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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    What I mean by robbing us is making us pay them +8.5 billion pounds every week to the EU. This money could have been used on improving our own economy, make new businesses, jobs, etc.
    You pay because you get the benefits of trade. Have you ever seen a club of any sort not charge a fee?

    If you leave, and if we are to consider the unlikely possibility that you'll be granted a new deal, you'd still have to pay like anyone else.

    Simple concepts.

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    It's much easier to stay in now and maybe leave later if things get awful than leave now and never be allowed back in surely?
    We haven't been independent since the 70s; a lot has changed since then
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    What I mean by robbing us is making us pay them +8.5 billion pounds every week to the EU. This money could have been used on improving our own economy, make new businesses, jobs, etc.
    8 and a half billion quid a week?
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    If you want to be living with your parents until you're 50 - Vote Remain.

    If you want to be able to afford to buy your own home - Vote LEAVE.
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    (Original post by Sisuphos)
    Tens of thousands of people didn't have to die and families destroyed for UK's "independence".
    I'm pretty sure that's what the last treasury forecast predicted for when we leave

    Donald Tusk just said it'd end Western civilisation too.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    Can you please actually debate for your claim, instead of making insults upon insults with conviction?

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    Its not a claim, nor an invitation for a debate. It is my opinion, which I am entitled to.
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    (Original post by IFoundWonderland)
    Why do you take issue with the possibility of a European superstate? You've identified it as an issue, but not explained why.
    because UK policy will continuously be derived from europe and not the UK and hence we will have less of a say. a european super state is obviously a withering away of UK local democracy. also, we'll have more uncontrolled immigration with more and more eastern european countries (and turkey) joining. the EU will also likely have way too much power, i.e. having its own military, and making the UK and france fork over their seats at the UN security council in favour of simply an EU or "U.S.E" seat there, just like for the WTO. also, why do I take issue with an EU super state? because nobody bloody wants it in this country, and they never will - all we voted for was a customs union in 1975, NOT a super state that fused economics with politics.

    Also, what do you mean by 'health of the nation state'?
    I meant the political and constitutional health, relating to democracy and legitimacy. if the people have less power, then obviously the health of their state is bad, because legitimacy and consent is how you ought to assess the healthiness of a government - hence, norway and switzerland are healthier, politically, than cuba or vietnam

    Also, could you expand on your description of the EU as 'undemocratic'. Ofc I'm aware of the traditional argument that says EU officials are unelected (*I am not disputing that this is undemocratic*), I was just wondering if you had anything to add to this.
    well, there's that - the EU commissioners are appointed, not elected. the EU president is "elected" (rubber stamped, and they don't get to propose who it is, they have to just say yes or no, and there's not a mandate to say either from the voters because no MEP campaigns on these issues) by a powerless parliament. the parliament itself cannot propose, amend or reject legislation independently and it is the commission hence that has all the de facto power; if the entirely of the EU parliament wanted to get rid of all EU directives/regulations, they couldn't do anything because they don't have the constitutional power to do this. next, I could say that the EU makes about half our laws - half of our laws come from not our democratically elected parliament but rather a very non-democratic body like the EU. this is where you say "well we can leave when we want, therefore it is 100% democratic" - that's an oxymoron because "we've" (not me) voted to have no vote, in one sense, over half our laws.
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    (Original post by BanterBus69)
    If you want to be living with your parents until you're 50 - Vote Remain.

    If you want to be able to afford to buy your own home - Vote LEAVE.
    These scare tactics are irrational......thanks for the laugh though.
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    (Original post by Frankie32)
    These scare tactics are irrational......thanks for the laugh though.
    It's simple supply and demand. Surely you learn that in Economics, Frankie? 330,000 immigrants come to the UK each year (the equivalent of Coventry), so where are we going to house them?
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    (Original post by BanterBus69)
    It's simple supply and demand. Surely you learn that in Economics, Frankie? 330,000 immigrants come to the UK each year (the equivalent of Coventry), so where are we going to house them?
    Congratulations for as you put it, knowing 'simple economics'. It makes you appear extremely intelligent. Yes, that was a hyperbole. I guess you will know that because you know your 'simple stuff' because you're a 'simple' person with a 'simple' brain and a 'simple' life. You're so simple you have no idea how to make an argument. You claim a stat with no source. That is like speaking to me in morse code. So here is a message you may understand. If we leave the EU we will be making this signal: ...---... to all other nations if we leave the EU.
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    (Original post by BanterBus69)
    It's simple supply and demand. Surely you learn that in Economics, Frankie? 330,000 immigrants come to the UK each year (the equivalent of Coventry), so where are we going to house them?
    Only you're exclusively talking about demand for housing, not supply. Supply of housing must increase to keep up with demand in the long-run. Short-term, you might see a mild increase in rent (migrants don't really buy homes in the short-run so I'm mostly referring to rental properties) but in the long-run, "Economics" teaches you that supply must expand to meet demand.
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    (Original post by Frankie32)
    Congratulations for as you put it, knowing 'simple economics'. It makes you appear extremely intelligent. Yes, that was a hyperbole. I guess you will know that because you know your 'simple stuff' because you're a 'simple' person with a 'simple' brain and a 'simple' life. You're so simple you have no idea how to make an argument. You claim a stat with no source. That is like speaking to me in morse code. So here is a message you may understand. If we leave the EU we will be making this signal: ...---... to all other nations if we leave the EU.
    http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/stat...ion-statistics

    The headline net migration figure for the UK is updated quarterly. The latest estimate released is that total net migration to the UK in the year ending December 2015 was 333,000.
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    (Original post by Sisuphos)
    Only you're exclusively talking about demand for housing, not supply. Supply of housing must increase to keep up with demand in the long-run. Short-term, you might see a mild increase in rent (migrants don't really buy homes in the short-run so I'm mostly referring to rental properties) but in the long-run, "Economics" teaches you that supply must expand to meet demand.
    And demand isn't keeping up...
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    (Original post by BanterBus69)
    http://www.migrationwatchuk.org/stat...ion-statistics

    The headline net migration figure for the UK is updated quarterly. The latest estimate released is that total net migration to the UK in the year ending December 2015 was 333,000.
    Migration has been a frequent affair in the UK for over a decade. It brings benefits too.

    Education
    Supporting the NHS
    Economic benefits
    Developed Skill gaps

    Now if you think that we need to completely block migration then go ahead, vote Leave. But with the EU we can limit migration with reforms.....Not cut it off completely like you are ridiculously implying.
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    (Original post by Frankie32)
    Migration has been a frequent affair in the UK for over a decade. It brings benefits too.

    Education
    Supporting the NHS
    Economic benefits
    Developed Skill gaps

    Now if you think that we need to completely block migration then go ahead, vote Leave. But with the EU we can limit migration with reforms.....Not cut it off completely like you are ridiculously implying.
    We need to CONTROL immigration not block it completely. The only way to do this is by controlling our borders and the only way we can do this is OUTSIDE the EU.

    By the way, do you have any "sources" for these so-called benefits that migrants bring to education and the NHS.
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    (Original post by BanterBus69)
    And demand isn't keeping up...
    I assume you mean supply. If so then it's not to do with immigration. The property market must be reformed along with the economy in general (if investment is low which I don't know if it is, I take your word for it).
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    (Original post by Sisuphos)
    I assume you mean supply. If so then it's not to do with immigration. The property market must be reformed along with the economy in general (if investment is low which I don't know if it is, I take your word for it).
    Foreign oligarchs are buying up our housing. At present, more than 130 of the 214 apartments sold in the 50-storey St George Wharf Tower (the tallest residential building in the UK) in Vauxhall are believed to be owned by overseas investors. This drives the prices up for young people. Do you want to be living with your parents till you are 50 years old?

    Source: http://moneyweek.com/st-george-wharf...s-empty-tower/
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    (Original post by Trill)
    Its not a claim, nor an invitation for a debate. It is my opinion, which I am entitled to.
    to which I am entitled.*

    I never disputed your entitlement.
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    (Original post by Frankie32)
    Migration has been a frequent affair in the UK for over a decade. It brings benefits too.

    Education
    Supporting the NHS
    Economic benefits
    Developed Skill gaps

    Now if you think that we need to completely block migration then go ahead, vote Leave. But with the EU we can limit migration with reforms.....Not cut it off completely like you are ridiculously implying.
    What? A Brexit doesn't mean to cut off migration altogether.
    It simply means the UK can control immigration; filter the people who can come in or who are allowed in, it means the allowance of greater background checks usw. usf. It simply means we're not obligated to allow EU citizens through in most circumstances.
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    (Original post by BanterBus69)
    We need to CONTROL immigration not block it completely. The only way to do this is by controlling our borders and the only way we can do this is OUTSIDE the EU.

    By the way, do you have any "sources" for these so-called benefits that migrants bring to education and the NHS.
    What annoys me about the EU referendum is that the people who are voting leave are forgetting the main reason the European Union was created. It was created as a method to stop European wars that were leading to world wars. My main source as to why being in the EU is much better is because Britain has not been in a world war or a European war since being a member. If we leave the EU we undermine this purpose. Britain is becoming more nationalistic which was a cause for world war 1 and 2. Leaving the European union seems like a solution because we will have control of our budget but this is short term. Our budget will dramatically decrease without the single market and excellent trade which the European union allows.

    I watched question time the other day and Boris Johnson made a statement that leaving the EU will make lower income households richer. SO WHY DOES HE WANT TO LEAVE. It makes no sense. He is simply lying to the public( which is a trend in conservative politics) providing us with things we want to hear. We need to gather our own sources. You are correct. Your stat is relevant but it has been strategically picked by the leave campaign to highlight a reason to leave. In reality to leave is good in a very short term but in the longer term it will be disastrous. We will isolate ourselves against a developing power that we could have been part of. We could even cause other nations to leave the EU by undermining it if we leave and this could easily cause another European war or world war. (just look at Russia's behavior at the euro cup, not a member and are attacking other nations on a wide scale most likely due to national pride.) That is the main reason I want to remain as it is historically proven so far that the EU has minimized the number of European wars.
 
 
 
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