century they're not entirely sure why the Irish are supposed to be primitive and superstitious, and the actual religious reason for it has been long forgotten, but it's like old muscle memory. The various prejudices accrue for different reasons over 1000 years. At later points they will still have echos of the earlier prejudices (while the actual trigger for that earlier prejudice is long forgotten) which mixes in with their contemporary reasons for prejudice.

    My point is though that I think in the last 30 years the relationship has changed beyond recognition. A thousand years of quite visceral prejudice is being discarded, both as the reasons for it no longer exist and also as we evolve as a society
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    The Irish accepted Catholicism simply not to be indentured by english anymore
    I don't think that's true.

    The Irish were converted to Christianity in something like the 6th century, and the Catholic Church's infrastructure was present from very early on. They simply stayed true to Catholicism as did other countries like France, Spain and Italy, while others in Northern Europe converted to protestantism.

    The Irish acceptance of Christianity and adherence to the Papacy long pre-dated the Anglo-Norman invasions of the 12th centuries. Though there's no question that their Catholic status was of some value in connecting them to powerful continental allies following the English reformation; they had some channel for communication and likemindedness to countries like France etc
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    (Original post by macromicro)
    I didn't simply mean offensiveness, I meant the message and atmosphere it creates for new generations and the place as a whole. The parades have helped sustain the divide.
    No it creates opportunity for lessons on respect of other cultures to be taught. And a lesson that just because you do not agree with something it doesn't mean its wrong.

    More to the point, we shouldn't be encouraging anyone to be religious in 2016.
    You clearly need a lesson on respect. It is a human right for someone to practice a religion of their choice.
    Its a good job most people in this world are not as bigoted as yourself.


    You're stating the obvious. It's these problems that give it a poor reputation that the OP is concerned about, hence this thread.
    The problems that will not go away over night. The wounds of the past are healing and progress is being made. Considering the history you cannot expect them to go away. Remove the religion and the problem would still be there.



    No, how severe the problem is in terms of people's divided beliefs. If the problem had washed over, a £20 million, 6 week riot wouldn't have occurred from the removal of a flag. It highlights the deep set and unsolved issues in NI at present.
    A flag has nothing to do with beliefs. Its about political alignment



    I know; of course improvements are being made as people let their religious prejudice drop. The point was that half of students go to schools with nearly 100% students of the same religious beliefs, contrary to your very misleading post that there is lots of mixing. This is the 21st century for crying out loud! The fact you are even happy with improvement in religous mixing of kids is pathetic and very telling. It shouldn't be an issue in the first place for any modern Western country.
    Under half and that was in 2012. Find me more recent statistics and we'll talk more on this particular issue.

    In my teaching career and my school career I have witnessed a lot more mixing in the last 2-3 years than our stereotype suggests.

    As I have said improvement is good but everything isn't going to change over night. Rome wasn't built in a day.



    Of course, I agree, and that is because of the huge decrease in theism and the massive reformation of Christianity in the UK. It has been reformed into nothingness and a contradiction. Everything it was against - homosexuality, gender equality, same sex marriage, blasphemy, abortion - are now cemented in human rights and Christianity has had no choice but to be diluted and thus theism has decreased and atheism has increased. This has been much slower in NI due to its history, hence why it is lagging behind the rest of the mainland.
    You blame far too many of NI's political and social problems on religion. In fact your whole argument has turned into an argument against religion which wasn't what OP posted about.



    You and they had no choice in the matter - you are merely a product of your environment and genes. If you were born in Saudi Arabia you would not have "chosen" to be Christian. You grew up in the most Christian place in the UK and went to a Christian school - shock horror, you "chose" to become a Christian!
    You have no idea where I was born or what my genes are or what my household environment was growing up so don't make assumptions on something you know nothing about :lol I went to an ntegrated school not a Christian one.



    To be Christian proper you must be against them, but Christianity has been reformed and removed from any serious dialogue in ethics and politics. Today you would be deemed immoral and unjust to be against same sex marriage and therefore Christians have had to twist their views and, in turn, disagree with their own holy book. NI has been slower to do this and, like the Middle East, it is more difficult to reform, but it is slowly happening. Same sex marriage is almost in place, for example; and would have been sooner were it not for the disgraceful DUP blocking it being voted in favour.
    Who are you to judge if I am a proper Christian LOL.

    You do not even know what my views on these things are yet you simply assume.

    And fyi to be a Christian you accept Christ as Messiah and Saviour and are justified by your faith if it is true. Therefore, I do not have to follow a set of strict rules to be a 'proper Christian' as you so put it. I follow Biblical teaching but not as you assume I do.
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    (Original post by macromicro)
    :rofl:

    Your self-delusion is painful to watch.
    You do realise you're little bigoted 'insults' make me laugh more than anything else?

    I take no offence to them as they are laughable
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Wanna bet?

    They'll be the types who 'know' it because they saw it on TV.
    Yeah, perhaps a small group.
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    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    Indeed. I think it's important that people don't confuse the teasing between the two nations as evidence of serious dislike; just like the Brits tease the Aussies and the Aussies tease them back. It's like with brothers, you might have a certain competitive spirit and you tease each other, but it doesn't mean you don't love each other. That family relationship allows a degree of familiarity



    I've never heard of that. Are you sure you mean British living in Ireland being viewed disparagingly by British mainlanders, not by the Irish they live amongst? I would have thought most British have no view one way or the other about Brits who migrate to Ireland, it's not an issue I've ever even heard of
    Something I have noticed, personal experience that it would be unfair to paint across everyone, but yeah. They aren't real Brits seems the sentiment, part of the 'Irish' problem that costs mainland UK tax payers money. Again this is just a few people, might not be a mainstream mentality.

    I'm not talking about Brits who move to NI, nth generation colonials who want to be part of the UK. Perhaps some think if they didn't exist they could sweep the problems of Ireland under the rug, I can see how it would be uncomfortable having such a visible example of the recent colonial past so close.
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    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    I don't think that's true.

    The Irish were converted to Christianity in something like the 6th century, and the Catholic Church's infrastructure was present from very early on. They simply stayed true to Catholicism as did other countries like France, Spain and Italy, while others in Northern Europe converted to protestantism.

    The Irish acceptance of Christianity and adherence to the Papacy long pre-dated the Anglo-Norman invasions of the 12th centuries. Though there's no question that their Catholic status was of some value in connecting them to powerful continental allies following the English reformation; they had some channel for communication and likemindedness to countries like France etc
    Christianity is an old faith in Europe especially Catholicism in the middle ages and before that but I'm saying that Catholicism is why they were mainly fighting each other, since their differences in faith prevented stable control of England over Ireland and why it still does. At least that's my opinion. I was agreeing with the other person tat fighting over religion is the smoke screen to fighting for economic reasons. Example: you think the West has a problem with the East because of Islam? No, the main reason is for natural resources that have the UAE rich as balls but the religious differences create this political and economic organisation that prevents mutuality between the East And west, it's similar to the Crusades and Irish Catholicism and Protestantism
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    (Original post by PaulACP)
    I am a proper cliche'd Irish drunk in Manchester. I do our reputation no favours.
    You sound like a top lad
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    (Original post by BeastOfSyracuse)
    Of course, that's my point as well. That, say, by the 19th century, the main reason for the prejudice was the political situation in Ireland and their perception of Irish immigrants in England who worked as builders and so on. But in the 19th century, your average literate Englishman would also have ancestral memories and prejudices passed down from the previous issue (so they still will have some elements of the old prejudices about religion, backwardness etc). It accumulates over time.

    And then when you get to the late 20th century, the main reason for prejudice is the political situation and the terrorism, but your average Englishman has also inherited the old prejudices. Maybe in the 20th century they're not entirely sure why the Irish are supposed to be primitive and superstitious, and the actual religious reason for it has been long forgotten, but it's like old muscle memory. The various prejudices accrue for different reasons over 1000 years. At later points they will still have echos of the earlier prejudices (while the actual trigger for that earlier prejudice is long forgotten) which mixes in with their contemporary reasons for prejudice.

    My point is though that I think in the last 30 years the relationship has changed beyond recognition. A thousand years of quite visceral prejudice is being discarded, both as the reasons for it no longer exist and also as we evolve as a society
    I definitely agree with you there that the 20th cent is for political reasons that have snowballed since the dawn of any issue between Ireland and itself, and England and others. However I'm saying that while they may be literate yea they don't know the exact reason, so it's just the modern racism and nationalism. There's no decisive precise intelligent logical reason for being against the Irish in modern times so they just accuse them of the cliches like being tramps and druggies and criminals and not English and terrorists. I and everyone else I'm sure knows that any Irish terrorism has to do with these generational issues that spawned from long ago, I wasn't tryna minimise those issues, I was trying to minimise the contemporary pointlessness of still having those issues. I only see Irish people being ****ged off if they're in caravans and chavvy and drunken etc because that conveniently gives people that right to say, well there's the Irish
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    (Original post by l'insegnante)
    No it creates opportunity for lessons on respect of other cultures to be taught. And a lesson that just because you do not agree with something it doesn't mean its wrong.

    You clearly need a lesson on respect. It is a human right for someone to practice a religion of their choice.
    Its a good job most people in this world are not as bigoted as yourself.
    I haven't denied any rights. Critcising encouragement of religion is not bigoted or dogmatic, though that it is ironic coming from a Christian.

    The problems that will not go away over night. The wounds of the past are healing and progress is being made. Considering the history you cannot expect them to go away. Remove the religion and the problem would still be there.
    I agree and religion exacerbates those problems by clouding the solution and sustaining the problem.

    A flag has nothing to do with beliefs. Its about political alignment
    Which has its roots in religion.

    You have no idea where I was born or what my genes are or what my household environment was growing up so don't make assumptions on something you know nothing about :lol I went to an ntegrated school not a Christian one.
    It's an easy presumption not an assumption and I was correct - you grew up in the most Christian country in the UK and you went to a Christian school. Its being integrated doesn't mean it's not predominantly Christian. And surprise surprise you became a Christian! And a Saudi girl grows up in one of the most stringent Muslim states and becomes a Muslim - shocker!

    Who are you to judge if I am a proper Christian LOL.

    You do not even know what my views on these things are yet you simply assume.

    And fyi to be a Christian you accept Christ as Messiah and Saviour and are justified by your faith if it is true. Therefore, I do not have to follow a set of strict rules to be a 'proper Christian' as you so put it. I follow Biblical teaching but not as you assume I do.
    Your beliefs are irrelevant to the definition of a Christian proper, i.e. the word of the bible before the modern West reformed it with scientific truth and social justice. I didn't judge you, I said that a Christian proper would not agree with same sex marriage or abortion. "Christians" today accept evolution and the big bang despite the contradictions it creates with their religion. This is called reformation and will continue at this rapid pace we are currently observing.
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    (Original post by PaulACP)
    I am a proper cliche'd Irish drunk in Manchester. I do our reputation no favours.
    Ha! Did you watch London Irish?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaeo-P0fCMQ
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    I definitely agree with you there that the 20th cent is for political reasons that have snowballed since the dawn of any issue between Ireland and itself, and England and others. However I'm saying that while they may be literate yea they don't know the exact reason, so it's just the modern racism and nationalism. There's no decisive precise intelligent logical reason for being against the Irish in modern times so they just accuse them of the cliches like being tramps and druggies and criminals and not English and terrorists. I and everyone else I'm sure knows that any Irish terrorism has to do with these generational issues that spawned from long ago, I wasn't tryna minimise those issues, I was trying to minimise the contemporary pointlessness of still having those issues. I only see Irish people being ****ged off if they're in caravans and chavvy and drunken etc because that conveniently gives people that right to say, well there's the Irish
    Oh completely. I think we're basically in agreement just expressing it in different ways.

    Any remaining prejudice against the Irish is illogical and bigoted, and all of the original reasons were the same. There's a continuous line of prejudice against the Irish running from the 12th century to today, there are different reasons at different times but the prejudice is a constant. And as you say the small minority who do have anti-Irish prejudices probably don't know why they hate them, or even anything of the politics or history, they're just nationalist idiots
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    (Original post by macromicro)
    I haven't denied any rights. Critcising encouragement of religion is not bigoted or dogmatic, though that it is ironic coming from a Christian.



    I agree and religion exacerbates those problems by clouding the solution and sustaining the problem.



    Which has its roots in religion.



    It's an easy presumption not an assumption and I was correct - you grew up in the most Christian country in the UK and you went to a Christian school. Its being integrated doesn't mean it's not predominantly Christian. And surprise surprise you became a Christian! And a Saudi girl grows up in one of the most stringent Muslim states and becomes a Muslim - shocker!



    Your beliefs are irrelevant to the definition of a Christian proper, i.e. the word of the bible before the modern West reformed it with scientific truth and social justice. I didn't judge you, I said that a Christian proper would not agree with same sex marriage or abortion. "Christians" today accept evolution and the big bang despite the contradictions it creates with their religion. This is called reformation and will continue at this rapid pace we are currently observing.
    No you're assuming my parents are both from Northern Ireland and that I've spent my whole life here and have somehow been indoctrinated by NI. However, you have no idea where I was born, where I went to school before the age of 14 or where my parents come from.

    Yes you are bigoted as you refuse to respect the fact that other have different value and belief systems from you.


    You claim to know so much about Northern Ireland and how to solve all our problems. Yet everything you say is some form of stereotype.

    I'm a Christian and the Bible is my truth out of my own choices. However, also out of my own choice I support Gay marriage as it is not my right to judge what others do with their lives; I support abortion in certain circumstances and I also support euthanasia under some circumstances.

    In 2016 NI's problems are political, the same as they were in 1916.
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    (Original post by l'insegnante)
    No you're assuming my parents are both from Northern Ireland and that I've spent my whole life here and have somehow been indoctrinated by NI. However, you have no idea where I was born, where I went to school before the age of 14 or where my parents come from.
    I never mentioned your parents. This isn't an opinion or up for debate - religious beliefs are heavily influenced by environment which is why you will find less new Christians in India than Muslims and more new Christians in NI than Hindus.

    You do not have free will. You are a product of your nature and nurture like everyone else.

    Yes you are bigoted as you refuse to respect the fact that other have different value and belief systems from you.
    No I disagree with new generations being encouraged to be religious, e.g. faith schools (i.e. indoctrination centres). I agree with all attempts to maximise freedom of thought via a neutral environment and the scientific method.

    I'm a Christian and the Bible is my truth out of my own choices. However, also out of my own choice I support Gay marriage as it is not my right to judge what others do with their lives; I support abortion in certain circumstances and I also support euthanasia under some circumstances.
    Like I said, you are a reformed Christian. You have those beliefs because of the brave efforts of homosexuals in standing up to traditional Christianity. If you were born a little earlier you wouldn't have those beliefs. You have them because society forced Christianity to reform. One day the same will be done with Islam too - we are already making progress. Ultimately, as reformation continues as it has done, the world will be entirely secular and religion-free.

    And you didn't choose anything. You cannot will yourself to will something. The choice was made already, you simply acted it out.

    In 2016 NI's problems are political, the same as they were in 1916.
    Political, social, ethical, religious, financial, geographical... There are a variety of problems. "Political" is a vague and loosely defined term that could mean all those.words in one.
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    (Original post by AccountingBabe)
    Because they associate us with "pikeys". Lol

    Irish?

    Wow.
 
 
 
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