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What the moderate muslim thinks (WORLDWIDE survey) watch

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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    You have completely misinterpreted what I have said and there are majority-muslim states I could live in.
    How have I misinterpreted what you said, weren't you contrasting Islam with Christianity, saying both call for the death of homosexuals ?

    And which Muslim countries can you live in and be openly gay and free ?
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    (Original post by HanSoloLuck)
    How have I misinterpreted what you said, weren't you contrasting Islam with Christianity, saying both call for the death of homosexuals ?

    And which Muslim countries can you live in and be openly gay and free ?
    No, not really and definitely not as bluntly as that.

    Note, I said majority-muslim. One example is Albania. Turkey also has a large Muslim population.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    Hang on, you are still not gettingb my distinction. Respect the people; I disagree with most Islamic concepts. I don't like nor respect the code myself. I respect another's right to believe it, though.
    Yes but do you respect a person who holds abhorrent beliefs? (Not talking about Islam or Muslims here) Just in general, a person who holds contemptible beliefs isnt really deserving of respect right?
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Yes but do you respect a person who holds abhorrent beliefs? (Not talking about Islam or Muslims here) Just in general, a person who holds contemptible beliefs isnt really deserving of respect right?
    It depends on what those beliefs are. I don't think believing in Islam fits that description.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    It depends on what those beliefs are. I don't think believing in Islam fits that description.
    Nor do I necessarily ...
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    (Original post by HanSoloLuck)
    How have I misinterpreted what you said, weren't you contrasting Islam with Christianity, saying both call for the death of homosexuals ?

    And which Muslim countries can you live in and be openly gay and free ?
    Indonesia.
    Most populous muslim country in the world.
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    (Original post by IAmYourdog)
    Indonesia.
    Most populous muslim country in the world.
    Homosexuality is a criminal offense in Aceh which can result in one receiving a public whipping. So it would depend where in the country you are. Also, there has been in recent months a growth in anti-LGBT propaganda being pushed by Salafi groups and supported by some prominent members of the government who want to get homosexuality banned. So I'd be a bit cautious saying Indonesia. It has potential,but it all depends on whether a strong enough resistance can be mounted by more liberal groups against the more conservative groups.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Homosexuality is a criminal offense in Aceh which can result in one receiving a public whipping. So it would depend where in the country you are. Also, there has been in recent months a growth in anti-LGBT propaganda being pushed by Salafi groups and supported by some prominent members of the government who want to get homosexuality banned. So I'd be a bit cautious saying Indonesia.
    No it depends on where you are...
    I have friends in Indonesia who are openly homosexual and they have no problems.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold up one second here.
    Don't want to be that guy but you did cherry pick a little there, the Bible, even in the NT, is clear enough on the ultimate fate of any practicing homosexual.

    Corinth 6:9-10: 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Now it does say people who commit these sins can be cleansed, however it clearly relates to them leaving such sin behind. Any practicing homosexual who isn't going to give up a sexual relationship isn't getting past those pearly gates.

    Then there's Pauls huge rant about the variety of sinful people in Romans, where as part of it he mentions the sinful actions of Polytheists including..

    "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

    So he's clearly not particularly keen on homosexual relations, which are of course in his list of actions (including disrespecting parents, greed, malice etc) which....

    "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

    Which would suggest Paul is reminding us that the Old testament is not in fact outdated, since it makes up half of your Scripture and has the words of your God, where in Leviticus he clearly says anyone practicing homosexuality should be killed.

    I appreciate Jesus coming may have changed some things, albeit Jesus himself did say he had not come to change his fathers laws, but how can you discount the words of God himself in the OT? Unless God changes his mind, which is odd for an eternal perfect being. Also the sticky issue of the ten commandments being introduced in the OT...that half of the book does contain some useful stuff.

    Obviously I think people who pick the peaceful loving verses are great, but it doesn't change the fact that if you took the decrees of YHWH himself at face value, you'd be hard pressed to allow homosexuality to be legal, even if you did decide the death penalty was overly severe and it was better to let God decide life/death.
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    (Original post by ivybridge)
    No, not really and definitely not as bluntly as that.

    Note, I said majority-muslim. One example is Albania. Turkey also has a large Muslim population.
    Haven't looked up Albania, but here's what 5 mins of goggling got me on Turkey.

    "The Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights urged authorities to tackle the spate of violence, and to curb discrimination.“In the past two weeks alone, reported incidents include the appearance of posters in Ankara encouraging the murder of LGBT people; a violent homophobic attack against a group of young gay men in Istanbul; as well as rape, assault and robbery against Kemal Ördek, a human rights defender and founder of the Red Umbrella Sexual Health and Human Rights Association,” OHCHR spokesperson Rupert Colville told reporters in Geneva, Switzerland.Colville went on to say that the Office is “further concerned about allegations that in the last case, police officers trivialised the attack, used discriminatory language, tried to dissuade the victim from filing a complaint, and did not provide protection from additional threats by the alleged perpetrators.”He also noted the case of police using unwarranted force to tackle peaceful demonstrators at Istanbul Pride."It's blatantly obvious this is not a safe place to be openly homosexual, you are talking out of your rear end.
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    Don't want to be that guy but you did cherry pick a little there, the Bible, even in the NT, is clear enough on the ultimate fate of any practicing homosexual.

    Corinth 6:9-10: 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Now it does say people who commit these sins can be cleansed, however it clearly relates to them leaving such sin behind. Any practicing homosexual who isn't going to give up a sexual relationship isn't getting past those pearly gates.

    Then there's Pauls huge rant about the variety of sinful people in Romans, where as part of it he mentions the sinful actions of Polytheists including..

    "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

    So he's clearly not particularly keen on homosexual relations, which are of course in his list of actions (including disrespecting parents, greed, malice etc) which....

    "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

    Which would suggest Paul is reminding us that the Old testament is not in fact outdated, since it makes up half of your Scripture and has the words of your God, where in Leviticus he clearly says anyone practicing homosexuality should be killed.

    I appreciate Jesus coming may have changed some things, albeit Jesus himself did say he had not come to change his fathers laws, but how can you discount the words of God himself in the OT? Unless God changes his mind, which is odd for an eternal perfect being. Also the sticky issue of the ten commandments being introduced in the OT...that half of the book does contain some useful stuff.

    Obviously I think people who pick the peaceful loving verses are great, but it doesn't change the fact that if you took the decrees of YHWH himself at face value, you'd be hard pressed to allow homosexuality to be legal, even if you did decide the death penalty was overly severe and it was better to let God decide life/death.
    You think you know better than the Pope or the Queen about Christianity?

    By matter of fact, their interpretation and order of import for contradictory passages trumps everyone else's. They say not to kill or attack homosexuals, it's really not a matter for debate.
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    (Original post by Erebor)
    Every single person in the West should see this survey, it should be shown in the media and discussed in schools. Then and only then we can have a realistic discussion about islam. The monsters blowing themselves up across the world are a mere symptom of a much greater, deeper issue.

    First impressions :

    - SE Europe and Central Asia are the most tolerant, as expected (even though the numbers are still pretty high)
    - South Asia is horrific (76% want apostates executed )
    - ME/NA not as bad as SA but still terrifying
    - ''gays are sinners'', ''woman must obey husband'' are pretty much universal
    - unreal support for ''honour killings'' in many countries

    TLDR :




    http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/t...iety-overview/







    I've seen these types of posts once to many. Dude, sit down, and stfu. Your exams are next week, could you try not to get a D, and could you try not to disappoint your parents again? Spending your time studying may get you the grade, posting bs on TSR won't.
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    (Original post by IAmYourdog)
    No it depends on where you are...
    I have friends in Indonesia who are openly homosexual and they have no problems.
    "I have friends who deal drugs here in the UK and they have no problems"
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    (Original post by joey11223)
    Don't want to be that guy but you did cherry pick a little there, the Bible, even in the NT, is clear enough on the ultimate fate of any practicing homosexual.

    Corinth 6:9-10: 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

    Now it does say people who commit these sins can be cleansed, however it clearly relates to them leaving such sin behind. Any practicing homosexual who isn't going to give up a sexual relationship isn't getting past those pearly gates.

    Then there's Pauls huge rant about the variety of sinful people in Romans, where as part of it he mentions the sinful actions of Polytheists including..

    "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

    So he's clearly not particularly keen on homosexual relations, which are of course in his list of actions (including disrespecting parents, greed, malice etc) which....

    "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

    Which would suggest Paul is reminding us that the Old testament is not in fact outdated, since it makes up half of your Scripture and has the words of your God, where in Leviticus he clearly says anyone practicing homosexuality should be killed.

    I appreciate Jesus coming may have changed some things, albeit Jesus himself did say he had not come to change his fathers laws, but how can you discount the words of God himself in the OT? Unless God changes his mind, which is odd for an eternal perfect being. Also the sticky issue of the ten commandments being introduced in the OT...that half of the book does contain some useful stuff.
    Please see the list of quotes from the NT I replied to Ivybridge concerning the fact that the law has been replaced and fulfilled. This is undisputable doctrine.

    A sinner needs to stop sinning but first he needs to believe in Jesus and receive Him into their hearts because only the Holy Spirit gives a man strength to live a life pleasing to God. The NT is very clear that without the intervention of God all men are slaves to sin and Satan

    Why just pick on practising homosexuals when even from that verse you quoted it mentions idolators, adulterers, thieves and the greedy? In Revelations it mentions liars being amongst those who also go to the lake of fire.

    My point is that God considers all sin as deserving death hence why it says in the NT ''the wages of sin is death.'' It does not say ''the wages of just homosexuality is death.''
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    I'm a ****ing idiot and this whole forum knows it
    I know :/ .
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    (Original post by IAmYourdog)
    I know :/ .
    Ahh I love schooling kids

    So angry, so salty. Must be the hormones
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    (Original post by Angry Bird)
    yh they got the opinion of 1 billion muslims yeah right LMAO!
    There are only like 1.3 billion Muslims in the world and I guarantee if I show this to anyone in our city who is a Muslim, they will never have even seen this.

    My sweet patootee they got the opinion of 1 billion.

    To be honest, I can go and make that exact same set of results on Microsoft. I can make one for 1.3 billion Christians agreeing that they are racist and there is no other reason for their hatred towards Muslims. Doesn't mean it's true.
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    (Original post by Erebor)
    If the West wanted to do that? You realize that's a moral issue, not a technical one?
    What do you mean by this? If the west wanted to kill all the Muslims? Is that your way of getting rid of Islam?
    Nice to know how the west feel about freedom of religion.
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    (Original post by IAmYourdog)
    No it depends on where you are...
    I have friends in Indonesia who are openly homosexual and they have no problems.
    You originally made no comment about provinces and just stated the country as a whole, which is incorrect.

    Anyway, the recent growth in influence of the anti-LGBT movement isn't a matter restricted to just a specific region, it is a national issue. Aside from a few outliers like Ahok, quite a number of prominent members in leadership such as Jusuf Kalla who is the vice president of Indonesia who voiced his intolerance towards LGBT issues. People in government have the ability to bring about changes in laws that will effect the whole country, and that is the issue.

    Nowhere did I say people can't be openly gay in Indonesia, but I said one should be cautious, as you are misreporting what is a serious issue. By misrepresenting the facts, you are doing a disservice for LGBT individuals in Indonesia. For example, look at this poll taken on the most popular discussion forum in Indonesia among young people.

    http://www.kaskus.co.id/post/56c3c1e...7798fa5e8b456a

    The person says "Singapore has anti-gay laws, should Indonesia follow suit?" 88% of people voted yes on the poll. One of the comments says:

    Perlu banget tuh undang undang anti gay
    Persetanlah dengan dalih HAM untuk melindungi atau melegalkan penyakit penyimpangan mereka.
    We definitely need anti-gay laws
    To hell with their fake human rights to protect and legalise their illness
    We should be raising awareness and support, not pretending there is no problem.
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    (Original post by Mona-S)
    What do you mean by this? If the west wanted to kill all the Muslims? Is that your way of getting rid of Islam?
    Nice to know how the west feel about freedom of religion.
    I think he means mass exterminating all muslims, just like how hitler killed 6 million jews.
 
 
 
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