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    (Original post by Alexion)
    Just take a look at Eddie Izzard :yep:
    Quite a good example tbf.

    I've always thought he identified as a male but just cross dressed but i think he is genderfluid as he sais hes a woman in a mans body before...as well.
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    (Original post by Implication)
    The concept seems to amount to a way to ensure that individuals are never wrong about their gender identity by defining it to mean whatever you think of your own gender.
    I think this sort of thing arises because, in our very protected politically-correct culture, we've grown so accustomed to people very easily taking offence at certain things and become so afraid of being labeled as the "bigot" who caused the public outcry from activists on some particular issue, that we come up with ways to validate anybody's version of reality just for the sake of keeping the peace.

    Personally this whole thing puts me in a rather awkward position as I've never had an inner conception of my gender since I had no idea the concept was at all distinct from sex until last year. Nothing has magically appeared since learning that there is a distinction, yet I feel uncomfortable claiming to be gender neutral or agender or whatever.
    This sort of reminds me of the way in which, several years ago (I don't know if it's still the case), school kids would always come up with labels to categorise themselves based on what specific genre of music they liked or how they dressed (goth, punk, emo, hipster etc). It wasn't enough just to say "I like partaking in this type of thing", it would always turn into an associated identity, i.e. "I am [whatever label]".

    It seems similar with the newly defined concept of gender. One would have thought it's simple enough to accept your biological sex as fact, and just pursue your interests and behaviours as you see fit, regardless of how typical they are of other members or your sex or how much they vary over time. But for some people, it's not enough to do that. They need to have a label and a sense of identity to go with those interests and behaviours, and so they ascribe them to a sense of what they inherently are.
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    (Original post by Implication)
    I think part of the confusion here may be due to an extra layer of semantics that's mostly been skipped over in this thread. If we recognise the distinction between gender and sex, then not adhering to the social roles expected of your sex in the way you described does define you as transgender. But a further distinction is often drawn between 'gender' and 'gender identity', where the latter is essentially what you personally think of your own gender. For example, someone might argue that whether or not people think they best match the social roles of females, their sense of self is completely female and so 'female' is their gender identity, whatever their gender is.
    Just to add more confusion to it eh? :lol:

    Nah I follow you, good point.


    Personally this whole thing puts me in a rather awkward position as I've never had an inner conception of my gender since I had no idea the concept was at all distinct from sex until last year. Nothing has magically appeared since learning that there is a distinction, yet I feel uncomfortable claiming to be gender neutral or agender or whatever.
    I usually just default to my sex: I have a penis, therefore I'm a man.
    My interests and how I perceive myself fall by the wayside because I don't labour under the delusion that certain activities or career options define who I am. Some people might say that that in of itself defines me as transgender/gender fluid, but essentially it's merely holding a non-conformist attitude towards the way society perceives things gender-related.

    I don't feel any less manly whilst wearing pink fishnets... but boy do I look pretty

    NB: the above was a joke: I do not look pretty in pink fishnets, and there's photographic evidence that proves it :awesome:
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    (Original post by Drunk Punx)
    Just to add more confusion to it eh? :lol:

    Nah I follow you, good point.


    I usually just default to my sex: I have a penis, therefore I'm a man.
    My interests and how I perceive myself fall by the wayside because I don't labour under the delusion that certain activities or career options define who I am. Some people might say that that in of itself defines me as transgender/gender fluid, but essentially it's merely holding a non-conformist attitude towards the way society perceives things gender-related.

    I don't feel any less manly whilst wearing pink fishnets... but boy do I look pretty

    NB: the above was a joke: I do not look pretty in pink fishnets, and there's photographic evidence that proves it :awesome:
    Well yeah exactly! I didn't know gender and sex were different, so when somebody asked for my gender I'd give them my sex. Now when someone asks for my gender I'm just like 'uhhh what do you mean?' I don't think it's a useful label, and I think it probably fuels stereotyping and prejudice. It's divisive. An ideal society wouldn't be one in which everybody had a label that correctly described them; it would be a society that no longer had much of a use for such labels. We could be of either sex (or intersex) and be as masculine or feminine as we like without having to stick a label on it to tell the world that we don't match up to the traditional sex roles. Nobody would give a **** about 'traditional roles' and nobody would expect us to uphold them, so we wouldn't be considered 'trans' or 'unaligned' if we didn't!

    P.S. I've never worn pink fishnets but I look pretty sexy in tights. I think so anyway.
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    (Original post by monkcatcher)
    Do you think 'gender fluid' is "real"?

    Personally I think it is non-existent due to you can't be, 'Gender fluid'
    Yes.

    And your reasoning is appalling: "because I said so bascally".
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    "Genderfluid" is about as valid as being "fridgekin with pansexual tendencies"
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    I think that tbh leave people to be whatever they want to be and accept that, if it doesn't harm you.

    But having said that, I do also think some people like to jump on the gender/unorthodox sexuality/otherkin bandwagon just for the attention of being different.

    But also I think it might be a possibility that some of those who classify themselves as genderfluid/otherkin might actually have some sort of mental illness similar to body dysmorphia that results in them actually believing they are these things whilst them being a symptom of this hypothetical illness.

    Idk. As I haven't actually experienced being genderfluid/otherkin I don't really feel like I should be commenting because it's not my place to say what other people are/aren't. So just as a disclaimer I'm not trying to offend anyone. Just exploring ideas.
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    not really my position to validate the way someone lives their lives. I'm firmly rooted in my gender so whilst I can't possibly conceive of what it feels like I'm not going to try telling someone that how they feel isn't real.
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    WHAT THE--?

    NO. Male is based on chromosomes and the penis
    Female is based on chromosomes and the vagina

    Some nonsense you come across these days on the interweb I swear
    NO. Your sex is determined by your anatomy, NOT your gender. Gender is a social construct. Sociologists agree, doctors agree, psychologists agree so I can't imagine why you feel the need to blame the ~scary interweb~ for ~making things up~.

    And there's more than two sexes fyi.
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    (Original post by mgcooper1)
    NO. Your sex is determined by your anatomy, NOT your gender. Gender is a social construct. Sociologists agree, doctors agree, psychologists agree so I can't imagine why you feel the need to blame the ~scary interweb~ for ~making things up~.

    And there's more than two sexes fyi.
    I NEVER said sex is based on gender. Several posts I've made on this stupid subject I've differentiated that.
    I've always said sex is physical
    gender is identity

    Where in my post did I say anything about sex=gender?? Go through my post history, you and the person who eagerly upvoted you

    And what do you mean no that male doesn't mean penis?
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    I NEVER said sex is based on gender. Several posts I've made on this stupid subject I've differentiated that.
    I've always said sex is physical
    gender is identity

    Where in my post did I say anything about sex=gender?? Go through my post history, you and the pillock who eagerly upvoted you

    And what do you mean no that male doesn't mean penis?
    if you've differentiated before why are you still implying that gender is determined by biology???

    and im definitely not going through your post history the ignorance alone would probably make me lose ten years of my life.

    you said that men have penises and women have vaginas. while that is certainly true for some men and women, it is definitely not true for all.
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    (Original post by mgcooper1)
    if you've differentiated before why are you still implying that gender is determined by biology???

    and im definitely not going through your post history the ignorance alone would probably make me lose ten years of my life.

    you said that men have penises and women have vaginas. while that is certainly true for some men and women, it is definitely not true for all.
    I hate when people on the internet say someone is "implying." All you have to go on are the words I have typed. It's as hard to detect implication on the net as it is sarcasm. Anyway

    Ok an insult well done, moving on.

    Yes male is based on chromosomes and penis, I'm also not the only person who has said this common scientific fact. I was on about identifying sex not gender anyway and there are only two sexes as far as academic fact, everything else is theory. And yes the internet makes crap up because someone makes a blog and if it gets enough "likes" suddenly some people start to believe it and indignantly parrot it in anyone's face who disagrees...kinda like what you're doing.
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    I NEVER said sex is based on gender. Several posts I've made on this stupid subject I've differentiated that.
    I've always said sex is physical
    gender is identity

    Where in my post did I say anything about sex=gender?? Go through my post history, you and the pillock who eagerly upvoted you

    And what do you mean no that male doesn't mean penis?
    I am that pillock. I haven't gone through your entire post history but I did go back through the relevant conversation. Somebody argued that 'male' and 'female' tend to refer to the social construct of gender, and you disagreed (in capitals), claiming that 'male' and 'female' is determined by chromosomes and genitals (i.e. that they refer to assigned sex). While it's certainly true of sex, it's also true of gender - which you seemed to disagree with, referring to it as 'nonsense' from 'the interweb'. I upvoted mgcooper1 for correctly correcting you.
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    This some tumblr ****
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    yeah i think it's real as no one would lie about it because that would be stupid.
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    (Original post by Implication)
    I am that pillock. I haven't gone through your entire post history but I did go back through the relevant conversation. Somebody argued that 'male' and 'female' tend to refer to the social construct of gender, and you disagreed (in capitals), claiming that 'male' and 'female' is determined by chromosomes and genitals (i.e. that they refer to assigned sex). While it's certainly true of sex, it's also true of gender - which you seemed to disagree with, referring to it as 'nonsense' from 'the interweb'. I upvoted mgcooper1 for correctly correcting you.
    I'll have to go back and look at who you say I quoted. Anyway yes you're playing semantics nitpicking the academic difference between male and female because you've more of a social media perspective towards it, hence why you're "quoting" male and female, like they don't exist now lol Just because people who have penis or vagina or both (I draw the line there at acknowledging any other sexes) say they aren't the gender that traditionally comes with male and female, it doesn't mean male and female as sexes no longer mean different things and are assigned in incorrect ways. You are, sex wise, male if you've got the chromosomes XY and a penis, come on now this is primary school stuff. That's never gonna change which is why sex and gender have been distinguished and I always always do that but I've never confused or trivialised the two.
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    (Original post by 0to100)
    I hate when people on the internet say someone is "implying." All you have to go on are the words I have typed. It's as hard to detect implication on the net as it is sarcasm. Anyway

    Ok an insult well done, moving on.

    Yes male is based on chromosomes and penis, I'm also not the only person who has said this common scientific fact. I was on about identifying sex not gender anyway and there are only two sexes as far as academic fact, everything else is theory. And yes the internet makes crap up because someone makes a blog and if it gets enough "likes" suddenly some people start to believe it and indignantly parrot it in anyone's face who disagrees...kinda like what you're doing.
    no,, you implied it semantically and i understood it how you implied it. don't put your mistakes on me? and maybe a discussion about non-binary people isnt the right place for sarcasm? its incredibly tasteless

    saying the words 'its an academic fact' doesn't actually make what you're saying true though because according to you, intersex people no longer exist. i guess that all intersex people are actually just figments of our imagination?

    and as far your annoyance at the internet making stuff up, have you considered that literally everything is made up and everything was a new thing at some point, and that's how society develops? people didn't start making stuff up just because the internet was invented; humans have literally been making things up for hundreds of thousands of years.

    if you dont want people to disgree with you then dont troll people online and get all defensive after you've tried invalidating entire groups of people. if you don't consider yourself to be gender-fluid then who are you to say that other people can't identify with that label when it has absolutely no affect on your life.
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    It's all in the nurture not nature
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    (Original post by mgcooper1)
    no,, you implied it semantically and i understood it how you implied it. don't put your mistakes on me? and maybe a discussion about non-binary people isnt the right place for sarcasm? its incredibly tasteless

    saying the words 'its an academic fact' doesn't actually make what you're saying true though because according to you, intersex people no longer exist. i guess that all intersex people are actually just figments of our imagination?

    and as far your annoyance at the internet making stuff up, have you considered that literally everything is made up and everything was a new thing at some point, and that's how society develops? people didn't start making stuff up just because the internet was invented; humans have literally been making things up for hundreds of thousands of years.

    if you dont want people to disgree with you then dont troll people online and get all defensive after you've tried invalidating entire groups of people. if you don't consider yourself to be gender-fluid then who are you to say that other people can't identify with that label when it has absolutely no affect on your life.
    (Sigh ok what's this now?)

    Where did I make a mistake? Because you disagree it needs to be berated as a mistake?

    I never said anything about me being sarcastic, I said accusing someone of implying something is as ridiculous as someone claiming sarcasm, as both are hard to detect online. No idea how you missed that. I literally said those words.

    I never anything about intersex. I am on about male and female. I never said, "I'm talking about male and female and once I finish no one else matters or exists." I only mentioned them because I was on about them. I even just mentioned having both to your friend Implication so calm down and again read up before you have a go just because you disagree. So it's rich you're accusing me of not "wanting" to be disagreed with when you're the one who selected my post out from days ago.

    So far we're arguing my opinion presented by yes academic fact not tumblr theories. Instead of arguing the facts. Annoying.

    Summary: male is based on XY chromosome, female is based on XX chromosome, giving the man a penis and the female a vagina. Not including any other sex you want to add in for an argument. End of. Nothing else you said was worthy, tara.
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    No.

    (Original post by EllaWelly)
    this is going to sound clicheé but clicheé's are there to state the obvious:

    just because you haven't experienced something, doesn't mean it's not real. It's not like everyone thinks the same as you and if they don't then they MUST BE FAKING IT. If someone feels gender fluid, why assume they are lying? Let them be gender fluid and respect it.
    Personal experience or suppositions thereof is not evidence nor does it inherently justify the position. I could claim I'm actually a messenger of god and have visited heaven, its full of the wealthy and the true lord is a massive classist called Dave. I have experienced that but you cannot say its wrong because you havent. This is religious level dogma in action, just have 'faith' in experiential reality. Given such anecdotal evidence taught us throughout history the world was flat, if a black dog howls or a black cat crosses your path you're cursed, witches are real and we should set them on fire etc etc. There was a reason for the emergence of empricism and scientifically valid fact, particularly as we can misconstrue reality even from experiencing it collectively ie a child doesnt understand the reality of many things despite experiencing them.

    There is no exact science of gender but there are reference points. It is known sex influences gender. Those with the male sex and having the most male hormones are most comfortable as male, those who are androgynous or are more feminine with male as their sex tend to be bisexual or gay and most often have gender changes. This excludes the brain and biological sex not matching as its fair to assume the massive amounts of opposite sex hormones self predicate the conclusion in such instances. We can assume then that gender is governed by levels of hormones (as the same pattern is true of women). The trend exhibits gender is related to sex and hormonal activity, both fixed constants (relatively speaking). Thus gender fluidity would require constant changes in the hormonal states or brain structures which is not biologically possible. In reality it is a reflection of people feeling uncomfortable with their gender stereotypes and not coming to terms with nobody matches every stereotype and nobody should try to.

    People may label themselves whatever they wish, but they are not entitled to assume a valid science behind calling themselves something because they 'feel' it.
 
 
 
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