Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Out voters call everything they don't like "project fear" Watch

    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RollerBall)
    Secondly; read: http://www.niesr.ac.uk/blog/after-br...u#.VyNSZHrDt3U

    I really don't get where everyone thinks the EU would be falling over backwards to make a trade deal, unless you think we live in the 18th century and all of our trade is in goods?
    Because a drop in trade of just a few percentage points would result in a negative growth for most EU states as their growth is currently barely above 0%.

    (Original post by RollerBall)
    Your second point is a joke, right? If they are so important to the Spanish economy, do you not think they would granted permission to stay? You reckon that the Spanish economy is being propped up by British tourists and immigrants, then if we leave the EU they will kick them all out, and according to your logic tank their own economy? Come on.
    British residents in Spain will be allowed to stay, but it is vital for the Spanish economy that the flow of British pensioners and tourists doesn't stop.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Josb)
    Because a drop in trade of just a few percentage points would result in a negative growth for most EU states as their growth is currently barely above 0%.



    British residents in Spain will be allowed to stay, but it is vital for the Spanish economy that the flow of British pensioners and tourists doesn't stop.
    Can you provide any sort of analysis or evidence that a drop in trade with the UK will result in a decline in growth for EU member states, considerable enough to put them into the negative?

    EDIT: And for the love of all that is holy, don't link me a ****ing telegraph article.
    EDIT EDIT: Your latter point I think is redundant. I don't see how minor visa restrictions is going to prevent tourism or retirement to the Algarve. Not that this is going to factor even remotely in whether the EU is going to scramble to arrange trade deals - these very trade deals are very likely to include free movement anyway!
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    I'm voting to remain but let's face reality. There's one side using fear as a primary tactic in their campaigns/arguments and it sure as hell isn't the brexiters.......
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    I'm voting to remain but let's face reality.
    Why are you voting to remain?

    (I am also voting remain, just curious in your rationale.)
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by RollerBall)
    Can you provide any sort of analysis or evidence that a drop in trade with the UK will result in a decline in growth for EU member states, considerable enough to put them into the negative?

    EDIT: And for the love of all that is holy, don't link me a ****ing telegraph article.
    EDIT EDIT: Your latter point I think is redundant. I don't see how minor visa restrictions is going to prevent tourism or retirement to the Algarve. Not that this is going to factor even remotely in whether the EU is going to scramble to arrange trade deals - these very trade deals are very likely to include free movement anyway!
    With a weak growth, high unemployment and deficit, and political uncertainty in France, Spain and Italy, you can imagine the effect on their economy if it's more difficult for them to export to a country with which they have a large surplus.

    I think you have misinterpreted my intentions. I only responded to users like OP who basically said that the EU is going to punish the UK for leaving. I said that they will never do that because they need the UK as well, and will therefore rapidly reach a trade deal that keeps most of the current arrangements. I have consistently said that leaving will not change much for the UK.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    OP is a tiresome child who hasn't been taught humility or moderation. Unfortunately this makes the forum less pleasant for everyone on either side.

    The relevance is that OP is currently doing his A levels, and seems to have formed the opinion that this makes him some kind of ivory tower intellectual.
    Op is a child then who hasn't lived in the real world yet.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by _icecream)
    Op is a child then who hasn't lived in the real world yet.
    Dismissing facts with "OP is a child". You're confirming my point.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Calling people you don't agree with stupid is not going to win you any favours, JordanL. People have legitimate fears about the EU and letting them voice their opinion is important. You're accusing the 'Leave' campaign of scaremongering (on a regular basis) but fail to see the flaws in either the 'In' campaign or in the EU itself. This entire discussion lacks any civility and rather than basing it on facts, both sides are just attempting to place labels on their opponent.

    It's equally worrying that you are suggesting that a referendum should not be held. You are suggesting that people should not have the right to voice their opinion and that in itself is the very definition of fascism.

    For a nation that has done so much for democracy, it's sad to see what it's becoming.
    The UK has never been a true democracy. The public has never been able to make direct decisions. We elect a party to run the country, we don't run the country ourselves, and there's a reason for that.

    Most people just don't know enough about the complex issues in politics today to make these decisions. I've spent many hours doing my own research and looked at a lot of first hand sources, but I still don't believe I should have a say in our EU membership because I don't know enough about it. Most people aren't going to spend hours researching, and most people get most of their information from mainstream media. They're heavily influenced by that.

    It takes a full-time commitment to be able to have a solid understanding of all these issues, and that's why we employ politicians.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by JordanL_)
    The UK has never been a true democracy. The public has never been able to make direct decisions. We elect a party to run the country, we don't run the country ourselves, and there's a reason for that.

    Most people just don't know enough about the complex issues in politics today to make these decisions. I've spent many hours doing my own research and looked at a lot of first hand sources, but I still don't believe I should have a say in our EU membership because I don't know enough about it. Most people aren't going to spend hours researching, and most people get most of their information from mainstream media. They're heavily influenced by that.

    It takes a full-time commitment to be able to have a solid understanding of all these issues, and that's why we employ politicians.
    This is a highly flawed line of reasoning, JordanL. Your assumption is that because 'we' don't understand the complex issues, the people we elect, say, MPs or the PM know better (they may; they may not). Do I believe Corbyn or Cameron have our best interests at heart, 100% of the time? Not at all. I have far more trust in my fellow voter than a politician. That is not to say that government does not have a role to play, but it's role should be minimal.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by KimKallstrom)
    I'm voting to remain but let's face reality. There's one side using fear as a primary tactic in their campaigns/arguments and it sure as hell isn't the brexiters.......
    They're as bad as each other

    Ukip implying all of Europe will migrate to the UK
    Vote Leave saying that Turkey is about to join and that our NHS will collapse
    IDS saying a Brussels style attack is more likely

    ( I think that making dog-whistle conspiratorial claims about an evil NWO establishment that hates Britain is akin to fear mongering too- )
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aceadria)
    This is a highly flawed line of reasoning, JordanL. Your assumption is that because 'we' don't understand the complex issues, the people we elect, say, MPs or the PM know better (they may; they may not). Do I believe Corbyn or Cameron have our best interests at heart, 100% of the time? Not at all. That is not to say that government does not have a role to play, but it's role should be minimal.
    I understand but do not accept this reasoning.

    Do economists, doctors, scientists etc get things wrong? Of course they do. That doesn't make anyone discussing those issues as qualified as professionals. Just because Mervyn King failed to predict the economic crash doesn't make Dave the cleaner from hackney as qualified to talk on economic matters.

    I have far more trust in my fellow voter than a politician*
    I don't believe this to be a valid argument; its essentially a way of legitimating ones own biases which coincides with the status quo.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Davij038)
    I understand but do not accept this reasoning.

    Do economists, doctors, scientists etc get things wrong? Of course they do. That doesn't make anyone discussing those issues as qualified as professionals. Just because Mervyn King failed to predict the economic crash doesn't make Dave the cleaner from hackney as qualified to talk on economic matters.
    That's not what he was suggesting. He's essentially suggesting that a threshold needs to be set after which someone's vote can be considered 'educated'. Where does one draw the line?

    (Original post by Davij038)
    I don't believe this to be a valid argument; its essentially a way of legitimating ones own biases which coincides with the status quo.
    Hardly. If I am to live with the decision of a referendum, then I should have to trust and respect my fellow citizen's opinion. To give up that 'right' simply because we are told we are ignorant is dangerous.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Aceadria)
    That's not what he was suggesting. He's essentially suggesting that a threshold needs to be set after which someone's vote can be considered 'educated'. Where does one draw the line?
    Ah then that is a different question, my mistake. I know that a number of brexiters notably Dan Hamadan advocate the view that I challenged.

    Hardly. If I am to live with the decision of a referendum, then I should have to trust and respect my fellow citizen's opinion. To give up that 'right' simply because we are told we are ignorant is dangerous.
    You should respect those whose views are at least somewhat informed and rational. Treat voters as individuals lest you end up sounding demagogical as Mr Farage is prone to '"we" the British people...' - there are people in this debate who for real think that the EU is as bad as Nazi Germany, or that the UK cannot possibly survive outside the EU. These people are idiots.
 
 
 
Reply
Submit reply
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: May 3, 2016
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    What's your favourite Christmas sweets?
    Useful resources

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.