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    (Original post by Empyreal)
    I was really going to fall for this bait and answer your arguments, but then you started with the ad hominem and, after having the nerve to call me 'not too bright', proceeded to ignore even the most basic rules of grammar to give me an incoherent mess of an argument.

    The one point I'm compelled to mention is your assertion that I know no European Commissioners. Thank you for your patently false postulation.

    On the other hand, without Google, I would love for you to list me out even 5% of our 650 MPs that you claim to know so well. In fact, I have serious doubts you could even name more than 5 cabinet ministers, Cameron and Osborne excluded.

    Truly, each of your arguments sounds like you found it on page 4 of the Daily Mail.

    listen sonny jim i didnt even want to waste my time replying at all because i would guess from the way you write that youre a pretentious little sixth former or someone doing philosophy or something but as im a sucker i replied and i typed it quickly. fair enough, dont reply to any of the many valid arguments i made, instead fain insult and then call me an ignorant daily mail reader even though i linked you three articles, none of which were from the daily mail, but the BBC, the telegraph.
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    (Original post by JNDSAN)
    This is the fundamental point about democracy. If youre seriously asking me how undemocratic the EU is, thats fine by me, flaunt your ignorance, look it up, a 5-10 second google search actually would be enough to figure that one out but for how democractic OUR system is, ok the Westminster Model has its flaws, First Past the Post is a poor system, but there was a referendum in 2011 for AV and 65% said no. but you know the best part about the UK system? we know who our MPs are, because they all represent about 80 000 each compared to hundreds of thousands for the vast regions MEPs represent and after 5 years, we can kick them out! can we do that with EU commissioners? No, can you name any commissioners? No.
    I think you are conceding that the proportional representation system is more democratic than the first past the post system? Well, that is what is used in the election of MEPs. In fact, if you live in England it will probably be the only opportunity you get to vote by proportional representation.

    I'm not sure whether you are getting confused between MEPs and European Commissioners, since you seem to be mentioning them in exactly the same context. MEPs you can certainly vote for, and kick out, every five years. You can find your MEP pretty easily (in fact you've between three and eight to choose from):

    http://www.europarl.org.uk/en/your-meps.html

    European Commissioners are more like civil servants, and they are appointed (effectively) by the national governments of each member state - so it isn't surprising you don't get to elect them. Here's a list of all the European Commissioners there have ever been:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...by_nationality

    Here's a list of current commissioners, you'll note that there is one per member state:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe...ner#Portfolios
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    (Original post by JNDSAN)
    totally facetious argument - if you arrive by air you wont be bringing any weapons in will you, if you drive with a car stocked with Ak47s and get on a ferry you're almost guaranteed not to get checked - those coming from europe can do that.
    I think you didn't read the articles I pointed to. I'm sure it is unlikely that you could get on a plane with a suitcase full of machine guns. But I don't know what you are advocating - that the UK only allows visitors in via air transport, or that the Good Ship UK sets sail down to the South Atlantic so that no one wants to visit anyway.

    The fact is that in or out of the EU our border regime for people visiting from Europe is unlikely to change. We aren't going to require visas and we aren't going to search every car getting off a ferry.

    Oh, back to the articles I posted, one of them was about someone importing guns through Parcelforce (I think it said the police believe there are five Uzis floating around London as a result), and there have been many other plots of this kind (using parcel or postal services).

    Look at it another way: plenty of illegal drugs end up in the UK. That isn't because of the EU or because of the Schengen area, it is because smugglers will try to get around whatever regime the government puts in place.
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    (Original post by nutz99)
    As opposed to the pig shagging lying twunt that we have at the moment.
    Lesser of two evils
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    Did anyone read about the Spanish banks hitting fever pitch yesterday?


    Banco Popular, one of the Spain's leading financial firms, caused mayhem after admitting that it needed billions to bolster its balance sheet. Shocked investors dumped shares in the firm, with the bank stock's value plunging by 24 per cent this morning, after the cash call and plans to issue another 2 billion shares.It resulted in €1.4billion being wiped off the value of the bank's share price.And the worry spread to other Spanish banks with shares in Caixabank and Banco de Sabadell diving by 3.4 per cent and 4.5 per cent respectively. It comes after the country announced record debt levels, owing its creditors €1.095 trillion.

    It will be Italy and France next.......

    ..but guess who will have to help bail out any EU banks which fail.....yes ..us ...if we remain in the EU.....but in 2007 / 8 the EU did not help to bail our Banks which were in trouble....we were on our own.....who does not want BREXIT.....only fools
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    It's just such a shame that it probably will be a remain. Can't see the faces of all you Leavers being shown to be complete muppets when leaving blows up in your face and almost nothing you hope for will occur.
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    (Original post by Rover73)
    Did anyone read about the Spanish banks hitting fever pitch yesterday?


    Banco Popular, one of the Spain's leading financial firms, caused mayhem after admitting that it needed billions to bolster its balance sheet. Shocked investors dumped shares in the firm, with the bank stock's value plunging by 24 per cent this morning, after the cash call and plans to issue another 2 billion shares.It resulted in €1.4billion being wiped off the value of the bank's share price.And the worry spread to other Spanish banks with shares in Caixabank and Banco de Sabadell diving by 3.4 per cent and 4.5 per cent respectively. It comes after the country announced record debt levels, owing its creditors €1.095 trillion.

    It will be Italy and France next.......

    ..but guess who will have to help bail out any EU banks which fail.....yes ..us ...if we remain in the EU.....but in 2007 / 8 the EU did not help to bail our Banks which were in trouble....we were on our own.....who does not want BREXIT.....only fools
    And the last crisis wasn't propagated by the financial center of the world, London?
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    I understand very well how the last credit crisis began, and who was responsible, but thats a different topic, and has nothing whatsoever to do with bailing out a number of other countries, when its only a matter of time before one of them leaves and the EU disintegrates anyway.

    Dont think that wont happen. It will.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    They do none of those things

    1) protectionism and very heavy regulations are not good for economies, especially in such a globalised world.

    2) leaving the EU is not the same as closing the borders. Selecting which workers are let in based on needs is not the same as not letting anybody in. These people don't necessarily come here because we are in the EU, they come here because we have the jobs and they have the skills, why else do so many come from outside the EU?

    Actually most of our rights were either written and passed entirely independently of the EU, or we were one of the major forces in writing the EU legislation. We have a long record of human rights and far more freedoms than many allegedly progressive EU states, particularly on religious freedoms.

    4) if Murdoch gets ignored in Brussels he isn't lobbying very well, although it's more likely because he's foreign. When you get an unelected few (because they believe democracy dangerous) creating the rules after being lobbied by big business who know they can get regulations so they don't have to be competitive you can hardly say that they battle corruption because in a few cases people do better lobbying in Westminster.

    5) like the rest of the remain campaign you do enjoy playing down Britain, the fifth biggest Economy in the world, one of the fastest growing economies in the major developed world, a nuclear power, a permanent member of the unsc, special relationship with the USA, the greatest soft power in the world and second greatest hard power, strong diplomatic ties with massive swathes of the world, founding and key member of NATO, need I go on? But of course, that all means nothing, the only thing that gives us influence is EU membership, our ties with the second slowest growing continent who can't even deal with internal problems and those on the doorstep.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Yea about that, how does the President's anus taste these days?
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    (Original post by SHallowvale)
    Er, what?

    No, I wouldn't want to move to Bulgaria, Greece or Portugal. If I were to move to another EU country it'd probably be somewhere like France, Denmark or Sweden.

    What point are you trying to make? Do you think that the UK is the greatest country in the EU and that everyone else is below us? In terms of the minimum wage and general standards of living Denmark and Sweden are far ahead of us.
    That is exactly his point, and something I have found many Leavers to be the bottom line of their opinion. They believe Britain is superior and hence having to share decision making, etc. riles them to no limit.
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    Norway is part of the single market, has free movement of people and is answerable to the EU via the EFTA Court. Oh, and it pays into the EU to have access to the single market and has no say in how legislation in the EU is developed. Norway also has a small population and large oil reserves.
    This is what I love about TSR. Some ignorant muppet getting rekt.
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    (Original post by The gains kinggg)
    lol, considering i used to live there you are wrong buddy
    They are above the UK in the 2012 PISA study...

    And what about the glorified Norway? The stellar example of how well Britain will do once it leaves the shackles of the EU behind. They are below the UK
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    (Original post by Empyreal)
    It's abundantly clear you're listing things which you have no idea about, so I ask you a few questions:
    In what way do you believe security improves when we leave the EU?

    Have you read a single economic report except the one done by 'Economists for Brexit', which turned out to be full of inconsistencies anyway?

    How 'undemocratic' do you think the EU is, and then how 'democratic' do you think the UK is by comparison?



    Now this is more like it.
    Britons are finally realising that the UK hasn't been 'great' in 100 years and are upset that we no longer control half the world, so they think that by becoming 'sovereign' again, we'll somehow become more powerful.

    During the industrial revolution, before we had competition, we were strong and powerful enough to be sovereign. Industry now makes up just 19% of our labour force; there's no way we can go back to the old days, and people are just bitter.
    Real talk.
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    (Original post by JNDSAN)
    Part 2: again im not gonna write a lot of address all your points, but i'll do the fundamentals.

    Firstly, I saw you said in another comment that "in a 5-10 second google search you can find that only 7-15% of our laws are from europe".

    1.) you have issues of acting like a condescending prick and to make it worse you have no right to as you clearly dont seem too bright
    I won't reply to your post because it will be the same biased, ignorant stuff as before. Just commenting on this. Of course he comes across as condescending, because that's what you come across when you have to correct the ignorance of others.
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    I'd say some of the benefits are:

    1) Freedom of movement. Being able to work and live anywhere in Europe. Ok, so I might not be too keen on some EU states (yet) but others are very attractive.

    2) Cheap holidays - I can fly cheaply because of the EU, borders are easy to cross with my UK passport and I don't need a visa. When I go on holiday in the EU, I can use my European Health Insurance if I need to.

    3) Cheaper roaming charges for when I'm on my travels.

    4) Consumer protection. A two year guarantee on products. And if I am treated unfairly and disagree with what the business has said, it's now easier to complain to an impartial body without going to court. The EU's ADR directive has ensured greater access to out of court schemes. Now the UK already had some of these - but the EU has increased the number and made the existing ones more efficient.

    5) Workers rights. Like equal pay and rights for pregnant workers.
    1. I hear so many say i love being able to work in other EU countries. Have you lived and worked in an another EU country?

    2. Cheap holidays.. seriously? Tunisia, Turkey, Egypt... all cheaper holidays than Europe and that was pre widespread Islamist terror driving prices down.

    3. "You will save £4 on a 10 minute phonecall" - David Cameron ... wooooooo ... the fact that cheaper roaming charges is a point to stay shows you grasp nothing of what we give away.. nevermind the taxes they take elsewhere, tampon tax ladies?

    4..5 - So we could not have progressive rights outside the EU?
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You mean the man that will likely be pm if we remain?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    If the nation chooses to stay I really can't imagine the Tories would put forward someone who wanted to leave.
    Likewise if we leave, it should be a brexiter to handle the exit.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)

    4..5 - So we could not have progressive rights outside the EU?
    I would certainly not trust uber right wing anti-union Boris Johnson to ensure them.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I would certainly not trust uber right wing anti-union Boris Johnson to ensure them.
    Thats fine... do you think the UK people will throw a backlash and remove uber right wing anti-union Boris Johnson if he doesnt ensure them?

    And yano, vote for somebody who does ensure them?
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    (Original post by InnerTemple)
    Can you really imagine the Tories letting Boris lead the party? At the moment, the conservatives have had a pretty good run in painting Corbyn as an oddball loony.

    They'd have no right to do so should they have the moronic buffoon that is Boris as their leader.
    Well, yeah, of the Brexiters he is the most likely to get onto the part ballot and he is then miles ahead of George
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    (Original post by typonaut)
    There is obviously a balance between different things going on here: do we want some food security (ie be assured of our supply) against how much do we want to pay for such. Or do we want farmers to be the "guardians" of the countryside, and are we prepared to subsidise them to do that?

    I understand the point you are making. But there has also been a long standing subsidy to employers via low minimum wage levels and top-ups with social security payments.

    At the same time I don't see many Brexiteers arguing that they are going to reduce farm subsidies - they are just saying that they will take the money going to Brussels and redistribute it themselves.
    In reality they likely will fall, especially when a Labour government eventually gets in, it won't be an immediate cut but I would expect the subsidies to gradually fall
 
 
 
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