Turn on thread page Beta

Countdown to the Referendum: What We Should All Know About the EU vs. UK Independence watch

    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    First few minutes and I thought this was something lifted from David Icke's forum - or one of those Sovereign People sites!

    The rest is the normal old rubbish we've seen before. Totally mis-understanding the EU institutions, failed to look into EU treaties, open borders meaning we're swamped with militant muslims and we can't deport anyone, EU Army myth, All in it to further business interests, fails to mention rights and freedoms we get from the EU etc etc.

    No new material and it wasn't very compelling. Highlights for me:

    1) Obama is the worst US president in history. Hilarious. He claims to have American friends - one assumes they'll all be voting for Trump...

    2) At one point getting particularly angry and claiming that people voting to remain in the EU will be doing so totally unaware of what they will be losing. Ironic given the Brexit campaign is totally reliant on people being ok with leaving the EU and just hoping for the best in the future.

    His video description is full of links to Breitbart, The Express, and The Mail. In terms of being a shouty human form of those publications, yes, he totally smashed it.
    Totally. OP will be bringing out Alex Jones next.

    Actually decent militant atheists such as Christopher Hitchens and Richard Dawkins are all pro EU (RIp Hitch )

    But hey who cares what YouTube blogger thinks,!
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    YouGov News: EU referendum: Leave lead polling by 4 points


    BBC News: Major attacks Vote Leave 'deceit' as Johnson defends campaign

    "John Major hit out at 'squalid' and 'deceitful' [leave] campaign [and] predicted 'chaos' if Britain voted to leave"

    "He suggested .. Britain's contribution [after rebate/CAP] was "about one third" of the £350m claimed on the side of his Vote Leave battle bus"

    Foo Fact Check: (£18bn - £5bn {rebate} - £2.5bn {UK CAP}) / (350m x 52 weeks) = 57.7% vs. Major's 33.3% (1.d.p) i.e. almost two thirds


    "He insisted he was not making a personal attack .. [but] described Mr Johnson as a 'court jester' .. [and Vote Leave as a] 'hungry python'"

    "The Vote Leave campaign accused Sir John of resorting to 'name calling' rather than 'a serious debate about the issues'"

    "MP David Davis said Sir John's personal attacks on Mr Johnson and other Vote Leave figures were 'harsh' and 'not very wise'"

    "Matthew Elliott, director of the Leave campaign, said Sir John's comments were 'sad' and 'slightly mad'"



    "Mr Johnson said the Remain campaign had no 'long-term vision for the economy' if immigration continued at its current rate"

    "He predicted the UK's population [would, in the event of a vote to remain] rise 'inexorably', potentially as high as 80 million"

    "He said he had hoped Mr Cameron could address this in his EU renegotiation, but that the PM 'didn't get a sausage' from Brussels"
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    BBC News: EU referendum: Nigel Farage sex attack claims 'outrageous'

    "UKIP's leader [said] the risk of attacks like those in Cologne, Germany, would be 'the nuclear bomb' of the referendum campaign"

    "Mr Farage claimed women could be at risk because of 'very big cultural' issues between British society and migrants"

    "Asked whether .. Cologne could happen [here], he replied: 'depends if they get EU passports. It depends if we vote for Brexit or not. It is an issue'"

    "Tory MP Andrea Leadsom, who backs Brexit, said 'obviously that is just an outrageous thing to say .. I don't like that sort of campaigning at all'"

    "Michael Gove said.. 'he's made those remarks and I haven't made remarks like that and I won't make remarks like that'"

    Archbishop Welby said "it is an inexcusable pandering to peoples' worries and prejudices that's giving legitimisation to racism .. for political gain"

    "But Mr Farage also told the Telegraph the 'honesty and straightforwardness' of the prime minister was now being questioned by voters"
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by james813)
    Maybe it would help you a little to stop googling random facts
    His use of facts is seriously limited, as can be said for remainers in general - alas they're handicapped by this thing called reality

    look at the issues as a whole from an unbiased perspective
    Also not a terribly reasonable expectation e.g. given how moving the issue is for your average, young, wide eyed, overly emotional, idealist :woo:

    how the EU works, in what ways it has expanded, and the type of laws it is producing, also the rate it makes trade deals at
    In some cases worthwhile, for sure, good suggestion, but in most cases remainers are lost in their own little worlds - impervious to reality-bombs
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    yes foomp3, lol - but it was a serious point. I have reached the conclusion of supporting Brexit because I have investigated both sides of the argument (certainly don't claim to know everything) and think the EU is a broken system that inhibits us as a nation. The important thing is to make an informed decision, not get sucked into the propaganda on one side or another, and then go out to vote!
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Oh the irony of the Brexit camp headed b Boris johnson and Michael Gove claiming that they are anti establishment
    Got a referenced quote for that, son? :holmes:
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Got a referenced quote for that, son? :holmes:
    Several. Michael Gove for one claiming the EU was an elitist stitch up on sky questions, despite him being lord chancellor...


    The leave side with all their scaremongering have pathetically borrowed a tactic from the far left by claiming they are anti establishment. Boris Johnson and gove could hardly be more establishment.

    The victim complex of the leave side has been staggering.
    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    The people who appear on our news headlines are just a tiny proportion of the EU campaign. Before TB invented New Labour, a majority of the labour party supported Brexit. and it still makes sense imo, the green party have their own exit campaign. There's also huge support in the Conservative party and (surprisingly!) UKIP. So let's not decide based on who we dislike the least; as all parts of politics are genuinely split.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Davij038)
    EU expansion which Britain supported
    Wouldn't have thought Britain supported it; think you mean the relevant New Labour minister (presumably the 'disgraced' Jack Straw)*

    It is a good thing
    Unless you happen to have a problem with wages/employment terms being forced down and a larger deficit, East European organised crime gangs, people traffickers, and convicted killers entering/operating here with relative impunity, or feeling like an alien/intimidated in parts of your hometown

    was supported by those countries who signed up to membership
    Bit of a no-brainer really, wasn't it?- although in the case of countries like Hungary it was far from a landslide, and they have been less than enamoured with the EU since e.g. flouting the treacherous diktat of Brussels over absorbing millions of Muslim/Third World migrants a la the Migrant Crisis

    I'm quite happy with the laws it is producing
    You’re in a (presumably fairly small) minority, within a minority i.e. the portion of #Remain genuinely happy with EU laws

    I think that's price worth paying to get a better deal and remain in the single market
    The EU has rather a mixed record on getting ‘better deals’ for the EU, never mind for the UK!

    Trump is the only one supporting Brexit
    Who cares which Crony Capitalist US political leaders think we should #Brexit? Seen the UK polls lately?

    brexiters say they are part of an elite that hate Britain
    Not so much that the established order hates Britain (some want us to do well, others not so much) as the fact that they have a massive vested interest in maintaining the delicately balanced status quo for as long as possible before the European project finally, fully implodes

    we will be utterly alone in the world with countries that hate Britain
    Literally no idea where you’re pulling this garbage from – New Statesman, or are you just freestyle ranting?

    great Institutions and businesses have all been shown to be Vichy style collaborators
    How many Brexiters do you seriously think conceive of businesses/institutions that cooperate with the EU as being tantamount to Nazi collaborators? Really? :rolleyes:

    the idea that Cameron, trade unions, academics, businesses, the leaders of all our allies et al are all conspiring to destroy Britain is absurd and dangerous
    Who from #VoteLeave leadership has said they are "conspiring to destroy Britain"? Direct quote please :yy:
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Great response foo.mp3. Davij038 should quit pretty soon; I thought it was only politicians who treated everyone else as idiots and defended a cause by lying and pretending to support everything about it.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by james813)
    Great response foo.mp3. Davij038 should quit pretty soon; I thought it was only politicians who treated everyone else as idiots and defended a cause by lying and pretending to support everything about it.
    Where have I lied? I hope you have evidence for that slur.

    I don't support everything about it- CAP in particular is bad as is the way the migration crisis has been handled (though short of mining the sea and having having very repressive external borders (which would of course be seized upon by Outters as proof that the EU is the fourth reich) I have yet to hear an alternative.

    Everyone on the Remain side admit the EU isn't perfect- of course it isn't. Staying in will not solve all our problems. Only the Outters are presenting such a vision.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    Foo.mp3


    As we can't decide what Britain as an entity decides we have a thing called democracy in which individuals are elected to act what they believe rightly or wrongly is in the interests of their constituents. Sometimes, some individuals are corrupt and self serving. There are plenty on both sides of the debate and only the most idiotic of brexiters think that, as numerous UKIP fraudsters have shown.

    Nobody forces wages to be compressed (indeed the LSE produced a study showing this to be false). Stop supporting crony capitalists and passing the buck.

    Implying those things will be measurably changed if we leave the EU.

    Meh, Hungary still wants to be in the EU- I don't see how Hungary leaving will help anything.

    ... And you're in the minority of the minority that gets genuinely upset that the EU might levy a tax on bankers bonus's and may stop us importing weapons to Saudi Arabia.

    Sure (although I'd wager still better than what the UK would get alone) - this is because of getting consent from 28 states. Federalise the EU!

    Who cares which crony capitalist US president is supporting brexit? Well quite a few leading brexiters do, who think Crony Capitalist Reagan is a hero.

    Oh, and as the brexit gang think we'll get a better trade deal with the U.S. I'd say that's it's important...

    . Muh established order hates Britain less than your established order. Christ, how cynical are you? People on both sides are supporting it for a variety of reasons- some genuinely believe it is in Britains interest to remain as do some who think Britain should leave. Of course some have vested interests to stay- just as some have vested interests to get Britain to leave- or do you really think the many wealthy donors to brexit are being purely altruistic?


    Sure Goldman Sachs is sponsoring Remain (although their senior UK manager is supporting out), guess what? They also sponsor half the Tories campaigning for brexit and will continue to operate in the event of brexit. We can argue the toss about the best way to tackle the menace of TNCs - I accept that centralising power does increase the risk of corruption- but I also think that the alternative would be weakening our collective power and allowing other, even less accountable bodies to rule under the pretence of freedom.

    Murdoch isn't lying- he does want to take control back!
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Davij038)
    Where have I lied? I hope you have evidence for that slur.

    I don't support everything about it- CAP in particular is bad as is the way the migration crisis has been handled (though short of mining the sea and having having very repressive external borders (which would of course be seized upon by Outters as proof that the EU is the fourth reich) I have yet to hear an alternative.

    Everyone on the Remain side admit the EU isn't perfect- of course it isn't. Staying in will not solve all our problems. Only the Outters are presenting such a vision.

    I can't let you get away with rejecting wage compression or massively rising house prices compared to 30 years ago. That makes life a lot more difficult for ordinary workers, the National Living wage (not in fact a living wage) will help deal with that but also draw in many more immigrants. I'm not entirely blaming immigration as UK policy has made housing worse among other things, but open borders to any EU citizen - from failing euro countries - is a major reason to back brexit. So that's one lie.

    The way to solve the migrant crisis - bearing in mind people are drowning every day and people traffickers are profiting - is to have an incredibly tough approach and tell migrants if they come across the Mediterranean they will not be given refuge, and patrol the coasts of North Africa and Turkey to turn boats back before they can drown. Then take true refugees who get to safe camps into Europe - with proper background checks. That approach worked in Australia and it will save lives here.
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by james813)
    I can't let you get away with rejecting wage compression
    The LSE study shows that EU immigration doesn't compress wages because it is either in the top tier (doctors, bankers etc from Germany that are there because of a skill shortage) or from the lowest tier (agricultural workers from Slovakia say)- because these are not competive arenas for the British labour market it doesn't compress wages ( we don't hear of any doctors complaining that immigrants have taken all their jobs.

    On the lower end of the market- the foreign labour, Remainers have been accused of talking down British workers* who understandably do not want to work picking fruit all day for a pittance. This idea that British fruit pickers will suddenly get paid double when we leave the EU is for the dogs- and the eurosceptics know this.

    This when matched with our declining birth rate et al means one way or another we are dependant on immigration - I fear that the likes of Hannan who have no beef with immigration are instead more concerned about Regulation that guarantees EU workers protections from unscrupulous employers.

    *(unfairly in my opinion- if you want to see British workers get talked down- read what Priti Patrl has to say!)

    or massively rising house prices compared to 30 years ago. That makes life a lot more difficult for ordinary workers, the National Living wage (not in fact a living wage) will help deal with that but also draw in many more immigrants. I'm not entirely blaming immigration as UK policy has made housing worse among other things, but open borders to any EU citizen - from failing euro countries - is a major reason to back brexit. So that's one lie.
    A lie is something willingly known by the teller that is untrue. I do not think o am lying and I have the data behind my thinking to back up my assertion.

    As you rightly say, our housing crisis is self inflicted, for the rest see above.

    The way to solve the migrant crisis - bearing in mind people are drowning every day and people traffickers are profiting - is to have an incredibly tough approach and tell migrants if they come across the Mediterranean they will not be given refuge, and patrol the coasts of North Africa and Turkey to turn boats back before they can drown. Then take true refugees who get to safe camps into Europe - with proper background checks. That approach worked in Australia and it will save lives here.
    Again too simplistic- whilst you are right in that Australia's policy worked there is a different context there. See:

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016...rdian-briefing

    Also- on the 'points based Australian system'

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-conservatives
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    The head of the bank of England said immigration was compressing wages, but more importantly it makes sense - if you can employ someone who is willing to work much harder for low wages, then you will. And that's become the standard way of doing things.

    Not saying the answer is perfect or easy however it's immoral for Merkel to tell anyone they can cross the Mediterranean, letting them drown. We need to return boats to safe ports and tell them their only chance of asylum is to go to refugee camps and apply there. Also it means extremists can't get into Europe that way, as they tell us they want to.

    Regarding the 'points based system', Australia choose to increase their population (being a massive, underpopulated country) with the skills they want, so you have to have enough skills to qualify for a visa or citizenship. I suspect the UK would elect a government to reduce immigration (but that's up to us) so at the start of each year we would decide on a number for migration, then set the points system accordingly. So the argument that you can't control immigration based on skills because of what Australia does makes no sense.
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    The current President supports us staying in as does the person most likely to be the next President
    1) A weak and ineffectual leader who thinks it acceptable to casually debase the special relationship and threaten the UK with blackmail that amounts to one big fat, insulting, and off-the-cuff bluff, and in the context of the UK's unflinching support of its main ally through two terrible wars that amounted to little more than the brutish desire for revenge and geopolitical control on the part of US special interests and their deep government cronies

    2) An even weaker, far less principled, cretinous, die-cast Crony Capitalist deceitful wench who will say anything to get into office

    Forgive me if I am unconvinced by such glowing 'endorsements' of Project Fear (#Remain). It suits the purposes of the elites in Washington to keep the EU united, as a subservient block, with a common defence force/policy, nested within NATO. They're not stupid, they know full well that it's become a peaceful vehicle for German hegemony in Europe (hence their intelligence operatives have been [caught] infiltrating German political/diplomatic circles) and that it's far easier to impose regressive trade deals like TTIP on European countries in one foul swoop than it would be to do so with sovereign nations

    I thought the Brexit campaign opposed that type of foreign intervention?
    We welcome debate, and especially welcome inappropriate interventions on behalf of the powers that be (as it only adds to the sense that the British people are being patronised/dictated to by out of touch elites/outsiders regarding the opportunity to determine their Democratic destiny); the backlash from the general public in the wake of Obama's clumsy, plausibly instructed attempt to interfere/threaten the UK, along with Junker's sabre rattling, tells you all you need to know really - Brits would prefer foreign leaders to mind their own, or at least exercise a little decorum/restraint!
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    Vote Leave Campaign LIVE:

    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    ComRes analysis showed that those old enough to remember WW2, 75+ generation more inclined REMAIN than younger oldies

    Name:  Screen Shot 2016-06-19 at 13.25.33.png
Views: 151
Size:  222.7 KB
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Luckily there aren't enough xenophobes in the country to allow this country to leave the EU. Those who don't know will swing to remain and remain will win the referendum. Probably about 55% to 45%. And if we are very lucky UKIP and Britain First would disband.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    £350 million a week paid to the EU. Tax payers money should be spent in this country. We can use this money to fix our weak economy and build new trade deals with other countries. It is all possible. We could also control our borders and control immigration. Lets take back control, and we will see our economy improve, rather than run away from it for a very long time.

 
 
 

2,920

students online now

800,000+

Exam discussions

Find your exam discussion here

Poll
Should predicted grades be removed from the uni application process
Useful resources

Groups associated with this forum:

View associated groups

The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

Write a reply...
Reply
Hide
Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.