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    (Original post by Davij038)
    See my other posts (no, but they all seem)
    ok phew

    regardless europhobes are dead set on what they believe, no point arguing anymore.
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    (Original post by IamJacksContempt)
    Vote to stay in.

    Because those who are voting out appear to be genuinely stupid.
    There are some very intelligent (if wrong) brexiters but I think thankfully the majority of brexiters terrify the living daylights out of the average voter, eg look on any given media comment section.


    These are people who, for real, think the EU has ruined their lives and is the fourth reich.


    Brexit has become a religion for these people.
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    (Original post by Keyhofi)
    More access to jobs. Not more jobs. Sure, there are many jobs linked to the EU, and sure there will be sudden and sustained unemployment in the immediate time after leaving, but things would stabilise again in the long run (I honestly think a few years would be sufficient). The only difference is that it would be harder to access the wide range of jobs out there in foreign countries if we left.
    Pardon my incorrect quotation of what you said (not meant to be sarcastic!) - I realised what I was typing sounded weird but went with it anyway.

    With regard to 'sudden and sustained unemployment in the immediate time after leaving', how can you be so sure? :confused:There will be a time of uncertainty after the referendum whether we decide to stay or not, and as you say 'things would stabilise again in the long run', so why should we stay since you seem to be suggesting that in a few years everything will have evened itself out if we were to leave? Furthermore, what would make it more difficult to access jobs in foreign countries (I assume you are referring to European countries in particular) if we left the EU?
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    I'm sorry that I won't respond to you again tonight since I'm going to bed, but we might continue this discussion some other time?!? Goodnight
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    (Original post by IamJacksContempt)
    Vote to stay in.



    Because those who are voting out appear to be genuinely stupid.
    Please give your reasoning if you are going to make such a statement.

    It is also rather rude (and bold) of you to call Brexit supporters 'genuinely stupid' - I disagree with those who want to remain part of the EU, but I certainly wouldn't be rude to or about them!
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    But enough about the USA, and enough about the dry, banal topic of economy.
    I'm always happy to stop talking about the economic arguments but you lot keep forgetting that you've lost the economic argument

    This country is not simply a business. We're in the great game that is statehood - letting ourselves being governed by a foreign government
    That is disingenuous. We are at most part ruled by a pan European council as is the rest of the EU.

    and absorbed slowly until we're about as important as a small US state is just giving up and refusing to play the game because oh, it's so awfully hard.
    States should serve the interests of the people and not the other way around in my opinion.

    States were necessary in the Middle Ages but times have moved on- the idea of sovereignty in an era of climate change and global capitalism is laughable- if it wasn't peddled by tax exile media barons
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    11. And freedom to die...alone. Amen...

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    (Original post by Banana00)
    Please give your reasoning if you are going to make such a statement.

    It is also rather rude (and bold) of you to call Brexit supporters 'genuinely stupid' - I disagree with those who want to remain part of the EU, but I certainly wouldn't be rude to or about them!
    There are some very intelligent (if wrong IMHO) brexiters eg Dan Hannan.

    You're in a monoritu. Most brexiters regard INers as at best brainwashed and at worst Vichy style collaborators.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    There are some very intelligent (if wrong) brexiters but I think thankfully the majority of brexiters terrify the living daylights out of the average voter, eg look on any given media comment section.


    These are people who, for real, think the EU has ruined their lives and is the fourth reich.


    Brexit has become a religion for these people.
    Wouldn't it be funny to actually vote Brexit and then laugh at how they see their dreams fail?
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    (Original post by inhuman)
    Wouldn't it be funny to actually vote Brexit and then laugh at how they see their dreams fail?
    Not really. These people will never see it as their fault - it always be the EUs or some other entities fault. It is s religious movement.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Not really. These people will never see it as their fault - it always be the EUs or some other entities fault. It is s religious movement.
    Of course. But their dreams would still fail. Because most that they think this will achieve, will not happen. And it doesn't matter if they blame someone or something else.
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    (Original post by ihatePE)
    and the reasons to vote in? i dont follow these things cos eveyone is so biased about their stuff
    Well if we vote leave we can negotiate our own trade deal with South Korea and make it easier for Koreans to come and study and work here. Maybe get some more kpop stars to perform here XD
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    There are some very intelligent (if wrong IMHO) brexiters eg Dan Hannan.

    You're in a monoritu. Most brexiters regard INers as at best brainwashed and at worst Vichy style collaborators.
    I do see your point here - it does annoy me that some Brexiters make the Leave campaign look bad because they can be very closed-minded.
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    Prove what your saying.
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    "1. Freedom to make stronger trade deals with other nations. "
    Yes, but our main trade partners would be the USA, China and India. The USA's already trying to cheat us in the trade negotiations with the EU(TTIP), and they would try even harder to cheat us if we were alone in the negotiations. China's values and thoughts on human rights heavily conflict with our own, so while we might get a good deal money-wise, we may have to compromise on our base values in a trade deal with China. The same pretty much applies to India at the moment, though they seem to be slowly making reforms.(very slowly though)

    "2. Freedom to spend UK resources presently through EU membership in the UK to the advantage of our citizens"
    We either get out more than we put into the EU or we about break even, depending on what reports you read. Either way, ^ this is false or irrelevant.

    "3. Freedom to control our national borders."
    You mean freedom to be racist and deport all 'foreigners'? Woohoo?

    "4. Freedom to restore Britain’s special legal system."
    You mean you want us to be free from the European Courts' influence? Yeah, big problem with that: Then, who's going to hold our courts accountable if they mess up or do something we hate? Like maybe pass the Snoopers' Charter, now that the Tories have a full majority...

    "5. Freedom to deregulate the EU’s costly mass of laws."
    You mean the ones that protect our human rights and prevent monopolies? Yeah, sure, let's get rid of them, so that big corporations can feel free to treat us like dirt. Woo!!!

    "6. Freedom to make major savings for British consumers."
    We would make savings on goods from the new countries that we make deals with, yes, but we would also face heavy taxes for goods in EU countries, so overall, we would be making less savings.

    "7. Freedom to improve the British economy and generate more jobs."
    The EU isn't stopping us from doing that... If anything, it already gives us access to more jobs.

    "8. Freedom to regenerate Britain’s fisheries."
    This is fair, but the EU's already working to reform their Fisheries Policy, so we should just push for those reforms.

    "9. Freedom to save the NHS from EU threats to undermine it by harmonising healthcare across the EU, and to reduce welfare payments to non-UK EU citizens."
    Umm, you do realise the UK parliament's done much more damage to the NHS than the EU ever has? And we share other EU citizens' benefits from welfare payments when we visit other EU countries, though yes, we give more payments than most other countries, but we can make reforms there. (and btw, visiting other EU countries will get much easier soon as transport tech is making major strides, so don't try to tell me you'll never leave the UK)

    "10. Freedom to restore British customs and traditions."
    What does this even mean? The EU hasn't taken away any of our traditions. We've taken away some of our traditions ourselves because they were stupid. The EU's had nothing to do with it.
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    (Original post by Banana00)
    Pardon my incorrect quotation of what you said (not meant to be sarcastic!) - I realised what I was typing sounded weird but went with it anyway.

    With regard to 'sudden and sustained unemployment in the immediate time after leaving', how can you be so sure? There will be a time of uncertainty after the referendum whether we decide to stay or not, and as you say 'things would stabilise again in the long run', so why should we stay since you seem to be suggesting that in a few years everything will have evened itself out if we were to leave? Furthermore, what would make it more difficult to access jobs in foreign countries (I assume you are referring to European countries in particular) if we left the EU?
    Spoiler:
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    I'm sorry that I won't respond to you again tonight since I'm going to bed, but we might continue this discussion some other time?!? Goodnight
    Sorry too if anything I've said has come across in the wrong way. I'm just terrible at wording things.

    I've split your post into questions below.

    1. How can I be sure of unemployment?
    A: Since we joined the EU we have been creating jobs in partnership with different EU countries, as well as creating our own jobs still. If we left the EU these countries will have new sets of rules and regulations (UK rules) to go through to maintain business in the UK. They might decide it isn't worth the financial or time cost and simply redesign their business around the new EU, which would likely mean job losses in the UK. Personally I think many Remain voters overestimate the number of jobs that will be lost (they assume the worst case scenario), and Leave voters underestimate it (they assume a best case scenario). The reality is that there will be people losing their jobs, but we don't really know for sure how every single business will act and what will happen.

    2. How would the unemployment be sustained and fixed in the long run?
    There won't be new jobs appearing immediately after businesses move away, but over time (such as several years) new businesses will pop up in the UK and current businesses will expand to fill the void left by the vacated EU businesses. It will take time, but I do believe in the long run the UK work market can recover to something representative of what it was before, just with fewer opportunities from the EU. UK workers do lose out on a lot of income in the years during the recovery, and the rising unemployment means the loss of taxes (less money for the government to spend), which would cause chaos for public services and potentially for the quality of life in the UK. In this scenario we might see things such as benefits being cut, the NHS becoming more private, and homelessness increasing. Of course, I don't want to scaremonger, but no one in their right mind can say that these factors are immune to sudden changes in the job market. We simply don't know what might happen. With a conservative government currently in power they will likely be seeking to try to protect as many jobs as possible at the cost of everything else.

    3. Why could it be harder to access EU jobs if we left?
    We currently have a lot of work rights across the EU because we are a member of it. These work rights make our lives a million times easier and help protect us in jobs if we choose to work in an EU country. If we left these rights could be reduced, removed, or have an extra layer of bureaucracy added. It's unlikely they would just stay the same.

    Honestly, I have been on the fence about this referendum for a very long time and it's only recently when I researched deeply into all the facts, explored every possibility, and talked to people with so many different opinions that I came to the conclusion that staying in would be more beneficial. I do 100% agree that the leave campaign has some very strong arguments, and I would not blame anyone who voted out for thinking that was the best choice. The EU is certainly not perfect, and no one can say for sure if it costs us money to be in it or if we make money from it (I think it probably roughly balances out), but on the whole I see Remain as being better for the UK and its people than Leave.
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    (Original post by Jazzyboy)
    "1. Freedom to make stronger trade deals with other nations. "
    Yes, but our main trade partners would be the USA, China and India. The USA's already trying to cheat us in the trade negotiations with the EU(TTIP), and they would try even harder to cheat us if we were alone in the negotiations. China's values and thoughts on human rights heavily conflict with our own, so while we might get a good deal money-wise, we may have to compromise on our base values in a trade deal with China. The same pretty much applies to India at the moment, though they seem to be slowly making reforms.(very slowly though)

    "2. Freedom to spend UK resources presently through EU membership in the UK to the advantage of our citizens"
    We either get out more than we put into the EU or we about break even, depending on what reports you read. Either way, ^ this is false or irrelevant.

    "3. Freedom to control our national borders."
    You mean freedom to be racist and deport all 'foreigners'? Woohoo?

    "4. Freedom to restore Britain’s special legal system."
    You mean you want us to be free from the European Courts' influence? Yeah, big problem with that: Then, who's going to hold our courts accountable if they mess up or do something we hate? Like maybe pass the Snoopers' Charter, now that the Tories have a full majority...

    "5. Freedom to deregulate the EU’s costly mass of laws."
    You mean the ones that protect our human rights and prevent monopolies? Yeah, sure, let's get rid of them, so that big corporations can feel free to treat us like dirt. Woo!!!

    "6. Freedom to make major savings for British consumers."
    We would make savings on goods from the new countries that we make deals with, yes, but we would also face heavy taxes for goods in EU countries, so overall, we would be making less savings.

    "7. Freedom to improve the British economy and generate more jobs."
    The EU isn't stopping us from doing that... If anything, it already gives us access to more jobs.

    "8. Freedom to regenerate Britain’s fisheries."
    This is fair, but the EU's already working to reform their Fisheries Policy, so we should just push for those reforms.

    "9. Freedom to save the NHS from EU threats to undermine it by harmonising healthcare across the EU, and to reduce welfare payments to non-UK EU citizens."
    Umm, you do realise the UK parliament's done much more damage to the NHS than the EU ever has? And we share other EU citizens' benefits from welfare payments when we visit other EU countries, though yes, we give more payments than most other countries, but we can make reforms there. (and btw, visiting other EU countries will get much easier soon as transport tech is making major strides, so don't try to tell me you'll never leave the UK)

    "10. Freedom to restore British customs and traditions."
    What does this even mean? The EU hasn't taken away any of our traditions. We've taken away some of our traditions ourselves because they were stupid. The EU's had nothing to do with it.
    lolololololololol
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    (Original post by The gains kinggg)
    lolololololololol
    ? It's a fact that the Chinese government's policies for human rights and other ethical values heavily conflict with our own, i.e. they're horrible. I'm not being racist. That's just a fact of the world. China is well known for having awful human rights laws.(and for oppressing their people...)
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    (Original post by Jazzyboy)
    x
    'You don't want massive uncontrolled immigration into the UK? OMG you're such a racist!!!'
 
 
 
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