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    (Original post by harun_farah)
    It's all about belief in the unseen, God exists weather you believe it or not. And the whole thing to do with no evidence is to do with having belief. if there was evidence everybody on the face of the earth would be as good as gold and be obedient to god.however the fact that there is no evidence the god exists is part of his plan to test his creation.


    I'll give an example when your going down the highway with your car,van,truck whatever you might drive, you hear on the radio, such and such road is blocked due to a crash and you take his word for it and divert from that road you don't ensist on evidence, its belief in the unseen and you wouldn't think why.? Because the man on the radio has no reason to lie.

    To me that's these the idea of God he is there to be believed in not to be asked for evidence, God never gave evidence of himself so he can differentiate the believers from people who disbelieve.
    Preach, them AS Edexcel Philosophy and Ethics knowledge right there.
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    (Original post by Defraction)
    There is evidence- look around you. Is it not a sheer fact that a tree has been designed, everything in nature has a purpose and this purpose couldn't have happened by chance. As the famous saying states: "Everything happens for a reason"- a reason that only a divine, transcendent being knows. We, as human beings, are too ignorant and selfish to actually know what the reason is. We see things in black and white, and evidently assume that the world is a continuous.

    So, when we die, do you think we just die and that's it. Don't you think that the existence of evil and suffering, both moral and natural evil, and the fact that we have free will show that there must be a hidden reason for so. Why would we have free will if all of us were going to die and that's it. Surely, free will is a 'test'.
    Why would we have free will and we have the freedom to kill anyone we like as well as natural disasters killing us freely if life is not a test.

    Evidently, you disregarding a divine being is slightly stupid to be honest. It's obvious a divine being is evident as how can we explain the sheer beauty of the world if there is no God. Obviously, we have different conceptions of a 'God' and you would probably assume God would exist if there was no evil and suffering but evil and suffering is a test, an evident obstacle.

    Let's say the world was all perfect (and dull) as evil and suffering doesn't exist. How will we develop our qualities? A person withdrawing an obstacle of life(evil and suffering) will help them develop those necessary qualities. But, of course, we have different definitions of evil and suffering as an individual.

    God does exist but His nature is ultimately up to you and how you think he is to be.
    I'd like to counter your argument even though it wasn't directed at me. Hopefully davidguettafan doesn't mind.

    Yes, I tree has been designed; by many years of trial and error. It didn't happen by chance per say, more by trial and error, and experimentation of different structures over the course of millennia until some structures faded while the ones we see today stayed.

    Also, I don't understand how you can transfer a cliche into the concept of the existence of a deity. Its a human construct, to console people of the simple fact anything can happen, and its out of our control. Does not in any way point to a deity.

    Yes, I do think that when we die that's it. To the best of my knowledge there doesn't seem to be anything past that. Its the definition of death. Humans are probably the only species that have evolved enough intelligence to be afraid of such a concept, and therefore create the idea of an afterlife to once again console themselves. To create a purpose because they cannot fathom the notion of their lives being meaningless relative to the entirety of space and time.

    And I'm can't understand at all your inference of a deity and free will being a test from the existence of 'good' and 'evil'. Why would we have free will and natural disasters if it isn't a test? I don't understand the relation between the two at all, you've lost me there completely.

    I think the main reason for your belief is that you cannot grapple with the reality of nature (free will, death, universal grandeur), so you apply a deity and afterlife to the issue to avoid facing the issue. That way you can rest assured that there will be a reckoning for evil, and you'll continue to live on even after you die; eliminating any fear of death.
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    (Original post by Defraction)
    Preach, them AS Edexcel Philosophy and Ethics knowledge right there.
    I'm currently a gcse student😇😇
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    (Original post by harun_farah)
    It's all about belief in the unseen, God exists weather you believe it or not. And the whole thing to do with no evidence is to do with having belief. if there was evidence everybody on the face of the earth would be as good as gold and be obedient to god.however the fact that there is no evidence the god exists is part of his plan to test his creation.


    I'll give an example when your going down the highway with your car,van,truck whatever you might drive, you hear on the radio, such and such road is blocked due to a crash and you take his word for it and divert from that road you don't ensist on evidence, its belief in the unseen and you wouldn't think why.? Because the man on the radio has no reason to lie.

    To me that's these the idea of God he is there to be believed in not to be asked for evidence, God never gave evidence of himself so he can differentiate the believers from people who disbelieve.
    That's called entrapment. Are you insinuating that the creator and controller of the universe in its entirety is like the Jigsaw killer from Saw?
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    The existence of God is indicated by the fact that the inorganic universe contains every ingredient needed to make organic life possible. The world exists as an arena for life, and the probability that this is entirely due to chance is infinitesimally small. The essence of the argument is that mathematically the more complex an ordered structure, the less the probability of its structure being due to chance. The chemistry of life is by far the most complex process in our experience, and yet we find that the inorganic matter of the universe can support this process. Since there is only one type of matter in the universe, the chances of its having all the chemical and physical properties needed to support life are remotely small, unless we take into account a purposeful creator.
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    (Original post by BristolFresher15)
    I'd like to counter your argument even though it wasn't directed to me. Hopefully davidguettafan doesn't mind.

    Yes, I tree has been designed; by many years of trial and error. It didn't happen by chance per say, more by trial and error, and experimentation of different structures over the course of millennia until some structures faded while the ones we see today stayed.

    Also, I don't understand how you can transfer a cliche into the concept of the existence of a deity. Its a human construct, to console people of the simple fact anything can happen, and its out of our control. Does not in any way point to a deity.

    Yes, I do think that when we die that's it. To the best of my knowledge there doesn't seem to be anything past that. Its the definition of death. Humans are probably the only species that have evolved enough intelligence to be afraid of such a concept, and therefore create the idea of an afterlife to once again console themselves. To create a purpose because they cannot fathom the notion of their lives being meaningless relative to the entirety of space and time.

    And I'm can't understand at all your inference of a deity and free will being a test from the existence of 'good' and 'evil'. Why would we have free will and natural disasters if it isn't a test? I don't understand the relation between the two at all, you've lost me there completely.

    I think the main reason for your belief is that you cannot grapple with the reality of nature (free will, death, universal grandeur), so you apply a deity and afterlife to the issue to avoid facing the issue. That way you can rest assured that there will be a reckoning for evil, and you'll continue to live on even after you die; eliminating any fear of death.
    Hmm, I see David Hume has influenced your point of thinking

    Firstly, even though David Hume, to some extent does not think God is the explanation for the world, he still argues that there is a designer of the world and that designer is very powerful and highly intelligent, but need not be God. The obvious thing here is that David Hume still think there is a someone, who he calls a designer, is behind the obvious creation of the world. In my opinion, God is just a definition of what people hold of the divine, purposeful intelligent transcendent being that must be a centre point of every single individual's life.

    Secondly, you haven't encountered death so you can't just assume that when you die that's it. Plus, the major thing all Abrahamic religions have in common is the creation of the universe and the afterlife. Islam, Judaism, Christianity and so forth all believe that we are tested by God. The Quran states: "Do you think they will be left to say 'We believe' without being put to the test(29:2). In Christianity, God showed his benevolence to His creation by sending his son, Jesus to save the believers and die for our sins. In Judaism, they argue if humans weren't given free will- the ability to choose what you want to do- then the actions will hold no religious or moral significance. For e.g. a rapist that rapes people because they are compelled to do so will be no different to a good person who gives charity because they are compelled to do so. Therefore, the fact that we have free will clearly shows why we die. We die because it's the end of our free-will orientated life and we will be tested, when it is the end of the world, by God on our actions and intentions.

    Lastly, unfortunately I don't place a cliché onto a deity. My concept of a divine being is completely different from yours. We are different people, who think differently, my life is different from yours as well as my thought of thinking. There are some things, for me personally, that doesn't need an explanation. So, let's say you are a homeless person and that you are materally deprived. You have suicidal thoughts and do not understand why your life is so bad. So, you decide to go and buy a lottery ticket then you won the lottery thus giving you £1 billion pounds. You end up getting a phone call from an interview you went last week and you got the job. Your sick mum recovers and is back on her feet. So, don't you think that everything that happened must have a purpose. It could've have happened by chance as there was a continuous amount of good things that happened. The most sufficient reason for this is God. God simply in words is a purposeful designer and divine being behind the creation of the world.

    I don't deem that you disregard you not believing in God but look at everywhere around you, there must be a designer behind it all. Sometimes, people shouldn't assume that they need to see proof in front of them but accept some things as they are. Like when some parents tell us not to go out at night and we decide to go out and you get mugged- then you realise you should've listened to your parents. The same applies to the existence of God.


    I hope I won!!!
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    (Original post by harun_farah)
    I'm currently a gcse student😇😇
    Year 10 or 11?????? I loved GCSE RE - I did Edexcel- it was bare sick
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    11 I'm doing Orc b exam board
    HBO what level u studying at a level uni?.
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    (Original post by harun_farah)
    11 I'm doing Orc b exam board
    HBO what level u studying at a level uni?.
    AS Level- first year of sixth form, a level

    Edexcel- Philosophy and Ethics

    I don't know whether or not to drop it
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    (Original post by Defraction)
    There is evidence- look around you. Is it not a sheer fact that a tree has been designed, everything in nature has a purpose and this purpose couldn't have happened by chance. As the famous saying states: "Everything happens for a reason"- a reason that only a divine, transcendent being knows. We, as human beings, are too ignorant and selfish to actually know what the reason is. We see things in black and white, and evidently assume that the world is continuous process
    I understand why you don't like the idea that everything came about by chance, but it's the only explanation that works. If there is a God that designed everything, who designed the designer? If you suggest that he just came into existance or has always been, then that is an even bigger logical problem. As Dr Richard Dawkins so eloquently explains in 'The God Delusion' the improbability of a designer complex enough to design the universe is even greater than the universe happening by chance. It's been a while since I read his great book, but if I remember correctly he likens to process of gradual evolution to climbing a mountain. I assume you, like any religious person with some intelligence, believe in evolution but just think it's driven by some sort of god? If you don't actually believe in evolution, then, well... hmm. You're simply wrong. I can 100% justify evolution in all ways and I would love to persuade you that evolution is a fact.

    Speaking of 'The God Delusion' by Dawkins, I would actually really, really, REALLY like to have a conversation with any theist who has read and understood the book, and still believes in some sort of god.

    I would also like to say that I look around and see all of the absolutely terrible designs in nature. Here is a perfect example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO1a...hannel=Laeskig

    (Original post by Defraction)

    So, when we die, do you think we just die and that's it. Don't you think that the existence of evil and suffering, both moral and natural evil, and the fact that we have free will show that there must be a hidden reason for so. Why would we have free will if all of us were going to die and that's it. Surely, free will is a 'test'.
    Why would we have free will and we have the freedom to kill anyone we like as well as natural disasters killing us freely if life is not a test.

    Evidently, you disregarding a divine being is slightly stupid to be honest. It's obvious a divine being is evident as how can we explain the sheer beauty of the world if there is no God. Obviously, we have different conceptions of a 'God' and you would probably assume God would exist if there was no evil and suffering but evil and suffering is a test, an evident obstacle.

    Let's say the world was all perfect (and dull) as evil and suffering doesn't exist. How will we develop our qualities? A person withdrawing an obstacle of life(evil and suffering) will help them develop those necessary qualities. But, of course, we have different definitions of evil and suffering as an individual.

    God does exist but His nature is ultimately up to you and how you think he is to be.
    "how can we explain the sheer beauty of the world if there is no God" One word. Evolution. Also, the world is a horrific place.

    Yes, I do think that when we die that's it.
    This concept of life being a test is very odd to me. If God is an omnipotent being, then I assume he knows everything. If he does indeed know everything, why does he need to test us? The point of a test is to find out something you don't know about someone.
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    (Original post by Defraction)
    AS Level- first year of sixth form, a level

    Edexcel- Philosophy and Ethics

    I don't know whether or not to drop it
    What are your other as subjects
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    (Original post by JM999)
    The existence of God is indicated by the fact that the inorganic universe contains every ingredient needed to make organic life possible. The world exists as an arena for life, and the probability that this is entirely due to chance is infinitesimally small. The essence of the argument is that mathematically the more complex an ordered structure, the less the probability of its structure being due to chance. The chemistry of life is by far the most complex process in our experience, and yet we find that the inorganic matter of the universe can support this process. Since there is only one type of matter in the universe, the chances of its having all the chemical and physical properties needed to support life are remotely small, unless we take into account a purposeful creator.
    And the probability that a being that is complex enough to design that just came into existence is infinitesimally smaller.
    More details in 'The God Delusion' by Dr Richard Dawkins.
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    (Original post by harun_farah)
    It's all about belief in the unseen, God exists weather you believe it or not. And the whole thing to do with no evidence is to do with having belief. if there was evidence everybody on the face of the earth would be as good as gold and be obedient to god.however the fact that there is no evidence the god exists is part of his plan to test his creation.
    .
    Belief in something that you cannot justify, or explain, or give evidence for is the sign of either a liar or a moron. That may be a quotation from somewhere, but if it is I can't remember who from.

    (Original post by harun_farah)
    I'll give an example when your going down the highway with your car,van,truck whatever you might drive, you hear on the radio, such and such road is blocked due to a crash and you take his word for it and divert from that road you don't ensist on evidence, its belief in the unseen and you wouldn't think why.? Because the man on the radio has no reason to lie.
    There is a difference, I have seen blocked roads before, I understand how a blocked road works, it is not very unlikely. However with the existence of God, I would need some evidence. I'm not even going to ask for good evidence, ANY evidence will do.

    (Original post by harun_farah)
    To me that's these the idea of God he is there to be believed in not to be asked for evidence, God never gave evidence of himself so he can differentiate the believers from people who disbelieve
    Hypothetically speaking that there is a God, why would he value idiots who believe in something when there is no evidence. Surely he would value the intelligent people who question ridiculous assertions and ask for evidence on something.
    And my point in my other post, if he is omnipotent, surely he just knows which people believe and which disbelieve, if needs to test them then he therefore is not all powerful.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    I can't speak for everyone but some people say they feel his presence whenever they're at a place of worship or through prayer.
    And do those people not worry that they may just be imagining it? Probably because they have been so heavily indoctrinated to believe in their god and that if they think god is real they start imagining its effects. Sort of like a placebo.
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    (Original post by TheBirder)
    And do those people not worry that they may just be imagining it? Probably because they have been so heavily indoctrinated to believe in their god and that if they think god is real they start imagining its effects. Sort of like a placebo.
    Perhaps, but that is their right. They're not harming anyone by believing.
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Perhaps, but that is their right. They're not harming anyone by believing.
    This is going to start a war on islam.... I'd rephrase....
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    Yes, I don't know how anyone can look at the universe and not believe in intelligent design
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    (Original post by cherryred90s)
    Perhaps, but that is their right. They're not harming anyone by believing.
    And I absolutely agree with you there. If they are not harming anyone by believing in something then I support them doing so.

    "We've all got imaginary friends, I've just grown out of mine... but I'll let them believe any fairy tale they like, God love you." - Jimmy Carr.
    This absolutely sums up my thoughts.
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    (Original post by ameehannah)
    Yes, I don't know how anyone can look at the universe and not believe in intelligent design
    Conversely, I don't know how anyone can look at the universe and believe in intelligent design.

    That's the question I'm asking.
 
 
 
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