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    (Original post by giveupbeth)
    This is going nowhere. I am glad you believe in equality but I believe you are siding with the wrong side in this debate. You disagree. That is fine. You aren't being rude or offensive, so let's leave it at this.
    Good idea.
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    (Original post by TheIr0nDuke)
    But it wasn't just about the attitudes of society was it? Right to vote, abortion, equal opportunity etc.

    Western women are one of the most privileged groups in the world now. Like I replied earlier, if feminists want to help women, help those that are being oppressed in Islamic countries. Or would that be 'racist'?
    What? I said it is societal attitudes that make you feel like 3rd wave isn't achieving anything.

    How would that be racist?
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    (Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes)
    What? I said it is societal attitudes that make you feel like 3rd wave isn't achieving anything.

    How would that be racist?
    No, it isn't achieving anything, except division between genders.

    That's usually the first, go-to response by feminists when asked why they don't help Islamic women.
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    (Original post by giveupbeth)
    If you genuinely are for equality, you are a feminist. I'm sorry, but saying that meninism is for equal rights when there is evidence to contrary is unhelpful. There is no need for a secondary equal rights movement when we already have feminism, and the majority of meninists aren't actually fighting for equal rights. It literally started as a parody account of anti-feminists.
    That's a circular argument. It's also clearly untrue. You can stand for equality without being in favour of positive discrimination or quotas. You can stand for equality with believing in things like the gender pay gap (which is a totally fictitious construct) or rape culture (which doesn't exist in Western Europe, or didn't until the influx of Middle Eastern and North African men). You can stand for equality whilst not thinking there is something wrong with men and women making different choices in career path, and believing that there are fundamental differences between the minds of men and women.

    Saying you believe in equality, therefore you're a feminist, is equivalent to saying anyone who believes in a deity is Christian.
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    (Original post by TheonlyMrsHolmes)
    No of course, of course!! I meant when 3rd wave ends and 4th begins, you will see the significance of the 3rd. I didn't make that very clear.

    For the most part I think 3rd wave has changed attitudes of people, people have to now clarify they are not being sexist, people don't just come out with sexist things. People notice sexism more.

    But when it comes to structural feminist and intersectional feminism, those ideas began with the 2nd wave.
    Oh sorry! I misunderstood your comment. I agree these are ideas that began with the second wave, but I find that it is in the third wave that change has really been made, although of course there is still so far to go as posts such as those on this thread show.
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    (Original post by giveupbeth)
    They're a bunch of self-gratifying losers who only care about putting feminists down, so, you know, just wondering.
    You know meninism is a parody of feminism right? So meninists are literally trolls.
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    (Original post by TheIr0nDuke)
    No, it isn't achieving anything, except division between genders.

    That's usually the first, go-to response by feminists when asked why they don't help Islamic women.
    No is isn't causing gender divisions, gender divisions are caused when the other the male gender blames feminists for their lack of success in life. You don't have a girl friend? blame feminists. Your a virgin at 40? blame the feminists. Your wife doesn't want to be a housewife? blame feminists.

    Women finding themselves and their independence is not a reason to blame feminists. Although I can understand why the radical feminists piss men off, but it's fair to say they piss the other feminists off too. The moderate feminists that do stand for equality.

    No it's not "racist", how is that racist? It is however difficult and there is so much feminists themselves can do. A lot of islamic women are perfectly happy with their way of life and you can't change that, feminists can only do so much. It's governments, laws, mosques etc that need to intervene to fight for equality but that obviously isn't going to happen anytime soon.
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    (Original post by giveupbeth)
    Oh sorry! I misunderstood your comment. I agree these are ideas that began with the second wave, but I find that it is in the third wave that change has really been made, although of course there is still so far to go as posts such as those on this thread show.
    Definitely!
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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    That's a circular argument. It's also clearly untrue. You can stand for equality without being in favour of positive discrimination or quotas. You can stand for equality with believing in things like the gender pay gap (which is a totally fictitious construct) or rape culture (which doesn't exist in Western Europe, or didn't until the influx of Middle Eastern and North African men). You can stand for equality whilst not thinking there is something wrong with men and women making different choices in career path, and believing that there are fundamental differences between the minds of men and women.

    Saying you believe in equality, therefore you're a feminist, is equivalent to saying anyone who believes in a deity is Christian.
    I disagree with p much everything here. Firstly, the pay gap is not a construct and you clearly need to do more research; secondly, rape culture does exist in Western Europe, it is a global issue- try reading Louise O'Neil's Asking For It perhaps for some insight- which leads to thousands of rapes going unreported every year. Also your belief that it is to do with immigrants is inherently racist.

    There is biological evidence that almost all, if not all, of the differences between men and women are socially constructed. Again, do your research. It is all down to the way we are raised- girls strength is underestimated and so they often end up weaker, boys are told thing like 'boys don't cry' and become emotionally distant.

    You're final point is simply not relevant- they are two completely different situations.
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    (Original post by Asiimov)
    You know meninism is a parody of feminism right? So meninists are literally trolls.
    This was the origin of meninism certainly, but many people took it to be serious and passionately defend it- just read through some of the posts in this thread.
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    (Original post by giveupbeth)
    I disagree with p much everything here. Firstly, the pay gap is not a construct and you clearly need to do more research; secondly, rape culture does exist in Western Europe, it is a global issue- try reading Louise O'Neil's Asking For It perhaps for some insight- which leads to thousands of rapes going unreported every year. Also your belief that it is to do with immigrants is inherently racist.

    There is biological evidence that almost all, if not all, of the differences between men and women are socially constructed. Again, do your research. It is all down to the way we are raised- girls strength is underestimated and so they often end up weaker, boys are told thing like 'boys don't cry' and become emotionally distant.

    You're final point is simply not relevant- they are two completely different situations.
    I'll go through these points one by one for clarity's sake:

    1) The pay gap is absolutely a construct. Like, it's utterly refuted. The regularly quoted figure is something like women earn around 20% less than men. This figure is arrived at by adding up all the money men and women earn, and comparing the numbers. This is obviously a daft way to do such a comparison. If you compare men and women in the same role, working the same hours and with the same level of education, the pay gap drops to between 3% in favour of men, to 3% in favour of women. In fact, under the age of 35, the pay gap is most definitely in favour of women:

    http://time.com/3222543/5-feminist-m...-will-not-die/
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagn.../#2edd652d4766
    http://now.org/resource/the-gender-p...-myth-vs-fact/
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ha...rticle/2580405
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...rning-more-men

    2) What on earth definition of rape culture are you using, to suggest that there is such an attitude in the West?! I'm gonna go with the dictionary definition, which defines rape culture as 'a society where rape is pervasive and normalised, as a result of attitudes towards gender and sexuality'. Now, last time I checked, rape is neither pervasive nor normalised in the West. You want to see what a rape culture looks like, try this BBC piece on South Africa:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8107039.stm

    That's what a rape culture is. Nowhere in the West does such a culture exist, so your claim is a nonsense. And how can you claim that thousands of rapes go unreported every year (I presume you mean in Britain); surely the definition of unreported claims is we don't know about them? If you can provide a source corroborating this I'd appreciate it.

    3) Believing the migrants from the Middle East and North Africa hold deeply abhorrent views towards women is racist?! That's a ridiculous assertion, especially when it's blatantly true that such views are commonplace in these regions. Do you not see the irony in someone who champions feminism defending cultures who oppose more or less everything feminism stands for?

    4) I'm not denying that social conditioning plays a part; it absolutely does. But the claim that there is no biological basis for the differences in choices men and women make is outdated by some 20 years. This documentary is a prime example:



    Of particular interest are two studies it quotes. Firstly, a study done on 50 odd countries which showed that as societies become more equal, less women choose to enter 'male-dominated' fields like STEM subjects. The reason being that in more backwards countries, women chooses the subjects they need to in order to make a living. But in countries with social welfare and the like, they choose what they want to. The other study was one done on 2 week old babies. They placed the babies on the floor surrounded by toys and left them alone in the room. The study showed that girls almost always went to play with dolls and faces, whereas boys would play with mechanical things like building blocks. And before you suggest this could be social conditioning, the same trend is observed in the offspring of all mammals. Whilst social conditioning most definitely does play a part in the differences between men and women, there is strong evidence that biology also plays a part.

    5) How are they different? You're claiming that anyone who believes in equality is a feminist, regardless of any other differences in opinion. I'm saying anyone who believes in a god is a Christian, regardless of any other differences in opinion. The logic being used is essentially the same.
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    (Original post by giveupbeth)
    I disagree with p much everything here. Firstly, the pay gap is not a construct and you clearly need to do more research; secondly, rape culture does exist in Western Europe, it is a global issue- try reading Louise O'Neil's Asking For It perhaps for some insight- which leads to thousands of rapes going unreported every year. Also your belief that it is to do with immigrants is inherently racist.

    There is biological evidence that almost all, if not all, of the differences between men and women are socially constructed. Again, do your research. It is all down to the way we are raised- girls strength is underestimated and so they often end up weaker, boys are told thing like 'boys don't cry' and become emotionally distant.

    You're final point is simply not relevant- they are two completely different situations.
    Boo hoo, being a social justice warrior in the 21st century is so hard with people disagreeing with you. They are all such bigots aren't they. :'(


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    Though in all seriousness I agree with Bubbles on Page 2.


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    (Original post by Luke Kostanjsek)
    I'll go through these points one by one for clarity's sake:

    1) The pay gap is absolutely a construct. Like, it's utterly refuted. The regularly quoted figure is something like women earn around 20% less than men. This figure is arrived at by adding up all the money men and women earn, and comparing the numbers. This is obviously a daft way to do such a comparison. If you compare men and women in the same role, working the same hours and with the same level of education, the pay gap drops to between 3% in favour of men, to 3% in favour of women. In fact, under the age of 35, the pay gap is most definitely in favour of women:

    http://time.com/3222543/5-feminist-m...-will-not-die/
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/karinagn.../#2edd652d4766
    http://now.org/resource/the-gender-p...-myth-vs-fact/
    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/ha...rticle/2580405
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...rning-more-men

    2) What on earth definition of rape culture are you using, to suggest that their is such an attitude in the West?! I'm gonna go with the dictionary definition, which defines rape culture as 'a society where rape is pervasive and normalised, as a result of attitudes towards gender and sexuality'. Now, last time I checked, rape is neither pervasive nor normalised in the West. You want to see what a rape culture looks like, try this BBC piece on South Africa:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8107039.stm

    That's what a rape culture is. Nowhere in the West does such a culture exist, so your claim is a nonsense. And how can you claim that thousands of rapes go unreported every year (I presume you mean in Britain); surely the definition of unreported claims is we don't know about them? If you can provide a source corroborating this I'd appreciate it.

    3) Believing the migrants from the Middle East and North Africa hold deeply abhorrent views towards women is racist?! That's a ridiculous assertion, especially when it's blatantly true that such views are commonplace in these regions. Do you not see the irony in someone who champions feminism defending cultures who oppose more or less everything feminism stands for?

    4) I'm not denying that social conditioning plays a part; it absolutely does. But the claim that there is no biological basis for the differences in choices men and women make is outdated by some 20 years. This documentary is a prime example:



    Of particular interest are two studies it quotes. Firstly, a study done on 50 odd countries which showed that as societies become more equal, less women choose to enter 'male-dominated' fields like STEM subjects. The reason being that in more backwards countries, women chooses the subjects they need to in order to make a living. But in countries with social welfare and the like, they choose what they want to. The other study was one done on 2 week old babies. They placed the babies on the floor surrounded by toys and left them alone in the room. The study showed that girls almost always went to play with dolls and faces, whereas boys would play with mechanical things like building blocks. And before you suggest this could be social conditioning, the same trend is observed in the offspring of all mammals. Whilst social conditioning most definitely does play a part in the differences between men and women, there is strong evidence that biology also plays a part.

    4) How are they different? You're claiming that anyone who believes in equality is a feminist, regardless of any other differences in opinion. I'm saying anyone who believes in a god is a Christian, regardless of any other differences in opinion. The logic being used is essentially the same.
    You're evidence is biased towards your own point of view. I have read plenty of evidence to support my own. It is easy to select evidence to support what you are claiming- any idiot with google can do it. Doesn't mean you are right.

    There are studies that compare men and women doing identical jobs, and there remains a clear gap in pay. In addition, it is due to sexism that women often work lower paying jobs to start with- i.e. part time jobs. This is as women are still expected to be the main caregiver in the majority of families.

    You did the exact opposite of prove your point about rape culture, yes the whole point about unreported rapes is that they are unreported- to the police. Figures on actual rape figures can be found elsewhere, for example here.

    You only served to prove my point about you being racist. There are bigots and rapists in all cultures and societies. The majority of rapes are committed by people the victims know, as you can read here, on the same page you can see that the majority of rapists are white (these figures are for the US as they were the easiest to find, but still relevant as you wish to discuss the Western world rather than the UK specifically).

    The closest point to containing any truth is in the differences between men and women- but again, it all depends on where you look.

    This is pointless. Goodbye.
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    (Original post by Nurne)
    Boo hoo, being a social justice warrior in the 21st century is so hard with people disagreeing with you. They are all such bigots aren't they. :'(


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    I'm replying with evidence in my favour in the majority of cases, and not crying about the 'big bad social justice warrior'. You're pathetic.
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    (Original post by giveupbeth)
    You're evidence is biased towards your own point of view. I have read plenty of evidence to support my own. It is easy to select evidence to support what you are claiming- any idiot with google can do it. Doesn't mean you are right.

    You did the exact opposite of prove your point about rape culture, yes the whole point about unreported rapes is that they are unreported- to the police. Figures on actual rape figures can be found elsewhere, for example here.

    You only served to prove my point about you being racist. There are bigots and rapists in all cultures and societies. The majority of rapes are committed by people the victims know, as you can read here, on the same page you can see that the majority of rapists are white (these figures are for the US as they were the easiest to find, but still relevant as you wish to discuss the Western world rather than the UK specifically).

    The closest point to containing any truth is in the differences between men and women- but again, it all depends on where you look.

    This is pointless. Goodbye.
    Which of my pieces of evidence was biased?! I thought I gave pretty reasonable sources; I mean, one of them was a Guardian article!! That's pretty damn left wing. None of them are especially right-wing or anti-feminist so far as I'm aware. And given as you didn't actually give any evidence whatsoever, it's a bit rich to then start bashing the quality of my sources, without explicitly stating which of them have such biases and for what reasons they would be so biased. Also, if you don't believe them, I'd recommend looking into the work of Christina Hoff Sommers. She's a feminist economist who has well and truly put paid to the idea of a gender pay gap.

    So you're saying that rape is pervasive and normalised in Britain, for instance? That's a ludicrous assertion; how many people have you ever come across that feel rape is acceptable? Have you got any figures at all, to suggest that rape is commonplace and considered okay in Britain? Because otherwise, that's a daft claim when everyday experiences point to the contrary.

    At no point did I say only migrants rape people. I said migrants in the West are more likely to rape than non-migrants, which is not racist. It's literally a fact. Your article (presuming I found the same one, the link didn't work properly) says that 52% of rapes in the US are committed by white people. Given as non-hispanic whites currently make up 63% of the population, that literally proves that non-hispanic whites are less likely to commit rape than those who do not belong to that demographic. So I guess I should thank you for providing evidence which supports my claim? This is a typical example of using statistical illiteracy to manufacture evidence by the way; it's pretty much the same fallacious reasoning which creates the gender pay gap amusingly.

    Evidence doesn't 'depend on where you look'; it's either valid evidence or it isn't. If you agree the evidence is valid - which your comment suggests you do - then you also agree that there are fundamental biological differences in the way the brains' of men and women work.

    Wow. That was a remarkably petulant comment. Someone presents evidence that contradicts your point of view, so you respond by first making some general comment that all the evidence is biased so you needn't consider it, and then say that the discussion is pointless and you don't wish to talk any more. I mean, it's hardly like I was being rude, I just explained why I disagree with you and provided some of the evidence which supports my claim. I thought I did so rather cordially too. Certainly, I can't see anything I said that was sufficiently incendiary to warrant such a response. Word of advice for you; don't make controversial claims if are unwilling to hear people espouse the contrary position, and have an inability to support your own claims.
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    Rape culture is a myth. The pay gap is a myth. Feminism is a joke of a movement. These are the facts.
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    (Original post by giveupbeth)
    You're pathetic.
    Feminism is pathetic, since the nineties it has been nothing but pathetic. First wave feminism gave women the vote, second wave feminism gave women equal pay. Third wave feminism has done nothing but introduce the Slutwalk (a joke of an event) since the early 1990s it has changed from something that stood for those not represented in society to a joke that lambasts a theoretical existence called the patriarchy. The fact is if a woman wants to accomplish anything in the west with enough determination she can.

    How to fix third wave feminism in my opinion.

    1) Solve the issue of pay for mothers in the west. The fact is that the majority of what the proposed 'gender pay gap' is, are mothers who are subject to wage discrimination after having children and are unable to re-enter the job market. They may even be fired during their maternity leave. Furthermore, some countries in the West still have not institutionalised maternity pay including the US (the supposed leader of the free world).

    2) Solve the issue of women's rights in the third world particularly the Middle East. Women in Saudi Arabia cannot drive, and require a male guardian to accompany them wherever they go. Essentially meaning they have no free will. They also are required to wear the niqab in public. Furthermore, Saudi Arabia has only just appointed it's first female councillors December last year.

    3) Have a governing body representing the form of feminism that feminists want put across. With so many offshoots no wonder why so many people do not understand what feminism represents. There are radical feminists such as Valerie Solanas who believes 'men have ruined the world and it's up to women to fix it' . There are also more moderate feminists such as those found on the Guardian (Gaby Hinsliff, Polly Toynbee). Just refine feminism and define what it should be which according to you, is for equal rights of men and women.






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