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    (Original post by TheGuyReturns)
    Because the vast majority of girls, deep down still expect to get into an LTR / marry a guy who is decently paid.
    this
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    (Original post by sachinisgod)
    even if that means stacking shelves after graduation because employers think that degree is useless?

    If you want to do a degree for emotional reasons rather than actually giving something back the country by atleast being employable after graduation ( so you can pay tax), then you should pay the £9000 per year tution fee yourself without getting sponsored by a government loan scheme.
    There has to be balance I guess but I personally feel you should only go to uni if you're aiming to earn above £21,000. I know girls who are studying geography or classics but they're at top unis (oxbridge) so hopefully they'll have high employment prospects. On the bright side if you do study a mickey mouse course at least you won't be getting coronary heart disease at the age of 50 as you'll have less work stressors.
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    (Original post by SA-1)
    Google says on average, teachers will earn £30k after 10 years of experience
    Google says on average, engineers will earn £60k+ after 10 years of experience

    Thoughts.
    Well actually that is incorrect. Here is the list:
    http://www.reed.co.uk/average-salary/engineering

    average would be about 45K after about 10 years (with a MASTERs and CERTIFIED). A certified Engineer, equates to a teacher with a PhD (it takes four years work experience before you get that far and the exam - you also need a masters degree that takes four years).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charte...r_registration

    Government also offers PhD graduates over £40K to work in the classroom (taking into account gov pension packages are miles better than private industry)
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/p...-the-classroom

    So a Certified male dominated engineer gets not significantly more than woman dominated teaching profession in like for like example
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    I wish people would stop saying crap like this. The reason that engineering is so crap in the UK is because engineers are so poorly paid. Its really is shocking how little an engineer earns (about £23K at start to about £35K when miles older). What sort of "high-paying" are you on about?
    Dad's salary as an engineer before going into management was ~£70-80k. Friends starting at oil and gas companies, engineering consulting companies etc all started on over £30k.

    The average starting salary for an engineer at a 'normal' company is more £25-30k.

    It can be high paying, if you choose the right industries and companies.

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    Generally lack the same drive/intellectual rigour vs. more interested in social/emotional, linguistic, and generally dreamy stuff :daydreaming: Realtalk
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    (Original post by The_Internet)
    Define "engineer" I mean technically I'm an engineer
    Yes - exactly, its too broad a "career definition" to be meaningful in anyway. You might get an IT "nerd" who sits in a chair all day or an oil worker on a North Sea rig. There is no connection at all. That was basically my point.

    Its not the degrees that effect peoples life chances, its more connected to: are they willing to travel ABROAD or huge distances AFTER they have married and have a family. Do they want to be home makes more than money grabbers?

    I suggest to you if you removed all the men from the list who got a big pay rise via working abroad for a few years you will probably fine that the differences in pay between the sexes is not as great as you would imagine.

    Many men (and some women) get their first big break when they get a job over 1000 miles away from home.
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    Social, education and care type roles are not very well paid as they tend to be generic and require less brain power.
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    (Original post by CHEETS)
    Not true at all. You decisions are determined by the conditioning you receive at young age. And attitudes that women simply can't do science absolutely do exist. remember Tim Hunt, the influential Nobel Laureate who seemed to think that women in science labs fall in love with you and cry or something. Its impossible for little girls' decision-making abilities NOT to be influenced by this crap that's being thrust on them from all directions.
    I beg to differ. Ethnicity is a factor that affects the numbers of women in STEM. Even in America, you will seea higher percentage of Asian females in STEM compared to Caucasian females. Both have been exposed to this mysogynistic view you mentioned above yet the Asian females do seem to do better. That is something to think about. So I don't agree with "You decisions are determined by the conditioning you receive at young age" unless you believe that this condition is done by the female's parents and not by other people.
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    (Original post by Kvothe the arcane)
    Social, education and care type roles are not very well paid as they tend to be generic and require less brain power.
    There is no single measure of "brain power". In fact, I haven't even seen that term mentioned in the neuroscience literature. So my guess is that your assertion above is made up.
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    (Original post by Princepieman)
    Dad's salary as an engineer before going into management was ~£70-80k. Friends starting at oil and gas companies, engineering consulting companies etc all started on over £30k.

    The average starting salary for an engineer at a 'normal' company is more £25-30k.

    It can be high paying, if you choose the right industries and companies.

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    That is my point engineering is too broad a term.
    Its well known that CHEMICAL engineers - especially oil related, could earn very large sums (often by travelling all over the globe). But a graduate engineer building a road or a house does not get these large sums you're dad got.
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    (Original post by saladays)
    I love all these "Why do girls..." questions, like every girl is this weird, extraterrestrial creature and each acts in the same strange ways as the other :-)

    Not all girls do this. I'd agree that women do tend to lean over to the arts, though. But why is that such a bad job? I'll be studying English soon. I'm confident in my ability and my future.

    If anyone works hard enough they can have the job they want. You can have anything you want. You just have to be willing to work for it. I'm very motivated and I think I'll succeed in my career path, but it's up to me and only me to work hard and make sure it happens.

    No choices are better than others, they're all down to preference. Why not do something you love? You're often better and more passionate in it, and so you are more likely to succeed in it :-)
    Just aiming at the bolded bits. It is false. If there are 3 jobs and the 4 candidates are equally willing to work for it, it doesn't mean that they will get one of the 3 jobs. One of them will not get a job no matter how hard he/she tries. His/her only chance to get a job is to hope that another candidate is not trying as hard. And even working hard is not guarantee of success. Spending 1000 hours analysing a random piece of literature won't get you anywhere. Working smart is better than working hard.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    I beg to differ. Ethnicity is a factor that affects the numbers of women in STEM. Even in America, you will seea higher percentage of Asian females in STEM compared to Caucasian females. Both have been exposed to this mysogynistic view you mentioned above yet the Asian females do seem to do better. That is something to think about. So I don't agree with "You decisions are determined by the conditioning you receive at young age" unless you believe that this condition is done by the female's parents and not by other people.
    Ok, this is wrong on so many levels.

    Asians are more socially geared to science degrees than some other cultures as a whole.

    WITHIN the asian community, however, you will still find relatively more male scientists and engineers and more female stay at home parents, teachers, nurses, due to prevailing social expectations of men and women. Do you get what I mean?

    In fact, the negative effect of traditional gender roles is so bad in Asian cultures that they actually have a much lower female labour force participation ratio compared to western countries. This means that social constructs of feminine gender roles not only stop them from working in STEM fields, but even working at all, due to the expectation of raising a family full-time.

    Yes, there are lots of asian women engineers, but there are far far more male asian engineers than female. you have to compare apples to apples.

    And yes, of course I mean conditioned by their parents. Who the hell else is a 2yr old going to be conditioned by? Parents are part of society and influenced by society are they not?
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    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    That is my point engineering is too broad a term.
    Its well known that CHEMICAL engineers - especially oil related, could earn very large sums (often by travelling all over the globe). But a graduate engineer building a road or a house does not get these large sums you're dad got.
    Not all of them were chemical engineers. O&G companies pay similar levels to their grad chem engineers and other engineers in their grad intake (Elec/Civil etc) as well as to people in their IT departments - they night pay similarly for nontechnical staff but I don't have any points of reference for that.

    That was his salary here in the UK, when we were moving around globally it would have been higher once you factored in paid for housing, paid for flights, danger pay, free school fees (albeit he got that here too before deciding to switch companies) etc.

    An engineer working for an engineering consulting firm, Arup for example, doing what you've said (building roads) would still earn a lot.

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    (Original post by Ladymusiclover)
    There has to be balance I guess but I personally feel you should only go to uni if you're aiming to earn above £21,000. I know girls who are studying geography or classics but they're at top unis (oxbridge) so hopefully they'll have high employment prospects. On the bright side if you do study a mickey mouse course at least you won't be getting coronary heart disease at the age of 50 as you'll have less work stressors.
    Yes, you will. Mickey mouse will lead to a low-paying position which will lead to not enough money to live which will lead to stress.

    (Original post by FredOrJohn)
    Well actually that is incorrect. Here is the list:
    http://www.reed.co.uk/average-salary/engineering

    average would be about 45K after about 10 years (with a MASTERs and CERTIFIED). A certified Engineer, equates to a teacher with a PhD (it takes four years work experience before you get that far and the exam - you also need a masters degree that takes four years).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charte...r_registration

    Government also offers PhD graduates over £40K to work in the classroom (taking into account gov pension packages are miles better than private industry)
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/p...-the-classroom

    So a Certified male dominated engineer gets not significantly more than woman dominated teaching profession in like for like example
    Did you even read the article? They don't get paid £40K permanently to teach, they get UP TO (and not OVER) £40K to enroll in a 2-year training programme. Once they finish the programme and look for a teaching job, they won't earn anywhere near £40K unless they take on a large number of senior managerial responsibilities (and even then, that salary will most likely only happen in London which has sky-high living costs). Most teachers don't have a PhD, btw. There was a push towards making them more uni-educated by giving them the chance to do a MA but now the push is towards letting schools hire unqualified teachers (obviously, this brings the salaries of certified teachers down due to the increased competition). I would bet you 10 pints that there are more certified engineers than teachers (secondary school level and below) with a PhD.
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    (Original post by CHEETS)
    Ok, this is wrong on so many levels.

    1. Asians are more socially geared to science degrees than some other cultures as a whole.

    2. WITHIN the asian community, however, you will still find relatively more male scientists and engineers and more female stay at home parents, teachers, nurses, due to prevailing social expectations of men and women. Do you get what I mean?

    3. And yes, of course I mean conditioned by their parents. Who the hell else is a 2yr old going to be conditioned by?
    1. Didn't you understand what I said? I said Asian females IN AMERICA (aka exposed to the same social expectations than Caucasian females).

    2. My point is that Asian females do seem to be into STEM more than Caucasian females, so obviously, society alone does not determine whether you will be willing to jump into STEM (which is what you were implying).

    3. All those people who spend more time with the child than their parents. Let us see: all his teachers, his peers and the stories he hears at school/tv/movie/books. Unless you assume that all parents spend their child's childhood in a locked room with the child or you assume that the parents are unemployed, the child is highly likely to have a lot of exposure to other people's views. Hence my point, Caucasian and Asian females in America share this exposure, yet the enrollment rates in STEM are different.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    1. Didn't you understand what I said? I said Asian females IN AMERICA (aka exposed to the same social expectations than Caucasian females). You think Asian women in America don't have any Asian influences? This made me lmao (being Asian British). How do you explain that the female labour force participation rate for Asian women IN AMERICA is far lower than the labour force participation for white women?

    2. My point is that Asian females do seem to be into STEM more than Caucasian females, so obviously, society alone does not determine whether you will be willing to jump into STEM (which is what you were implying). Of course it doesn't determine it ALONE. What the hell have you been reading. I SAID there is a cultural preference for STEM fields among Asains. Like one of my first statements!! But even WITHIN the Asian community, it is MORE encouraged of boys.

    3. All those people who spend more time with the child than their parents. Let us see: all his teachers, his peers and the stories he hears at school/tv/movie/books. Unless you assume that all parents spend their child's childhood in a locked room with the child or you assume that the parents are unemployed, the child is highly likely to have a lot of exposure to other people's views. Hence my point, Caucasian and Asian females in America share this exposure, yet the enrollment rates in STEM are different AMERICAN teachers, movies, books whatever do impose gender rules. Asians like science so more Asian women study science. BUT FEWER ASIAN WOMEN THAN ASIAN MEN STUDY SCIENCE TO DUE CONDITIONING EVEN IN AMERICA.
    Its like talking to a brick wall.

    There's been loads of papers written on the gender role conditioning effect. Its a very widely accepted phenomenon. If you have the time to argue with me on TSR you have the time to read them.
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    (Original post by picklescamp)
    well that's just absolute ******** :lol:

    pretty sure that girls, like guys, do the subject they're interested. In my experience men seem to have more of an interest in science or maths whereas far more girls do humanities (judging from the gender balances of the classes I and my friends take at school.) I feel like regardless of gender people pursue a degree which interests them, be that philosophy or compsci. I would rather be paid less doing a job that I love than be paid more to do a job that bores me or that I hate.
    However, the degree I hope to be doing next year has highly paid employment prospects (avg. £22,000 salary 6 months after graduation) so I don't exactly fit this trend.
    buy me stuff pls k thnx
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    Comparison not valid. You should compare the pay of a Physics grad. It is way above £5 per hour.
    That was a joke with me taking the piss at him. If I wanted to cover it up/imply something, I wouldn't have said Romania in the first place. He thought even in the UK I wouldn't have earned more than my father (as a chef) in a humanities field, primarily because Romanians still discredit at any Humanities discipline since the good ol' commie days, when intelligentsia's place was primarily in prison for dissing or questioning the system, and engineers and doctors were at the highest demand.

    Neither of us are graduates anyway, and my job's part time, as I am still in university.

    Still, starter jobs in the EU institutions come at 40k per annum :perv:. Not my ideal place to work, as I don't share their current "uncodified" values, but hey, 40k is 40k.
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    (Original post by Juichiro)
    Comparison not valid. You should compare the pay of a Physics grad. It is way above £5 per hour.
    What job classifies as 'physics grad'?

    I really don't get how you guys are attaching £££s to degrees that don't lead to any discernable jobs and for which the jobs these grads go into are entirely subjective on whichever area tickles their fancy.

    Maths, Physics, NatSci, Biology etc don't lead to any specific jobs. However much these grads end up earning is a result of a randomised selection of careers they choose to pursue.

    Even engineering grads don't all go into engineering...

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